OK, I get BF, but am totally fucked off with the smugness

[FunnysInTheGarden]

Most of us are failed BF, but the tone on here recently has really pissed me off. We generally FF? Non? So why the smug shit and the passive aggressiveness towards those who have to/chose to FF?

So tempted to name names, but I won't.

Just stop being so smug and holier than thou please, some people

You mean physically tittybangbang there though? Mentally would be a different matter?

Titty - AARGH. I'm not an idiot. I do my own research. I am talking about ALL advice. Here on Mumsnet, on Kellymom, in books. ALL of it.

Yes - physically.

There is obviously a reason why the majority of women in the UK are unable to breastfeed for more than a few weeks that goes way beyond the physical.

Personally I think there really needs to be some SERIOUS research into what's happened in our culture that's made what's intrinsically a normal physiological function (and something the majority of mothers world-wide do without difficulty) so dysfunctional for Western mothers.

Organiccc - that's kind of my point actually. There is very little information out there about how to handle mixed feeding, presumably because no one wants to be seen to endorse it. Someone like me who's pretty much forced to go that route - not because of supply issues but for their own sanity - is left on their own to work it out. I totally agree that HCPs are not well trained enough. But almost every piece of information out there talks about breastfeeding OR formula feeding.

I want to see advice along the lines of (and I'm typing this off the top of my head):

You may find you want to give the occasional bottle to help you through the exhaustion of the early weeks of breastfeeding. Don't worry about this - your baby is still receiving substantial benefits and if you want to establish exclusive breastfeeding in the long term it's perfectly possible to do so. If you do give the occasional bottle try not to then increase the number of bottles to match your baby's appetite. If you want to continue breastfeeding long term it's important to match your baby's appetite by increasing your breastmilk supply, and this means feeding more whenever you can. But don't worry if it takes you a few days to catch up with your baby's needs.

Nobody pick this apart please. It is simply a hastily written example of the kind of advice that would be really really useful.

Ah I have to admit I was presurred into giving the odd bottle of formula by everyone the only thing that stopped them nagging and berating a teenage mum was showing them the evidence that giving a bottle of formula can be a bad idea.

So while I agree that there needs to more advice on mixed feeding many women cannot keep their suply going if they mix feed and it should be noted that while some mothers choose to mix feed (nothing wrong with that) It can adversly effect supply.

Sorry - going to pick it apart!

HP's have to give evidence based advice that sets out the risks and benefits of any sort of action.

They HAVE to point out that supplementing - even the occasional bottle - during the early weeks when breastfeeding is still being established - is linked in the research to earlier cessation of breastfeeding. They CAN'T not tell women this.

They also need to point out that the best health outcomes are linked to exclusive breastfeeding, particularly the case with gastro-intestinal illness which is much more common in mixed fed babies than in exclusively breastfed babies.

They can talk about women's experiences of feeding by way of illustrating how many mothers successfully mixed feed, and they could also give detailed advice about how to best protect your supply if you're mixed feeding. But they can't imply that mixed feeding is never problematic - because it sometimes/often is!

Titty - you are deliberately blowing what people are saying out of proportion. Obviously there is some hyperbole in the use of the word 'despise'. Perhaps it would sit more comfortably with you if I said I despised the behaviour?

Of course some people say thoughtless things: I have asked people if they are 'feeding [their baby] [themselves]' and I have learned from being online that some people find this offensive. Tha is what you are talking about.

However, in the situation I described, it is exclusionary and bitchy. And women can be exclusionary and bitchy, I don't think tha's a shock to anyone now? It's a vulnerable time in people's lives and perhaps it brings out the worst in them?

I do think it's patronising to point out to people who HAVE formula fed that their belief that they couldn't do it was wrong. I think it's actually quite nasty, in some respects. Some people feel quite sensitive about this and the boat has sailed, you know? So what's the purpose in responding to what they say with 'oh well, you Know, you think it was because you couldn't do it but actually all that time you've been feeling horrible and guilty could have been avoided if you had access to the same resarch that I did.' It's a bit 'ooh, lucky me, poor you', I think. I think it masquerades on here, quite a bit, as 'information sharing' when really it is a bit pointless, telling the person to shut the door after the horse has bolted. It would be more helpful and supportive to point out that if the person felt like bfing again, there is research to show that a lot of the issues that first time mothers have disappear on the second and to give links to where they could have access to better advice if they tried again. But banging on about how people don't need formula is just ridiculous. How do you quantify need? I gave formula having been advised by a world breastfeeding expert to my skinny, skinny baby.. and yes, if I had a more supportive midwife my first two nights in hospital it might not have happened, but that's an issue for another thread, I feel. I don't really understand why EVERYTHING has to be discussed in one fell swoop.

