Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

OK, I get BF, but am totally fucked off with the smugness

604 replies

FunnysInTheGarden · 19/09/2010 22:33

Most of us are failed BF, but the tone on here recently has really pissed me off. We generally FF? Non? So why the smug shit and the passive aggressiveness towards those who have to/chose to FF?

So tempted to name names, but I won't.

Just stop being so smug and holier than thou please, some people

OP posts:
FunnysInTheGarden · 30/09/2010 21:46

annec555 Almost can't be bothered typing this. Please do read the thread. I am fully in support of BF mums having been one myself, twice. Just hate the judgey smugness

OP posts:
annec555 · 30/09/2010 21:56

I have read the thread. People post perfectly reasonable and accurate information and you turn around and say "Why are you saying that [insert thing that they didn't actually say and involves a massive illogical leap]"
The fact that after 19 pages all you can come back with is "judgey smugness" really does say it all. People have put a lot of time into providing interesting and helpful information - it is really depressing to see their efforts slapped down, twisted and ridiculted. Fortunately, I would imagine that anyone coming new to breastfeeding and coming across this thread will be able to sort out the factual, accurate posts from the pointless allegations of "judgey smugness".

FunnysInTheGarden · 30/09/2010 22:00

This thread isn't intended for those who are new to BF. It is intended for those who say 'why wouldn't I be smug about BF'

OP posts:
tiktok · 30/09/2010 22:28

Funny, if you intended to restrict the reading of this thread only to people who were not new to bf, how could you have indicated this? Or worked out a way of stopping them reading it???

I came back to this thread and the first thing I saw was you saying something rubbish about bf "totally prevents you thinking in anything like a linear fashion and you will be almost unable to function as a person" . A hasty back-tracking in a later post has you accepting - thank goodness - that these experiences may be yours alone and you cannot speak for anyone else.

You seem unable to engage in sensible debate with anyone.

arses - I don't think some women who become angry about their experience of bf have a distorted perception because of being over-sensitive or whatever else you accused me of saying. I think the specific conversations you experienced were unpleasant and the women who said those things were unkind and judgemental. I was speaking more generally, and speculating that bitterness and sadness do make some women see hostility and criticism where none exists - there have been several examples of this on mumsnet. Feeding a baby is an emotional issue and seeing things in perspective comes with time, I think.

FunnysInTheGarden · 30/09/2010 22:41

tiktok I don't and cannot restrict the reading of this thread to those already BF. I think it is painfully obvious from the title who it was aimed at.

And please give over with the P/A nonsense. Stop blaming the recipients of smuggery for being oversensitive and bitter about their experiences. It's classic passive aggressive behaviour

OP posts:
Mimile · 30/09/2010 22:53

Oh Funny, why did you start this thread!? You've awakened a monster.
I must say, I share your opinion. But I think that some of us just take this MN stuff a bit too seriously or read too much between the lines. I know I do. I've tried to engage, but I just fail at MN, blatantly. I get upset, I see smugness and patronising lines where there is probably not so much.
Except for practical issues, I don't feel I get much out of any of those big debates (why am I reading? because I am procrastinating rather than working, that's why). Those who provide the best advices aren't the one who shout /write the loudest.

I just wish women received the right advice through the right medium, and were left to make their mind up.

Mimile · 30/09/2010 22:54

Oh Funny, why did you start this thread!? You've awakened a monster.
I must say, I share your opinion. But I think that some of us just take this MN stuff a bit too seriously or read too much between the lines. I know I do. I've tried to engage, but I just fail at MN, blatantly. I get upset, I see smugness and patronising lines where there is probably not so much.
Except for practical issues, I don't feel I get much out of any of those big debates (why am I reading? because I am procrastinating rather than working, that's why). Those who provide the best advices aren't the one who shout /write the loudest.

I just wish women received the right advice through the right medium, and were left to make their mind up.

tiktok · 30/09/2010 22:59

Can't agree with you about the title, Funny, but too late now!

Please read my (and other's) posts more carefully. It is very tiresome to have to correct your understanding all the time. I don't 'blame' recipients of smuggery for being oversensitive. I explained - I thought, clearly - I did not. I don't blame anyone for being bitter about a bf experience that went pear-shaped. I also explained this was understandable and there is no blame involved there, either.

I am saying that when human beings feel let down, angry, bitter, regretful, whatever....they become more likely to see and hear criticism and take it all personally. This is not passive aggressive'; it's obvious stuff. This is how human beings in distress, or with a clear memory of distress, behave. In general.

