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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

Original poster

OK, I get BF, but am totally fucked off with the smugness

604 replies

FunnysInTheGarden · 19/09/2010 22:33

Most of us are failed BF, but the tone on here recently has really pissed me off. We generally FF? Non? So why the smug shit and the passive aggressiveness towards those who have to/chose to FF?

So tempted to name names, but I won't.

Just stop being so smug and holier than thou please, some people

OP posts:
kitkat2507 · 07/10/2010 09:32

im considering FF feeding my baby when she arrives, could someone point me in the direction of the research which proves formula is the cause of many diseases and makes babies ill, I would be interested to read before i make an informed desicion on the best way to feed my baby.

Whitethorn · 07/10/2010 10:26

KitKat2507
There is no research that properly prepared formula makes children ill.

However as someone who gave up breast feeding (at 11 weeks) I read through a lot of research and came to the conclusion that breast is best because it is simply more natural. The empirical data is sketchy - for and against - but really breast feeding has to be better than a man made substitute. I thought of it as the same way free range rather than battery farmed chickens are better.

To make my choice I just had to live with that and move on. I dont kick myself everytime I give my daughter some sort of processed food but I know full well that the stuff I make myself is much much better.

Hope that helps.

tiktok · 07/10/2010 10:27

kitkat - best source of research (and there is a lot) is a website such as www.babyfriendly.org.uk which you can browse and then follow up on the aspects that interest you most.

You could also look at NHS Choices' Behind the Headlines section www.nhs.uk/News/Pages/NewsIndex.aspx and search on relevant terms - this is a good way of getting an assessment of media stories.

There are some links about the risks of formula here: www.kellymom.com/nutrition/milk/infant-formula.html

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/o/cochrane/clsysrev/articles/CD003517/frame.html is the cochrane review on how long to bf exclusively.

When reading any research on infant feeding, you need to bear in mind that 'benefits' of breastfeeding are actually 'risks' of formula. So it's not so much that breastfeeding (for example) reduces the risk of gastrointestinal infection, but formula feeding increases the risk.

Hope this helps.

tiktok · 07/10/2010 10:32

Whitehorn - there is no research that 'proves' a cause-effect in individual babies, but there is no research into effects (that I know of) that distinguishes between a 'properly prepared' bottle and one that's not - except common sense and knowledge of disease transmission makes it clear that risks increase/lower according to the hygiene of formula preparation.

I agree that it is unhelpful to dwell on past feeding experiences - moving on is important.

Whitethorn · 07/10/2010 11:49

Ok as there are clearly some very pedantic people on this thread. Common sense rather than research tells you that preparing a bottle correctly is good.

tiktok · 07/10/2010 11:57

I was not being 'pedantic'. You yourself stated that 'research' showed no illness when bottles were prepared correctly. I told you I did not know of any research that said this.

What is pedantic about that? I agree with you about common sense, but you were the one who brought up research.

Original poster
FunnysInTheGarden · 07/10/2010 22:45

tiktok yawn yawn yawn. Let folk have their say for once without being a smart arse about it

OP posts:
Whitethorn · 08/10/2010 09:21

I think it is clear that I meant preparing bottles incorrectly is dangerous but formula is not regarded as such.

Yes tiktok you were right, hope that makes you feel good

LindenAvery · 08/10/2010 09:29

Funnys - reading through this thread it does appear that you have some issues here:
'Most of us are failed BF'

'Without the evil of FF they would not be here'

These are from your posts. Only you can make yourself feel guilty - no one else can do that. Yes there are some horrible mothers/people out there that might have an agenda for making people feel inferior - that's their issue.

Your posts appear to be suggesting that no one is allowed to put forward pride in an achievement - how mother-hating is that? That no one is allowed to celebrate a success because it might make someone else feel bad. Why can't more people focus on the positives rather than the negatives.

I could say 'I've had 2 sections so I failed at giving birth so no-one is allowed to be smug that they have had a straightforward birth because it makes me feel bad' - what rot! It's not their fault they had such a birth and I didn't - I could be eaten up by envy but I'm not. Maybe I am more thick-skinned?

And one more thing - if you decide to formula feed for whatever reason would you rather you know all the facts about formula?

Would you like the adverts to be truthful and not misleading? (It probably is a bad thing that adverts aren't passed for broadcasting like films for example because you have the problem that any claim can be made and it's only when people complain that something can be acted on by the ASA).

Would you like the correct information in how to make up bottles so you can make up your own minds about preparation?

Would you like the evidence that 'special ingredients' added actually do what they say rather than be a marketing exercise?

Funnys - I am not sure what lies ahead for you because believe me as your children get older you are going to be confronted by all sorts of pride (smuggery?)- tis the nature of being a parent. Pick your battles!

tiktok - you can't please all of the people all of the time - however you do a fantastic job of supporting a lot of people on MNs.

mollycuddles · 08/10/2010 09:44

kitkat maybe this isn't the best thread for you to ask for advice so you can make up your mind about feeding your dc. There are a lot of people who are angry with apparently smug bf mums and people who seem to have a bit of an agenda. I can't comment on why this is but I was very angry when bf was a disaster for my firstborn. Mainly with myself but it spilled over into how I viewed others. I looked hard at the evidence when ttc and then pg with my second. Although the benefits to my health and the likelihood it would help me lose weight were appealing, for me the strong family history of severe asthma and eczema made me realise I should give bf a go. But I decided I'd be very proactive about getting help - I normally err on being too independent. Dc2 and 3 have been bf and dd1 briefly had eczema but it resolved. I can't be sure they have definitely benefited from bf but I wanted to stack the odds in their favour especially in view of the family history which stacked the odds against them iyswim. No one can determine the weight any mum puts on the evidence for their situation and I think the ideal situation would be all mums accessing the evidence and making a decision and if wanting to bf being able to get plenty of support, advice and hands on help if and when they need it. Unfortunately that's a long way from what happens in the real world. Congratulations on your baby and good luck.

tiktok · 08/10/2010 10:08

You're very gracious, Whitehorn :)

However. Formula does have risks in itself, irrespective of how carefully it is made up (though poor hygiene and preparation methods add to to the risks, no one would disagree).

