OK, I get BF, but am totally fucked off with the smugness

[FunnysInTheGarden]

Most of us are failed BF, but the tone on here recently has really pissed me off. We generally FF? Non? So why the smug shit and the passive aggressiveness towards those who have to/chose to FF?

So tempted to name names, but I won't.

Just stop being so smug and holier than thou please, some people

pommedeterre - thankyou. I thought that was what she was trying to do. However, the level of vitriol aimed at her made me wonder if she was also advocating eating babies. Or possibly drowning puppies.

pomme - I disagree, you can change culture. I can't remember exactly which country it was (Brazil, Sri Lanka, somewhere foreign I can't recall) banned all formula marketing etc and breastfeeding rates rocketed. This was mentioned at length in The Politics of Breastfeeding.

(I should get paid for advertising TPOB - I mention it enough!)

annec555 well said!

Pdt:
"I think, Slhilly that culture cannot be changed. it certainly cannot be changed very quickly."
Why do you think that? Culture is very amenable to change, for better or worse. Jemjabella mentions one example. Legislation, social marketing, commercial marketing, campaigns, media commentary, activism -- all of these and other factors contribute to changing culture.

Pdt:
"I think encouraging women to do the best they can, for as long as they can with breastfeeding is the way forwards. This would involve also being non judgemental either way - vs ff or bf."
I think encouraging women is necessary but far from sufficient. I also think that if not done carefully, it lays the entire responsibility on the mother. I don't think being non-judgemental is self-evidently the right way forward. We are judgemental about other choices to help shape behaviour and opinions, and rightly so. And the fetishisation of choice, the sexualisation / faux-prudery of the breast, the characterisation of BF leaflets/posters as "hectoring", the pictures of idiotic slebs promoting bottles in idiotic sleb magazines, all of this is cultural judgement that needs to be fought against.

"I think that the fact that figures for the first week/two weeks/month for bf are quite high is the thing to focus on instead. Why berate ourselves and our culture for the four month mark? That may come in time."
Quite high? I don't think 35% at one week is high, nor the two weeks or one month figures. I don't think any of the figures are high. I picked out one figure for the sake of brevity, not because any of the others are better.

"Catastrophe? Hmm, odd word. we are all still standing as a human race and the majority of our generation were ff. Why catastrophe exactly? I am not disputing in any way the advantages of bm but just slightly questioning your emphasis on the importance of bf in our culture? I think it would be nicer if other aspects of childhood/society were balanced out first. if I were given funds and a choice higher bf rates would not be too high up my list I don't think. Increased activity and better nutrition among children would beat it by miles imo."
Well, we're not all still standing, though, are we? There's lots of morbidity and premature mortality due to avoidable health conditions, especially those related to obesity, diabetes, heart disease, cancer and respiratory disease. BF lowers prevalence for many illnesses and avoidable health conditions -- it's a phenomenally effective health intervention and it is, as I say, bordering on a catastrophe that we aren't using it properly. As for where to invest funds, it'd be nice if we had the funds to invest in any public health interventions properly, but the combination of the reduction in funding for health and LAs, plus the white paper and the advent of GP commissioning, plus the destruction of programme funding at DH, means that we can put any thoughts of well-funded public health interventions to one side for a couple of years, sadly.

Life expectancy is now higher than at any point it has been in history. That surely counts as more than still standing?
Perhaps ff is nature's way of natural selection in the face of modern medical advances. Joke by the way...
The figures are surely higher than they were though pre breast is best, no? That must in some way be seen as an accomplishment?
But, in many ways is the entire responsability for how she choses to feed her baby not with the mother?
Please do not mistake my questions for being 'anti bm' or 'pro ff' in anyway. The benefits of bm cannot be disputed. The satisfactory and therefore life saving qualities of ff cannot be disputed. I hoped to be able to bf for longer than I did and hope to be lucky enough to have a second and hope to bf that baby for longer. I cannot however sanction the emphasis of bf that creates guilt and self hatred among mothers (and, yes, you are correct this does depend in some cases on a lack of support) and cannot sanction the way some mothers seem to place bf above other elements of mothering.

I think it was Brazil that kicked the formula manufacturers in the teeth and really got behind promoting BFing. Worked a treat as well.

It is cultural it has to be, it is the only thing that explains the different levels of BFing in different countries.

