OK, I get BF, but am totally fucked off with the smugness

[FunnysInTheGarden]

Most of us are failed BF, but the tone on here recently has really pissed me off. We generally FF? Non? So why the smug shit and the passive aggressiveness towards those who have to/chose to FF?

So tempted to name names, but I won't.

Just stop being so smug and holier than thou please, some people

I am 10+2 with my 1st DC and have been in bed since 7.30 with very bad nausea and reading through this thread. It has made me feel sad (maybe just the hormones) that women feel the need to berate each other over this subject. I have already started to worry about what I will do when the time comes and I also feel sad that when the time comes to make the choice (if I have one) guilt will be an inevitable consequence - no matter how I end up feeding my baby. Perhaps this is just all part of being a mother and as another poster says, being a mother is an intensively personal experience.

My experience so far has been that BF is very definitely "pushed" (many many leaflets and the MW at my booking in appointment saying "you ARE intending to BF of course." I do not mind this particularly because at the end of the day what will be will be.

Breastmilk is obviously what nature intended but I also know of many babies (including myself, my sister, nieces and nephews etc) who have been FF and are absolutely fine.

Logically and intellectually it seems unarguable to me that, as a bare fact, breastmilk and formula are not the same. That doesn't mean however one is "good" and the other "evil". They are just different. They both do the most important thing, however, which is feed babies.

I will try and BF but if I can't for whatever reason then I will FF. I hope that come the time for the decision the only thing that will matter to me is that my baby is fed, content and thriving. Taking up a polemic stance either way is just unhelpful I think. There are such a plethora of reasons why people do and don't BF or FF - we should just try to respect other women's choices/situations and offer helpful and objective advice if we can. I hope that if I ever need advice or support on either choice that MN will provide it as it has done with my pg so far.

Anyway - not much of a contribution I know but just thought I'd share my thoughts as a new mum to be.

I have stayed clear of this thread but just wanted to say I am proud of myself for bf I live in a area with little bf support, and the lowest rates in the u.k. I was just 18 having ds and I bf him for 2.9 years.

I had thrush,mastitus cracked nipples and blocked ducts. But against the odds I did it I have featured in local newspaper articles as being the only teen mother in 30 years in my area to have breastfed. I did it alone I had no internet there was no councillor just me and perserverance. I am proud of myself but I have never once judged a woman for ff because I do not know a persons mind, body and experiences and I am a great believer in the only person who can judge you is yourself.

I am not perfect there are many things I do that I feel shit about and that is why I never judge another mother because I don't have the whole picture only a small part of your mothering styles and so I cannot judge whether you are lazy or selfish because I am not qualified to do so only youcan do that. But I can be proud of one of the few things Idid right for my dc just as I am sure there are other acheviements you feel proud about.

sloathy, congrats on being pg and I hope the nausea passes.

I don't think many people will argue that BM is "good" and FM "evil". But they will say "BM confers more health benefits for your baby than FM". That's not passing judgement or being polemical, it's reflecting facts.

On the wider issue, I think people are indeed assertive (my word for what you've called "polemical") in saying BM is by-and-large better -- because (a) it is, averaged out over many babies, and (b) not as many mothers do it as can do it.

arses once again excellent post.

I take exception to tiktok and slhilly who seem to know above else how to be patronising and under informed all in the same sentence. How about the proposition that some BF babies in developing and developed countries would not survive were it not for the advent of formula? BF can cause 'excess morbidity' too you know. You speak from the position of supposed moral authority, but seem not to have considered what would happen were formula simply not available.

And for the record once again I do not have any issues re being a failed BF. I do have issues with the way women like me are treated when we think about stopping. Incidentally, when I was pregnant with DS2 I received a leaflet from the hospital espousing the benefits of BF compared to FF. Annoyingly enough there were precisely NO benefits to FF.......... It is that kind of attitude which would make me want to FF from birth

sloathy congratulations on you pregnancy. Sorry but you about to join the world of motherhood. A world in which where you pre baby choices and attitudes, which are totally reasonable and logical, will be thrown to the dogs . You will be patronised, treated as an imbecile and generally done down simply because you have decided to procreate, and not just in the arena of BF v FF!

I do wish that the 'pushing' leaflets were more specific or that preggers mums could be given copies of actual studies, abstracts and conclusions. Reducing the evidence and debates surrounding bf to the top line statements on the NHS leaflets just makes you feel stubborn and scoffy if you are curious and hate authority.

yes pommedeterre it does

and I am curious and hate authority, esp when it cannot back up it's claims properly. Have never liked this kind of fuzzy thinking......

Which claims do you mean, funny?

I don't think anyone who's posted is underinformed re: bfing. However, a little less psychobabble and a little more realism regarding the less than pure motivations of some mothers who bf when speaking to or about those who have used formula wouldn't go astray.