My glaring truth is that at least some of this is crowing, pure and simple. There are much more productive ways of discussing and promoting breastfeeding than tearing a formula feeder's experience to shreds and telling them that if they feel like a failure, they bloody well should, because you know, they are mistaken tht it was beyond their control. What purpose does that serve to you, to them, to anyone? Shouldn't that be a different thread? It just seems insensitive to me.. and you know what, I a bloody proud of my bfing experience, I worked my arse off it and no, I didn't get rid of formula 100% but he was exclusively fed for as long as my supply could sustain him.. the whys and wherefores of that are irrelevant, at the point formula was introduced, he needed supplemental food. He is still bfing now, and it is till good for him, and that's great for me and for him.. but I don't talk to people who chose the formula route earlier and say, 'oh, well, you know, breastfeeding was so important to me because of all its benefits that I didn't just give up, I sought world-class advice and travelled hundreds of miles to meet an expert so I could continue'. Because you can hear the ((preens)) implicit in that, and it would be just downright rude and lacking in empathy to go on about it.

That's the point you are missing. You can discuss every point you make in a different context and it would make sense to me.. in the context of 'disproving' another person's feelings, it seems ridiculous, self-satisfied and smug.

Particularly when you delve into the psychobabble. It would be as if I levelled an accusation at you that you must feel the need to go on about feeding because you are rubbish in other areas of parenting. It would be cruel and I guess inaccurate, and above all, rude beyond belief.

That's what I don't understand on threads like these. I don't think it serves a Health Promotion function, I think it just makes people feel bad about themselves and the people who know that they have EBF for years feel great...this leads to this polarisation you say is so unhelpful. Just stay out of threads where you feel the need to psychoanalyse and all should be well and good, I'd say. Share the evidence and the rationale where it is likely to make a positive rather than a negative difference.

Incidentally, I don't believe the majority of women think they're physically incapable of breastfeeding exclusively per se. But when they're told that the only way to do this is to be a milk slave to their baby's needs all day and all night, no matter how exhausted they are, how ill they feel and regardless of the needs of their partner and other children; to get through the pain by using cream; to address a bad latch by painfully relatching again and again; etc (I'm obviously paraphrasing). When the message gets through in that way, is it any wonder so many decide that they can't commit to it? That perhaps the undoubted benefits are outweighed by the needs of their own health, physical and mental, and their family?

I know this continues to be a bit off topic, but it's pertinent really because those that boast to have managed all this can come across as really really smug. And to look down on us mere mortals who simply couldn't, at least not for the first few weeks.

Now Titty, you know I wasn't proposing a single paragraph to cover all bases. You know I was simply talking about the tone of the advice ie recognising how hard, sometimes impossible, it is to breastfeed exclusively in the early weeks. More realism and pragmatism and less preaching. That's all I'm getting at. Yes, tell women the potential disadvantages but fgs don't leave it there as happens at the moment. Give possible ways to prevent those problems so women feel supported and not abandoned.

I guess this is probably a topic for a different thread at some point, although I doubt it would make a difference to anyone's pov if they found breastfeeding unproblematic (note, I didn't say easy!) from the word go.

pomme yes, that is a good idea. I'll pass it back through MSLC.

gaelic I have done all that and continue to EBF - nor formula has passed his lips. I don't think it makes me a better person or a better mother. More determined, yes, which is obvious on the basis that I managed it, but I'm not smug about it.

Noone told me I had to be a "slave to my baby". I just decided that the risks of formula were too high, so as it wasn't an option, so I just had to keep going.

But for mothers who decided that the risks weren't too high, and mixed fed or FF - well so what? They could just as well look down on me as being a martyr and an idiot - or some other made-up put-down. I don't care. Why should anyone else?

arses To despise someone is totally different to despising something they said. What they said was dispicable. They may or may not be dispicable people - that's a different matter.

You see, I don't think anyone has the right to say they were more determined than anyone else - it ranks alongside comparing pain thresholds when discussing birth experiences. I guess it's just extremely hard to put things like this in writing without making others feel bad.

"I do think it's patronising to point out to people who HAVE formula fed that their belief that they couldn't do it was wrong. "

"I think it's actually quite nasty, in some respects".

It's nastier to new mothers to allow the lie that large numbers of women are physically unable to feed their babies on their own milk to stand unchallenged. It's wrong, even if believing it is more psychologically comfortable to those mothers for whom the boat has sailed, as you say.

"And to look down on us mere mortals who simply couldn't, at least not for the first few weeks"

Sorry - this is about YOUR attitude and YOUR problems with you own feelings of inadequacy. I mixed-fed my first for a few weeks when I would rather have exclusively breastfed, because of poor advice and support. I don't feel in any way looked down on, inferior or inadequate and I don't feel that those women who managed to exclusively breastfeed because they had better advice and support, or just better luck, are in any way presenting themselves as morally superior, no matter how proud they sound. I did the best I could with the resources I had - which were crap. As I'm sure you did. I celebrate for women who have had positive experiences of breastfeeding - bloody good for them. Let them be proud and smug. Being a mum is hard enough as it is. Stop trying to rob people of their pride because you're bitter and jealous.