I know I shouldn't be but i'm terribly amused by poor old Tabouleh being decried as some wicked tit-pusher.

Tabouleh, you are very gracious.

I wasnt actually sure what the definition of smug was so I looked it up.

having or showing an excessive pride in oneself or one's achievements

If I am honest I think I have an excessive pride in myself for breastfeeding for so long, and now for being able to tandem feed both lil ones. I am positively brimming with pride internally.

I certainly dont show excessive pride, either on MN or in real life. In fact in real life I am probably very embarrassed to be feeding a 2.4 year old at the same time as a baby! I wish I could show more pride in feeding my toddler but for some reason I dont like being the odd one out.

This thread however has inspired me to change my MN name in honour of all the lovely BFing info I have learnt on here. There. I am out of the smug closet.

I dont think there is anything too wrong with being excessively proud as long as you dont say judgemental things to others for not doing what you have done.

Thats the problem . Some people have a sense of humour and admit to some smuggery re BF. Others don't and use their smuggery to, by the by, have a dig at FF.

I have never had anything but admiration for people who BF successfully for as long as they wish.

What does piss me off, as you all know, is that some people think that those who BF and those who FF are poles apart and don't hesitate to point out the 'risks' of FF as opposed to BF. Please, we know FF is vastly inferior to BM, but please don't bang on about it when asked a question about how to heat a bottle of milk.

Incidentally, although many have given a definition of smug, in my book being smug is an unpleasant trait at best, and not simply pride in ones achievements. It's not great to say 'if I'm being smug, then so be it' It's very rude

jemjabella 'somewhere foreign, I can't recall' How VERY politically incorrect of you. Provided we get BF rates up, who gives a shit which actual country you use by way of example

FunnysInTheGarde - are you always a self-righteous cunt, or just when multiple posters have proved you wrong?

I was nursing (uh oh, smug breastfeeder!) and didn't want to disturb my baby to find the bloody book. But now I'm not, and it was Brazil. It was the Health Secretary in Brazil in the 70s that inspired the change. Banning the distribution of formula and bottles in all maternity hospitals, running a 6 week pro-breastfeeding on TV & radio, revising The Code, etc. Their infant death rate dropped from 136/1000 to 20/1000, as the median duration of breastfeeding rose from 2 to 10 months.

Brings us full circle back to Tab's campaign I suspect - how many of the 116 could be attributed to formula made up incorrectly I wonder?
10 months as an average is great. Any info on what the investment in terms of support would have been? Do they have an NCT equivalent? I so wish it had been the NCT I turned to when needing bf support.

Funny has some previous in being v. unpleasant and rather personal about this issue. I really don't understand how she feels she has time to be bothered about other people's informed, measured, contribution to making ff safer for babies, and those who work at making bf better and more supported. She really has a smug attitude that's quite off-putting, and which I suspect is a carapace for a chip on her shoulder several miles high (mixing metaphors, soz :) )

Starting a thread like this is trolling, really.

A bit sad, I suppose.

Going back to the 'No normal tired mother with one or more children would have any where near the time you have to be as evangelical about how formula is made up. Unless they are being paid to do so that is.'

Well, when I'm not being 'evangelical' about how formula is made up, I'm also a bfing peer supporter who does as a minimum between 5 and 8 hours volunteering a week. Now that doesn't sound like much but I have 3 small children (4.6, 2.10 and 11 m/o), I have PND-OCD (so have ishoos to work on), I'm trying to find a job, I'm on a playgroup committee, a mother & baby group committee, I do endless online surveys to raise a bit of cash, a house to run, etc, etc.

Non of my volunteer activities net me any money (hence the looking for a job and online surveys ) but I still care enough about children's health that when I speak to a mother and she wants to formula feed/is thinking of mix feeding I explain how to safely prepare formula and why. Not in a judgemental way but in a 'why didn't anyone tell me how to make up formula when I needed to ffed DD1?' way.

I FULLY support women making the decision to ffed or to bfed or mix fed. I may not understand their reasons and no-one owes me any explanations so I don't ask mums to 'explain' themselves. I just want to help and support women to bfeed for as long as they want, whether that is the first feed, the first 3 weeks or till the child self weans. The more women who feel supported and confident in their baby feeding choices the better for everyone.