I'm right on that one, too. So shoot me :)

None of that means formula is not a necessary product - of course it is.

Kind words, thank you, Linden.

Mollycuddles - I'm with you there. Parents should have information, manufacturers should be obliged to be truthful and to market ethically, and parents can decide for themselves how much weight they give to the different elements of their decision-making. For some parents, a bad experience breastfeeding first time round might mean avoiding a repeat performance is over-ridingly important; for others, information might spur them to get more help next time round.

Whitethorn · 08/10/2010 14:08

Hi Tiktok, am kind of new to MN so not sure why you would be shot? Although I am aware of the benefits of breast feeding, I havent actually read any research that discusses the dangers of formula we would use.

tiktok · 08/10/2010 14:51

OK, Whitehorn, I just meant it as a sorta joke ie some people mightn't like it, but it's true :)

So you haven't read any research that discusses the dangers of formula - that's ok, no one can read everything! Saying you haven't read this any better than saying, as you did, "There is no research that properly prepared formula makes children ill."

That's not me being pedantic again, I hope!

tiktok · 08/10/2010 14:52

Saying you haven't read this any better = saying you haven't read any is better

Whitethorn · 08/10/2010 16:58

tiktok Can you please post a link to this research. I would be very interested to read it

tiktok · 08/10/2010 17:23

A start would be the links in my post yesterday, Whitehorn - at 10.27

Original poster
FunnysInTheGarden · 08/10/2010 22:24

Whitethorn you don't want to get into this. tiktok is just sort of BF per supporter or what ever you are that I wouldn't want to have. No perspective. Pedantic to the last and hideously smug/p.a at that

BTW tiktok it's white thorn

OP posts:
Original poster
FunnysInTheGarden · 08/10/2010 22:26

and tiktok if that is a 'sorta joke" then god help us all. Tis exactly the P/A shit I was talking about

OP posts:
fizzledrizzle · 09/10/2010 06:57

Funny - You have started this thread for a fight and I think you need to stop singling out Tiktok.

strawberrycake · 09/10/2010 08:02

I haven't read all this but as a ff I'd like to note that I have never found tiktok to be smug about bf. I couldn't bf (well, maybe with support I could have) and I wanted to. I respect the way tiktok doesn't walk around with her judgey pants on but actually spends her time providing lots of useful advice.

Smug is those posters who bang on about how shocking some ff situation was, how they bf but never offer bloody help to those of us who struggled with it.

Whitethorn · 09/10/2010 15:04

Tiktok I looked through those links and none of them show any evidence that formula is dangerous to childrens health. One of the studies links formula feeding (with no breastfeeding) with a greater instance of infant death without any links to socio economic factors. Many of the studies are also 7 years old, and one links formula feeding with SIDS, which are far as I know is completely discredited and ridiculous

I have no doubt that breast is best and struggled myself for 11 painful weeks to feed my DD but a bit of perspective would be nice.

StealthPolarBear · 09/10/2010 15:06

Funnys I thought you'd decided to leave this topic now. Until next time eh?
Oh and if I was in need of a bfc I'd consider myself very lucky to have tiktok (as I did, when she replied to my posts on here). If you think otherwise you obviously haven't read many of the threads she replies to.

babymutha · 09/10/2010 15:30

hello - not sure about smugness etc (don't read a lot of bf threads these days) but some formula companies are evil as hell because they promote ff to mothers in developing countries for profit. So their profit = babies dying. They also pay/bribe/miseducate health visitors and midwives to promote ff instead of using their skills to promote breastfeeding. Babies are fed with contaminated water and overdiluted formula and they get ill and die.

Its different in this country because no one is that desperate and ff is safe - but it's some of the same companies making the milk. So not smug - pleased I had the choice to BF or FF. LIVID that other mothers are losing DC because of companies' greed. More info herewww.babymilkaction.org Is asking ff mothers not to support the 'evil' companies and choose formula made by more responsible companies smug? Hope not. Good luck to ALL mothers of babies and children having formula or breastmilk - we need it.

babymutha · 09/10/2010 15:32

lord have just seen this thread has 24 pages - so sorry if this point has been made before

tiktok · 10/10/2010 00:07

Whitethorn, you say "none of them show any evidence that formula is dangerous to childrens health."

I don't want to keep on arguing the point, sorry, but the links I gave include quite large databases of research. Not all studies are brand new, but a 7 year old study need not be discredited at all, at least not on the grounds of age. The link with SIDS is far from 'totally discredited and ridiculous' - not sure where you have got that idea from. I could give you other directions to other collections of research, but to be honest, you could follow a trail to most stuff via what I already offered.

I don't accept the 'lack of perspective' accusation. You asked me for research links, I did not offer them. I have a research background and I am capable of evaluating and assessing research, and have long experience in doing so. Not all infant feeding research is top quality or reliable (same applies to many fields) but it is perfectly possible to draw conclusions from research that is robust and which applies to the developed world.