In your case, just about anyone taking pride in breastfeeding is 'smug' and as a side-order, also being judgemental towards women who don't bf. Anyone who presents research on the health impact of infant feeding is liable to be told they're being pointless and deliberately disregarding any consideration of benefits of ff.

The main benefit of ff is that it provides nutrition for babies who are not breastfed or not fully breastfed - in fact, it is essential in those cases. I don't know of any other benefits which can be generally applied, but perhaps you will enlighten us.

FunnysInTheGarden · 30/09/2010 23:03

Mimile you are right, and I do wonder sometimes. But the reason I started the thread was because it is an issue which really annoys me. I do wonder why I try to engage, like you, but there is something in me which just can't 'let it be' Smile

If only women were just left to make their own minds up.........

And yes, you should be working, so just get on with it Grin

OP posts:
fizzledrizzle · 30/09/2010 23:05

Funny - Why are you so very nasty?

Please do yourself a favour and read a book called The Politics of Breastfeeding. You just might learn something.

FunnysInTheGarden · 30/09/2010 23:10

tiktok once again I feel suitably patronised by your tone. Not one FF/Mixed feeder on here has said they feel bitter. For you to think this is 'understandable' is patronising in the extreme. Those allegations come from other people who read into their defensiveness the fact that it is borne by bitterness at not managing to EBF. It is not, it stems from the smugness I mention in the title to this thread.

Maybe we should agree to disagree?

OP posts:
FunnysInTheGarden · 30/09/2010 23:12

I would rather boil my own head than read a book called 'The Politics of Breastfeeding'. Thanks anyway.

OP posts:
fizzledrizzle · 30/09/2010 23:16

Funny I think you owe the thread some answers.

Do enlighten us as to the further benefits of FF.

fizzledrizzle · 30/09/2010 23:22

It is a shame you won't read the book. As I think you would not have your thread title and your failed bf comment as you would understand the negative impact such a statement might have on women who wanted to breastfeed.

"One of the strengths of Palmer?s argument lies not in a discussion of what women ought to do or which feeding method is ?best?, but in illuminating the way in which women?s confidence in their bodies and ability to breastfeed has been eroded. This can be attributed in no small part to the marketing tactics used by infant food manufacturers. These can be subtle and therefore more insidious. For example, advertisements for formulas to use ?when breastfeeding fails? help to put the idea in women?s mind that failure is a possibility in the first place. One of the many examples in the books is a Cow and Gate leaflet from 2006 showing a half-laughing, half-grimacing woman holding a baby exclaiming ?I?m thinking of getting a t-shirt made - Danger! Sore boobs!? Messages like this help to subtly undercut women?s confidence by portraying breastfeeding as something that is difficult or painful. For too many women in the West this is indeed the case, but not because this is an experience intrinsic to breastfeeding. As Palmer explains, women often experience breastfeeding as difficult and painful for several reasons. Firstly, many are given inadequate, misleading or actively counterproductive information, often by the very health professionals who are supposed to help them."

arses · 30/09/2010 23:22

"arses - I don't think some women who become angry about their experience of bf have a distorted perception because of being over-sensitive or whatever else you accused me of saying. I think the specific conversations you experienced were unpleasant and the women who said those things were unkind and judgemental. I was speaking more generally, and speculating that bitterness and sadness do make some women see hostility and criticism where none exists - there have been several examples of this on mumsnet. Feeding a baby is an emotional issue and seeing things in perspective comes with time, I think."

Sorry?

I didn't accuse you of anything, nor did I address any post to you.

Your point here is valid, but you could have left out the 'accused' bit.. it makes your post seem aggressive.

I am hiding this thread. Funny, back out of this, it is not doing anyone any favours, least of all you.

I am completely in favour of breastfeeding information and sharing, pride and advocacy. I do think that sometimes it would be best discussed on threads that were not inevitably going to turn into a breast vs bottle debate. I still think that the crusade to let people know that they could have bf'd if they had x or y or z advice at x or y or z point when they didn't and hadn't is counterproductive. Particularly when it descends into discussion of 'need' with reference to formula as the decision to move from breast to bottle is often underscored by many different levels of need, the breasts are only one part.