A women who feels she has no recourse but to ffed due to lack of support/pressure from family/poor information may not feel secure she has made the right choice (even if ffing IS the right choice in the circumstances). A woman who has been supported, advised and given all the information relevant to her situation and makes a decision to ffed in light of this will hopefully be a happy confident mother who is pleased she has made the right choice for her family. I know this goes against the grain for the public perception of lactavists but I don't believe that a mother should be castigated for making a choice that is not 'the best'(please note inverted commas).

Breastmilk is the best food for the vast majority of babies but breastfeeding might not be the best feeding method for mother OR baby (exceptions do apply to babies with galactosaemia or other metabolic disorders re. breastmilk). Safely prepared formula has it's place in this world.

I wish more people bfed in the same way I wish more people would recycle or use more public transport. I don't shout at people who drive cars or who throw plastic bottles away and I most certainly don't put down mothers who ffed.

I think Tab is fantastic and I am so grateful to her for raising this issue I just wish I knew about the 70C thing back in 2006 when DD1 was on formula.

to add to what Jemjella said: a couple of other countries have turned back to breastfeeding as Brazil did.

Papua New Guinea also had horrific figures for infant mortality and low breastfeeding rates in the 70s. Bans on formula and bottle promotions went into place and breastfeeding rates rose as mortality fell.

I also understand that Cuba had a similar change. Cheap free formula came in from the Soviet Union but once communism collapsed there was no access to it and breastfeeding rates took off again.

How these small countries increased bfing rates I think also lies in the way they view breasts as well as not completely losing the breastfeeding language within the communities so it was easier to recover it. These are entirely my opinion, however.

Very good post truthsweet.

I have met a few people in rl who have been smug about bfing but they are in the minority and if they weren't being smug about bfing it would be something else as they are that type.

thedollshouse - Some people think they are living in a Marks & Spencers advert

'You use own brand nappies for your baby? I use Pampers',

'You give baby homemade family food? I give baby organic handmilled baby rice?',

'You haven't taken your baby to the dentist yet at 6 m/o when they have no teeth? Mine has been to the dentist every month since they were 2 weeks old'

'You live in a terrace? We live in a 6 bedroom detached house with 3 acres of landscaped garden'

'You don't use a ioniser for the nursery? What do you mean they don't have a nursery and they sleep next to you????'

Anything some people do there is something Mrs Smuggy-Smuggerson can do better - it's definitely not limited to bfing. My pet hate (can ya tell?)

My my jemjabella how very classy of you.

And tiktok I am only 'unpleasant' because some replies in this topic warrant it.

Anyway, clearly very few people are going to agree with me, in this topic at least, so shall we call it a day? Or shall we continue slinging mud?

Just to reiterate in case anyone missed it in the general slanging match. I am not anti BF, far from it, I would just like a bit more balance. Just a nod to the fact there are FF on this board too, and we deserve as much respect as BF do.

jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/jn.108.097675v1?ct=ct

jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/jn.108.097675v1?ct=ct

Classy is my middle name.

i think there is quite a lot of defensiveness here? i am not smug about the fact i bf but it is the hardest thing (after childbirth!) that i have ever done/achieved and i am pretty damn proud of myself for it! i understand that many women have problems when they try to bf but i also see so many women 'give up' far to easily and my personal opinion is i think that is selfish but that is just my honest thoughts on it. i do not think formula is evil but i have worked through many many bf problems as i want my children to have my breastmilk as i think there is nothing to compare to it and the benefits for both child and mother. i do feel that women who can bf should bf!

MsK~alo - And that is absolutely fine. Hope you never say that to a ff-er in real life though. You'd upset many and if you picked a feisty one you'd get a black eye. I'd be of the second variety

why not! it is my opinion! i have said it in conversations and women who disagree can do so - if they are happy with their choice why should they be bothered what i think unless they are being defensive! i am not asking anyone to agree with me but I do think that people should bf if they can and I DO think that many women give up easily because it is hard or because it is so time consuming on the mother and as a mum you are the one always feeding the baby. i am not talking about genuine problems, but i personally would prefer it if bf was more the cultural norm as it is in countries such as Canada. I just can't get my head around why women won't bf if they can when the benefits to their baby is so amazing. just my opinion and as everyone is entitled to one, here is mine!