'I know this continues to be a bit off topic, but it's pertinent really because those that boast to have managed all this can come across as really really smug. And to look down on us mere mortals who simply couldn't, at least not for the first few weeks.' Sums it up perfectly to me they come across to you as being smug even though you sya yourself all they have done is be proud of their acheviement and you take that tto mean they look down on you but they never actually say that.

Can a woman who has bf for any length of time be proud of herself? You know like when you spend hours slaving over a stove making a really healthymeal from scratch and get a sence of pride or is it not alowed to feel proud for bf?

"I guess it's just extremely hard to put things like this in writing without making others feel bad"

It comes down to generosity of spirit - towards other people and towards yourself. It's not so hard.

I refer yu to my previous post. I'm not bitter or jealous, I just know how the advice I read made me feel crap. P'raps I care too much.

That was to BigOfNorks and Titty btw. Incidentally I'm very proud of myself too - we've even ditched the nipple shields as of yesterday. I know I couldn't have done it - no way - without a supportive DH at home most of the time.

I'm just trying, and totally failing, to make a wider point. I shan't labour it any further.

"You know I was simply talking about the tone of the advice ie recognising how hard, sometimes impossible, it is to breastfeed exclusively in the early weeks. More realism and pragmatism and less preaching. That's all I'm getting at"

Maybe what the literature should should say is something like this: Exclusive breastfeeding is physically possible for the majority of women. However, highly medicalised birth practices in UK hospitals, inept or non-existent support and guidance by poorly trained health professionals, lack of cultural experience and understanding of the normal physiology of lactation among the general public, a lack of confidence in breastfeeding and the ubiquity of early supplementation with formula will make exclusive breastfeeding, or any breastfeeding at all, extremely difficult for the majority of mothers.

If you wish to exclusively breastfeed you may wish to employ an independent midwife with extensive experience of supporting lactation to provide you with postnatal care in the month following your baby's birth. Failing that we can suggest moving to Norway. Or Kenya. Or anywhere really, where breastfeeding is the culturally normal way to feed babies.

titty I think you've just struck it perfectly.

gaelic "You see, I don't think anyone has the right to say they were more determined than anyone else - it ranks alongside comparing pain thresholds when discussing birth experiences. I guess it's just extremely hard to put things like this in writing without making others feel bad."
Anyone can write anything that someone else reads and then feel bad about it. It's the reader, not the writer, who chooses the emotion.

It's self-evident that I was more determined not to FF than someone in an equivalent position to me who did FF because I didn't FF. Whether two people's positions are equivalent is a different matter which I think is your point. But all of that is irrelevant to any discussion (and is me pointlessly nitpicking) because the point you made, "I guess it's just extremely hard to put things like this in writing without making others feel bad." IS the point. If someone takes what I said as me being smug, or despicable, or any of the other words being used here, they're not understanding the meaning of what I FEEL. :)

And perhaps this is the ultimate problem with this thread - which titty has already said. This medium is limiting. People can't say what they really mean and readers will often misinterpret it anyway.

Some people will always be irritatingly smug about whatever they do (cooking/BF/riding a bike) but that doesn't mean "all people" who do "something" (cooking/BF/riding a bike) is therefore smug.

Anyway, the interesting discussion here is the lack of provision of good support in many PCTs. We all complain about it, and we all want it to be improved. So how about joining your local Maternity Services Liason Committee (MSLC) and put your point of view directly to the PCT? Or contact PALS?

BTW gaelic you are very proud of yourself, as you should be, and you've had a supportive DH which is wonderful :). I'm very proud of myself, and I should be. I've also had a supportive DH and best of all a wonderful, fantastic PCT who funds a brilliant peer to peer BFing support service AND very highly qualified breastfeeding nurses AND lots of local breastfeeding support groups AND the local HVs are all BF trained and able to offer loads of help AND I used the NCT breastfeeding counsellors a lot. Plus I know immense amounts about breastfeeding thanks to extensive reading and studying over the past 6 years - and having a mum who is a midwife.

I'm proud of my part of it but don't in any way underestimate what the help I've been given has done for me.

So I may be proud of myself, but I'm not smug as I know that although much of it was my commitment, I couldn't have done it without all that help.

