OK, I get BF, but am totally fucked off with the smugness

[FunnysInTheGarden]

Most of us are failed BF, but the tone on here recently has really pissed me off. We generally FF? Non? So why the smug shit and the passive aggressiveness towards those who have to/chose to FF?

So tempted to name names, but I won't.

Just stop being so smug and holier than thou please, some people

"Tab yes I do. Why else would you post so prolifically on FF discussions when you are clearly so anti FF?"

OK - now we have the heart of the matter.

What the hell are you really accusing me of funny.

I am anti the formula companies advertising and lack of proper on pack info.

I am anti the FF-culture in this country.

I bother to provide info about formula here because I struggled to find info about formula when I needed it.

I was shocked to find that formula was not sterile.

Are you accusing me of lying?

Do you think that my DS was not diagnosed failure to thrive at 4 weeks and that bought some formula and we went and had tests in hospital and said "we'd better try this hadn't we".

F hell - in the absence of (much) expressed milk from me/donor milk - formula saved DS. He put on about a 1lb in a weekend.

mrsgf, i'm with you. Honestly think you need to get some councilling funny.

If you google Dundee cohort you will find a longitudinal study of 10,000 babies, I think which shows that ff babies are 5x more likely to be hospitalised for several childhood illnesses.
PS get over yourself, funny.

You can be pro FF and anti FF companies.

Sorry OP, but the attack on tab is just plain bizarre and severely wrong. FWIW I breastfeed, but don't consider myself smug more lucky. tbh I was looking for excuses to stop BF, but my situation was never bad so had no reason to.

You know in many other areas of parenthood, e.g. child sleeping in separate room, people get flamed for not carrying out the advice that's shows minuscule risk differences.

sorry meant to add, it's about ensuring information is given (as companies and HCPs don't offer it) and letting parents judge for themselves.

It's the same with BF, we need to tell each other of the normal problems because the HCPs don't.

Funnys, you want evidence, but when it's given you complain that it's making ffers feel bad.

So which is it??? Please please answer that. Do you want evidence or do you want to live in ignorance?

Not from Funnys, can't remember who:

"the BF lobby are trying as hard as they might to make BF seem so very attractive and FF the opposite. What I would like to see is a level playing field."

Please please read the politics of breastfeeding. The playing field is anything but level. Product with £multi million advertising budgets behind it vs product that is available free and only charities and public funded bodies have any interest in promoting.

You see on mn I'm always seeing stuff about smug bf'ers but this so does not translate into my RL experiences.

If anything its the other way round.

With ds2 I was under a lot of pressure to FF as he was in NICU and struggled with weight gain initially.

With DD who I'm still bf at 14 months its pretty much a guilty secret that I tell very few people about because I know a lot of people find it a bit odd.

I totally downplay the fact I bf - am happy to offer advice if its asked for but would never make anyone feel inferior for the choices they make. Its their choice to make.

I've never encountered smuggery either here or in real life, tbh.

Ds 1 was ff
Ds2 bf

I am so proud of bfing, but smug, never, because I know how bloody difficult it is to establish bfing.

I have to say I have come up against more negativity for bfing than I ever did for ffing. Few people round here bf at all.

Here is a summary of the Scottish study. Apologies for the figure of 10,000 I shouldn't be posting at 2am from bed. That is the Five-Yearly Infant Feeding Survey yhw next one which is this year. (and before I get accused of spurious propaganda. )You can find this on www.nhsis.co.uk/breastfeed/

Does Breastfeeding improve the health of Scottish children? (Dr Stewart Forsyth)

This important question is being addressed by a research team in Dundee who are studying the relationship of childhood health to the type of diet the children received during infancy. Their study began in 1983, when 750 pregnant women from Dundee were invited to take part. Following the birth of their baby the research team visited them regularly at home and recorded many details on type of infant feeding and frequency of illness as well as other relevant social and family data. The information that was gathered was carefully analysed and the results clearly demonstrated that breast fed children had markedly less diarrhoea, vomiting and respiratory illness during the first year of life compared to children who were bottle fed. It was also shown that bottle fed infants were 5 times more likely than breast fed infants to be admitted to hospital with diarrhoea and vomiting illnesses.

At the age of 7 years the children were seen again and information was obtained on respiratory illnesses, growth, weight and blood pressure. Children who had been exclusively breast fed during the first 4 months of life were reported to have had significantly fewer respiratory illnesses during childhood compared to bottle fed infants. The breast fed children were also found to have less body fat and lower blood pressures than children who had been bottle fed.

This most recent information is of particular relevance to the health of the Scottish population as there is a very high incidence of heart disease, stroke and diabetes in Scotland and obesity and high blood pressure are recognised risk factors for these conditions. The children taking part in the Dundee study are currently being seen again at the age of 15 years to see if there are early signs of these diseases and to relate the findings to their diet during infancy.

There is now considerable international interest in the results of the Dundee Infant Feeding Study, as it has clearly demonstrated that the health benefits of breast feeding extend beyond the period of infancy and into later childhood. Current and future studies will be exploring the possibility of breast feeding influencing health during adult life.

(The above text is a summary of key aspects of the study by Dr S Forsyth)
References:
Howie PW, Forsyth JS, Ogston SA, Clark A, Florey C du V. Protective effect of breast feeding against infection. BMJ 1990; 300: 11-6.

Forsyth JS, Ogston SA, Clark A, Florey C du V, Howie PW. The relation between early introduction of solid food to infant illnesses and their weight during the first two years of life. BMJ 1993; 306: 1572-6.