Again, I say this as someone who did everything 'by the book' after the first 2 nights in hospital - e.g. feeding two hourly and expressing and refeeding to establish supply, but still had poor milk transfer which was eventually put down to a structural difficulty (high arched palate/back tongue tie), probably not aided by a) the fact my mother had issues feeding me/supply problems and b) poor initial support in the hospital. I only know this because I worked like bejaysus to find that information out, so it disturbs me when people talk about statistics related to the physiology because unless I had pushed and pushed for further intervention, I would not know this about why I couldn't exclusively feed. I doubt I am the only one.

I mentioned that I introduced formula at 20 weeks and it helped my bfing relationship continue in the context of having done everything possible to EBF to that point. . I am not in the business of 'accusing' anyone of anything, I just feel that sometimes the bald facts of how bfing words doesn't match the experience, and that there's a time and a place to discuss whether or not people 'need' to formula feed e.g. on different threads. I also think it's reductive of human experience: I know many women who struggled to maintain feeding/expressing their ex-prem babies, for example, and I think the 'need' for formula in this case is more emotional (when a woman is at breaking point) than physiological.

I think you can share information while maintaining an empathetic tone and without saying 'to hell with sensitivity' and being all gung-ho about it. Part of persuading people to bf should be that they will find support no matter what, not just if it all works swimmingly and a dash of formula never passes their baby's lips.

But I fear that would never, ever be understood on this or any other thread like this one on MN.

tittybangbang · 30/09/2010 23:24

"I would rather boil my own head than read a book called 'The Politics of Breastfeeding'. Thanks anyway"

There are a lot of people out there who enjoy debating this subject from a position of profound ignorance of the facts. It'd be more interesting if you were better informed, then we wouldn't have to keep replaying the same old crappy, futile, distorted arguments.

Sad
FunnysInTheGarden · 30/09/2010 23:25

FD I did not start this thread to espouse the benefits or otherwise of FF. I started it to ask, quite directly, those who are smug/P/A to back off.

OP posts:
arses · 30/09/2010 23:28

Quick question, though: just how many of you are now itching to say: 'what do you mean you couldn't breastfeed, many women who have children with high arched palates and tongue ties continue to EBF'? If there's even one, then that is what I object to.. in my case, in my experience, I couldn't continue to watch my child lose weight and I am so, so glad I took the decision I did to supplement but also bf.. because that decision changed everything for us, and our feeding relationship, and my son's temperament (which has all sorts of ramifications in terms of how he is developing). It eased the pressure on our relationship and it changed a very irritable, jittery baby into a much calmer one.

The best thing any breastfeeding person ever said to me was that I was feeding him 95% bm and the 5% was not going to make a massive difference to his health or development either way.

FunnysInTheGarden · 30/09/2010 23:29

TBB why do you continue to engage with me then?

arses I really don't care about my perception here, but maybe I should back off. It seems that until I do this thread will keep going and going.........

Quite good fun though isn't it?

OP posts:
fizzledrizzle · 30/09/2010 23:29

But Funny - comments such as "Don't be fooled FF mums, tis a conspiracy I tell thee......" would indicate otherwise.

tittybangbang · 30/09/2010 23:30

"Part of persuading people to bf should be that they will find support no matter what, not just if it all works swimmingly and a dash of formula never passes their baby's lips".

Stop distorting the issue. Pretty much all mothers with experience of breastfeeding know that it can be incredibly hard and that most women mixed feed. Breastfeeding advocates don't refuse to support women who're mixed feeding or struggling with breastfeeding. You have no case.

FunnysInTheGarden · 30/09/2010 23:31

arses you are starting to explain and justify your reasons for using formula......big mistake. Just gives more ammunition.

OP posts:
FunnysInTheGarden · 30/09/2010 23:33

FD how does that espouse the benefits of FF? It was a tongue in cheek comment, obv lost on you

OP posts:
tittybangbang · 30/09/2010 23:33

"Quick question, though: just how many of you are now itching to say: 'what do you mean you couldn't breastfeed, many women who have children with high arched palates and tongue ties continue to EBF'?"

Oh piss off. Nobody has said or implied that supplementation is never necessary or beneficial! You're arguing as though they have. THEY HAVEN'T. So stand down!

arses · 30/09/2010 23:34

What? No case? That is such an aggressive answer! Of everything I said, that is all you can respond to?

I don't think it's AT ALL true that all bfing advocates are non-judgementally supportive of women who mixed feed. I think the very fact of saying that nobody 'needs' to reduces the complex issues around infant feeding.

That was my 'point'. I am not "distorting" the issue, merely construing it in a way that differs to your viewpoint.