I am really depressed by this thread. It is just the same old stuff being regurgitated. "Everyone knows that BFing is best so all BFers must stop saying so right now. But BFing isn't really best and I reserve the right to continue to say so while at the same time shouting down BFers who try to respond" and so on and so on and so on.
Everyone clearly doesn't know/accept that BF is best - this thread is evidence of that. If everyone accepted this then there would be no "but" after "Everyone knows that BFing is best."
One of the problems seems to be that people can't differentiate between a negative personal attack aimed specifically at them, and a positive message aimed at all those who have yet to make a decision about feeding, and those who are struggling to establish BFing. This might be a specifically internet issue - things are discussed by many people but you are an individual sitting in front of a screen reading the words and it is easy to feel that it is targetted at you.
People really need to see the bigger picture. It is far, far more important to encourage, even chivy and push, a large number of women to breastfeed, than it is to cushion the feelings of individuals who are unhappy with their choices or experiences with BFing. Like someone said, that ship has sailed. There are ways in which those women can be supported, but that does not include hiding important truths from the wider public.
I don't really get the idea that someone would think "bollocks to you, I am not going to BF" just because it is pushed hard antenatally. If that is something that someone would do then, quite bluntly, shame on them for putting umbrage-taking and point-scoring before the best interests of your child. I don't think there are many people with this deplorable attitude, and those who do think like this would be unlikely to put themselves through the difficult early days of BFing anyway.
To those who are being labelled smug and insensitive for putting the facts out there, please ignore the naysayers and keep on doing what you are doing. I did not have the successful BFing relationship that I wanted due to a chronic low supply that did not respond to the tried and tested methods. Howver I believe passionately in BFing and do not think that I should be shielded from the facts at the expense of someone else out there who might benefit from the pro-BFing message and go on to do what I could not and exclusively BF for a good, long time. There are many people like me who want the pro-BFing drive to continue.

Funny, if you didn't want me to patronise you, you shouldn't have posted a complaint about something I said in which it was clear you hadn't understood what I'd originally posted -- viz smoking and Yes Minister.

As for under-informed.... you just unblushingly promoted the use of formula feeding in developing countries. That's not just under-informed that's counter to the known facts. The number of deaths from use of formula in the developing world is tragically high much higher than the number of deaths from the unavailability of formula.

You also said that I hadn't considered your hypothetical "what if formula weren't available". Why would I? I didn't argue for the banning of formula --obviously, as that would be a stupid thing to do.

Incidentally, you said I speak from a position of "supposed moral authority". I can't stop you hearing moral authority in what I write, but the only authority I claim is that I am accurately reflecting the evidence about the health benefits of BM.

Finally, I notice that you are responding to my posts but not replying to the direct questions I put to you. Do you not have answers?

Just to throw into the mix: don't believe everything you read in the papers... but I find the NHS's website quite helpful. I once contacted the firm who does the work on behalf of the NHS in interpreting the studies and they were v thorough in explaining how they did it. It was good stuff.

www.nhs.uk/news/2010/09September/Pages/bottle-feeding-obesity-link.aspx

NB -- the website says the Guardian is over-interpreting. The Guardian quotes the lead author on the study who seems to also be over-interpreting!

slhilly what were your points exactly? Perhaps if you summarise I can respond directly. They were rather lost in the general hub bub.

Your analogy with the 'Yes Minister' sketch was unfortunate to say the least.

Am re your ref to promoting FF in developing countries. You seem to assume that noone in developing countries has AIDS and that none of them have access to safe water/ refrigeration with which to prep formula.

sheeh, Funnys, how about instead of me typing it all out again, you go back and read what I wrote? they're not far upthread. they were not lost in the hubbub, at least one question was in the very same post of mine that you responded to.

my analogy was not unfortunate. it was wry comment on the impossibility of doing what pdt had suggested, ie creating a cost-benefit calculus that include corporate tax receipts. what was unfortunate was your misinterpretation.

not sure why you're confused re promoting FF in developing countries. the fact that some babies can be fed safely with formula and indeed are better off that way does not preclude other babies dying in their thousands from the use of formula where it is not warranted in developing countries, as does in fact happen. you keep on thinking in absolutist terms: "slhilly has said that lots of babies die from use of formula in developing countries; slhilly thus thinks no babies can benefit from formula in developing countries". by doing so, you continually set up straw men.

Funnysinthegarden - I don't know why you are bothering to engage with this thread anymore. You clearly aren't reading the responses. How on earth is Slhilly assuming that there are no AIDS cases or sanitation in developing countries? All she said was that formula has caused a lot of deaths in developing countries which I thought was a pretty well-accepted fact. Formula companies have interfered with the breastfeeding relationship of countless women and children for whom the dangers of formula are obvious.
It is becoming clearer and clearer that you only started this thread to have a nasty little bitch about BFing mums. Otherwise you would actually pay attention to what people are saying, give their points some thought and respond in a thoughtful manner.
Slhilly - I would give it up. I can't possibly imagine that she believes all the stuff she is posting so I can only assume she is just trying to provoke more arguments.