Wilson AC, Forsyth JS, Greene SA, Irvine L, Hau C, Howie PW. Relation of infant diet to childhood health: seven year follow up of cohort of children in Dundee infant feeding study. BMJ 1998; 316: 21-5

Excellent post Foxytocin

I'm proud to still be BF at 13 months after a horrific start which included my HV coming roud with a bottle and carton of formula to 'see how we go'.

But like someone else said, it's my 'guilty secret'. I don't tell new people I meet, don't feed in public, always give a stock 'we're thinking of giving up soon' answer to those that ask when I'm going to give up. I don't want to give up, I love cuddling the baby and listening to his snuffly noises while he feeds.

I've only skim read this thread and I'm sure this has been said, but I do think that people should be able to make their own informed choices on feeding their baby, and this may include talking about how BF is generally better for many reasons for your baby. For lots of reasons FF may work out for some people too. So it's personal choice.

How sad that a site which is there to provide support has become such a slagging match. I can completely understand why though as Bfing is such an emotive subject and mum's are put in such difficult positions at a time when they are already hormonal and sleep deprived. There is such a perceived push to BF from all the poster campaigns etc but there isn't the support where it is really needed- ie those initial few days in hospital. My experience for both my DC was not the best start to maintain BFing. I fortunately managed for 10 months with DS but am struggling with DD and am mix feeding. The problem there is that there is also an anti FF culture and I find myself when I need to feed DD when I'm out feeling like do I get my boob out and get really stressed and embarrassed as DD falls on and off for an hour or more and still is not fully fed or do I get out a bottle and feel I have to justify to people that yes I am trying to BF and that I don't really want to give my LO formula and that I'm not really a terrible mother but just want to get my LO fed. I'm probably more judgemental on myself than anyone seeing me bottle feeding but that's because ashamedly I was one of those judgemental people when I had hammered into me a BF support groups how rubbish FF is.

There is a lot still unknown about BF and most of the "evidence" is observational which is not scientific proof. on my own observations my EBF DS had eczema and CMPI, I have 2 friends who BF and still got breast cancer. DH and I were FF are rarely I'll and have 4 degrees between us ( no Low IQs here).

We should just give support regardless of feeding method. slagging each other off is not helpful and neither Is telling FF mothers they don't need help they should just read the back of the tin. Judge not lest thee be judged! I've learnt this to my own shame :0(

err actually jan most of the evidence is scientific and not actually based on your dh and 2 kids.

oh and your 2 friends.

show me the randomized placebo controlled trial oh no there isn't one because it impossible an unethical to do! The quoted Scottish study is based entirely on statistics of the observations when undoubtedly there will be confounding factors and differences in the two populations. It is very difficult to get robust scientific evidence from these kinds of studies. I know my personal experiences are not where evidence comes from FFS but on a larger scale they are mine and hundreds of others, although no they're from highly selected populations which makes the evidence even less robust. It's not as black and white as we are led to believe. As one who understands the pitfals of scientifc research I don't believe everything that I read just because it has been published without interigating the methodology first.

make that double blinded randomized placebo controlled!

I don;t know who the smug posters are; I haven't encountered them, and if there is obvious smugness, it gets jumped upon very quickly.

I don't think I ever see bfing discussed outside of the breast and bottle feeding forum.

funny, i've read half the thread and can't bear it any more. it seems to me that you should go away and do some reading, tbh. there is a small chance that your baby will get seriously sick from incorrectly made up formula, but once your child has the bacteria that is usually killed by the hot water, there is over a fifty per cent chance that the child will die. your bad, as the young people say, if you can't be arsed boiling a kettle...

and re the diaorhea etc, that's not in dispute, surely? where's welliemum, she used to be very clear about the links. (being a scientist and doctor, she was pretty handy with a medical fact). must try to hail her elsewhere.

i was/am a failed bfer, it's fair enough to be cross about that (although at some point you really just have to grow up as a mother and get over it) but your anger is directed at COMPLETELY the wrong people here, you know.

oh i see foxy has come up with the dundee evidence, good. interested to hear your apology response, funny.

btw am not disputing the risk for d&v that's just common sense and the reason to ensure FF is made up properly. Am disputing the perception that you will have more sickly, lower IQ child who is less well bonded with his her parents if he/ she is FF

hey, you might jandnmum, but it might be a point or ten lower, a percent or some less well-bonded, a percent or two more sickly etc, so who cares in non-chaotic families where love is in abundance? really, those of us sufficiently interested in our children to post on mn are not the ones, by and large, who will create children who will suffer notably.

it doesn't mean it's not the best way, however, and certainly it should not be being undermined by hcps as it currently is.

btw funny, it's not salmonella to be worried about, it's e sakazakii, it was after the babies' deaths from necrotizing fascitis in belgium and france that the guidelines were changed.

Aitch - it's interesting that the deaths in Belgium lead to the advice on how to make up formula being changed, because I've only seen friends using Evian water to make up bottles - not boiled water - apparently on the advice of their health visitors etc.

If you are in any doubt about the ethics of formula manufacturers in the UK and overseas, read The Politics of Breastfeeding by Gabrielle Palmer.

Formula companies are not in it for altruistic reasons, why would they be? They are capitalist organisations who are in it because there is a lot of money to be made and increasing bf rates would eat away at their (huge) profits.

Hence why formula is often sold with an 80% mark up, when it's just modified, powdered cows milk. That's approximately £8 a tin (or more, for some brands)

It angers me because whether you chose to FF in the first place or you were unable to sustain bf, you are then tied into lining the pockets of these multi-million pound corporations without having any choice in the matter.

that is weird, isn't it? do they make them up and drink immediately? because i think that is still within the guidelines (albeit second-best to killing bacteria outright) because the bacteria doesn't have time to breed.