By all means, celebrate and advocate bfing, it's bloody brilliant and hard work for many. Just let women have a good old moan when they come across the bad 'uns too. Frankly, I have been horrified to come across many of the attitudes I've encountered about many, many aspects of parenting: I don't know why on God's earth it's anyone else's business how I parent if I am doing my best and am generally well-intentioned and competent. It's a long ol' game, parenting, and infant feeding is but one small facet. I strongly suspect that the smug bitches who were berating our friend for 'not trying hard enough' to feed will judge just about every other aspect of parenting as the years go on. They'll be tittering about the wedding venue and Christening meal of these babies when they're grown. Meh.

MN is all about the judgey pants, and there's more than enough of it on this subforum too. Quoting reams of evidence and solemnly pointing out that the reason x happened to you is because your HCP hadn't read y article, and now, statistically speaking, your baby is forever more to be disadvantaged in life is just so unnecessary. As are the tiresome responses that actually, Baby is robustly healthy as were Baby's ff'd parents and grandparents before them. I'm not saying infant feeding is not an important topic, or worth discussing seriously, but there's a lot to be said for sticking to the threads where you are likely to find like-minded folk who want to engage with you on the issues, rather than seeking out those with views that, yes may be "skewed" by personal experience but are, well, valid to those individuals.

these generalisations about the benefits of BF, which are accepted as gospel, without ANY attempt to suggest that FF may have benefits too. The most annoying of these are that BF will help us loose weight, and that FF is sooo difficult compared to BF - all that sterilising. Both utter shit IMHO . No mention of the fact that BF totally prevents you thinking in anything like a linear fashion and you will be almost unable to function as a person if you BF.

I accept that BF confers benefits in the round, but the propaganda does not take into account the many different types of women who FF, and that not all of them conform to the lowest common denominator. ie not all of us are thick and feed our FF babies days old milk which has been left to fester on the work surfaces of our kitchen.

Incidentally, I would like to see a study showing what happens to BF babies when BF does not workout.

Ah, I hate my imac, why does it always skip backwards on me??? Grr.

So organic. One example.

NHS leaflet:

Bf may help protect your baby against obesity.

From a study posted on a thread here:

Not being fat as an infant reduces your risk of being obese later in life by 15-25%. Bm is one way to achieve this (one way as bm vs fm advantage was normalised in the study by using a lower protein formula).

Second one makes you think, hmm, okay, interesting I will think on about bm. First one makes you think, oh for god's sake how many ishoos can they get on one leaflet.

I do seem to be particularly at odds with bf encouragement techniques though, I went to a bf clinic when I was struggling 3 and half weeks in and bought formula on the way home. So may just be me. Shrugs and all that.

"No mention of the fact that BF totally prevents you thinking in anything like a linear fashion and you will be almost unable to function as a person if you BF."

huh??

I function quite well, thank you.

again. That specific claim about obesity can be "backed up" by evidence. How strong the evidence is is up to the individual to decide but the whole of the evidence can't be printed in one leaflet.

NHS leaflets generally have to be produced to a level where the average 14 year old can understand it which limits the complexity of them.

So how should they improve the leaflets?

"No mention of the fact that BF totally prevents you thinking in anything like a linear fashion and you will be almost unable to function as a person if you BF."

"... cannot back up it's claims properly. Have never liked this kind of fuzzy thinking......"

So, wanna talk to us about the scientific evidence that Bf'ers are fluffy-brained lentil-weavers?
Or have we just randomly stepped back into Victorian times, with wandering wombs, and maths overheating our lady brains?

Where did I say it couldn't organic?? Confused. I was citing an infant feeding study??
Was just saying that there is a wedge of the population (or maybe just one little old me) that hates being given information targeted for the lowest common denominator. It does not motivate me.
Studies could be made available for those who seem not lowest common denominator. That would have helped me.To have the statements qualified with real studies for all the questions and conundrums they throw up would have made me feel MORE convinced about bf not less.

"I do seem to be particularly at odds with bf encouragement techniques though, I went to a bf clinic when I was struggling 3 and half weeks in and bought formula on the way home." What about the encouragement techniques didn't work for you?

OK pomme, I see what you mean (I'm reading x-posts and mixing up who said what).

However, it's not possible, as I've said, to print a whole study on a leaflet, therefore it's only possible to summarise it. Is there another way do you think?

THOS in my experience BF stopped me thinking in a linear fashion. Nothing to do with Victorian thinking etc. It just made me go a bit nuts. Can't speak for anyone else. I'm sure there is no evidence, after all BF confers ONLY benefits on those giving and receiving.

PDT not just you. The leaflets and actually a lot about BF 'encouragement' is patronising and yes aimed at the lowest common denominator. Why should we all be treated like 14 year old girls?

"How about the proposition that some BF babies in developing and developed countries would not survive were it not for the advent of formula?"

In countries where breastfeeding is the cultural norm, death from outright breastfeeding failure is extremely rare. On the other hand millions of babies have died (and continue to die in their 1000's) in developing countries from drinking unsafe formula, so on balance if you look across the world formula has killed many more babies than its saved.

BTW - the most judgemental comments about other mothers on this thread have come from you funnys. You're seething.

So what if someone thinks you or anyone else has been a bit of a slacker? Who gives a fuck? How can you get so worked up about a few stoopid thoughtless comments?

Funny, I do get where you are coming from about the smugness

Of course breastmilk has to be better for a baby than cows milk - it's designed for humans. Cows milk is designed for calves!

Having been on both sides of the fence, I can see that my own issues with 'smugness' were often created by my own disappointment (heartbreak) with not managing to breastfeed as long as I wanted to. And also that the reason people often jump in is because they are bloody proud of themselves for managing to do it - as well as mad at formula companies for charging extortionate prices due to the huge amount they are spending advertising it is as good as breastmilk (when it isn't).

Personally I am pro BF, always was (despite ffing 3 children) and anti formula companies activities - I have boycotted Nestle for 20 years due to the horrifically unethical things they do in the third world!

I am so glad formula is available, or my first 3 kids would have starved or been fed crushed biscuits in water or condensed milk etc (even more inferior!) And I probably would not have felt such pain about not managing to breastfeed DC1,2,3 had I not perceived such smugness.

But equally, I would not have managed to DC4 had I not learnt so much through MN about breastfeeding - for that I am very grateful.

FWIW, way back when, I eventually avoided even opening the breastfeeding messages as it was like picking a scab

Are you still a bit nuts though? You seem bizarrely angry, confrontational, and actually confused.

Organic - Put some up on a website and put the url on the leaflet maybe?

Funny - you demand hard evidence showing the benefits of breast feeding but then spout ridiculous claims such as breastfeeding mothers will be unable to function which is just not true. You have no problem presenting your opinion as fact but seem to have a massive problem if others do the same.

I really don't understand why there is such a need to attack (from either side).

I really don't understand why this thread has become 'everything I learned about bfing and can write on the back of a stamp'.

Funny, you are not helping by being so aggressively defensive but I understand why you might be: there has been a lot of sanctimonious bullshit on this thread.

For every single one of you crowing about the evidence, can any one of you provide solid, hard researched evidence that all mums are nice and never say anything smug in a holier-than-thou way, vs 'sharing their pride'?

That's what this thread was initially about but it has been transformed by the majority of posters into the same ol', same ol' handwringing and pontificating about The State of Breastfeeding Today. Sadly, this creates the old polarisation where people are telling eachother to grow up and making wild unstantiated statements e.g about bfing turning you loopy or perceiving bfing as lentil-weavers anonymous etc. Yawn, yawn, yawn.

If Funny feels patronised, I can understand it. I can see how that creates this rat-in-a-corner mentality, too.. but Funny, you are doing yourself no favours by engaging. They will trump you on the evidence about breast being best every time, because that's well proven. The patronising 'ooh, poor dears who are just so negative and warped because they haven't managed to breastfeed, let's just explain how they don't really need to formula feed and if they had better advice they would have been able to breastfeed exclusively like us and that would be sooooooooooo much better for their babies'.

Surely anyone can see that's a bit patronising? No?

That should read:

" The patronising 'ooh, poor dears who are just so negative and warped because they haven't managed to breastfeed, let's just explain how they don't really need to formula feed and if they had better advice they would have been able to breastfeed exclusively like us and that would be sooooooooooo much better for their babies' would be a better target for your ire."

"hard researched evidence that all mums are nice and never say anything smug in a holier-than-thou way, vs 'sharing their pride'?"

I refuse to write someone off as an intrinsically bad person because they've said something hurtful to another mum about baby feeding or anything else. I'm sure we've all behaved badly at some point and said stupid things.

Someone can say something tactless and hurtful about breastfeeding and not be a horrible person.

And like it or not there ARE a lot of women out there who've had disappointing experiences of breastfeeding and who have complicated and unresolved feedings about it. Sometimes it does impact on the way they engage in discussion of the topic - it's bound to, as evidenced almost every day on this board.

It's not patronising to point out this out - it's a glaring truth that jumps off the screen. It's also not patronising to point out that the majority of women who believe exclusive breastfeeding is not physiologically possible for them (ie, the majority of breastfeeding mothers in the UK)are probably mistaken. You can't take part in any sensible discussion of this topic without acknowledging these two facts.