OK, I get BF, but am totally fucked off with the smugness

[FunnysInTheGarden]

Most of us are failed BF, but the tone on here recently has really pissed me off. We generally FF? Non? So why the smug shit and the passive aggressiveness towards those who have to/chose to FF?

So tempted to name names, but I won't.

Just stop being so smug and holier than thou please, some people

Shocked at the OP. Wasn't going to jump in atthis stage but the OP annoyed me too much!

Have never witnessed the "smug shit and the passive aggressiveness towards those who have to/chose to FF" that the OP is referring to. All I have seen on here is support for those wanting to breastfeed and going through tough times.

I cannot believe that anyone would be attacked for making people more aware of how to feed their babies safely. I am actually shocked at this.

OP, why do you keep asking for evidence - why should people provide you with evidence? Look it up yourself, there is plenty of it. It's is well known that:

Breastfeeding helps protect your baby against:

* ear infections
* gastro-intestinal infections
* chest infections
* urine infections
* childhood diabetes
* eczema
* obesity
* asthma.

Breastfeeding helps protect mothers against:

* ovarian cancer
* breast cancer
* weak bones later in life.

I am not exactly anti ff, but I am pro bf and I will not feel guilty for trying to promote breastfeeding when I can.
It is best for my DD and best for me. Who would be stupid enough to argue otherwise!

While I would never, ever, try to make formula feeding mums feel guilty for feeding their baby formula, I will always promote the benefits of breastfeeding. The fact is

Smug? Well, to be smug means "having or showing an excessive pride in oneself or one's achievements"...mmmmm, do I feel an excessive amount of pride for being able to feed my DD for 6 months? Yes, actually I do. Do I feel bad for feeling this way? No, I do not.

gosh - if only I was being paid for it!

Seriously - I AM NOT BEING PAID BY ANYONE to post here - sheesh - talk about conspiracy theories. .

I really don't see why I should explain myself at all - but I am a pretty open person: I am freelance - I work for myself - DS is nursery part time and I am between contracts and I have been quite unwell recently without much energy for anything much other than surfing the internet.

I can get quite obsessional passionate about things I am interested in.

When I get back from my holiday I have some work which will take me away from MN out of the house - so I may be less prolific, but still committed to info about FFing.

As I get older I am becoming much more political/activist re causes I am in interested in.

tab

Your enthusiasm and passion is a credit to you and makes a real difference to people who may otherwise not be touched by anyone else.

I suggest we drop this thread, ignore any attempts for further provocation and recognise that all we're all trying to do here is make things better for our babies and to support other parents (and get support when we need it).

Enough, ok?

OK tabouleh I understand where you are coming from.

haverina 'not exactly anti FF' is exactly what I mean.

I am not 'exactly anti bf' either

I breastfed my son until he was 13 weeks old, but had to stop when a medical condition led to me having to have several operations. I never felt guilty about it until I started using mumsnet. But this is only because I now feel in posession of the facts, which I was not previously. Reading supportive threads has helped me perservere with breast feeding dd, and I agree with most others that I feel proud, but (esp after previous experiences) certainly not smug that I have been able to do so.

Funnys - lay if. Tabouleh. It's not on to attack people personally. If you have such issues with the people on here, maybe it's not the place for you. I know that netmums have seperate bottle and breast feeding forums.

I am starting to wonder if funny is the person being paid here, her defense of the formula manufacturers in the face of evidence of their slackness/greed is a bit odd.

I have 2 kids and want formula to be as safe as possible. What is the alternative? Burying your head in the sand and not wanting people to have important info because it upsets you?

Who would be paying someone to inform people that formula is not sterile and needs careful handling? There is no money in BFing.

funny, before you just sounded pissed off, now you are sounding a bit bonkers... don't you think it's about time you just took a deep breath and admitted you were in a foul mood when you posted and that you were barking at the wrong people?

I'm a fully paid up supporter of BMA, that must make me smug.

When do I get my cheque for supporting breastfeeders?

Maybe tabouleh is being sponsored by the evil breast pad industry which has been implicated in literally no deaths or illness in babies and small children?

heheh

Funny, I knew you would pick up on me saying that.

I recently read this online and I think that this sprobably sums up most breastfeeders feelings on this issue:

I am sick of being labelled as "anti-bottle feeding" or "anti-formula" because I am an lactivist. Lets get something straight, most of us lactivists have nothing against a mother who is bottle-feeding or using formula.

How you feed your baby is your own personal choice, of course it is. No one is trying to make you feel guilty for formula feeding. What people on here are trying to do is provide those who want to breastfeed with support to continue...because it is simply the best way to feedyour baby (not the only way and not always possible, but the best).

And what tabouleh is trying to do is to provide information about the best practices to follow when formula feeding. I can't see how she would have any ill intent in giving this advice. What would she have to gain?

Haven't read the whole thread but I've not really noticed any of the smugness etc that the OP describes on MN.

I breast fed DD to 12 months and had all sorts of problems (mastitis, cracked nipples, a lot of pain, poor milk supply etc) and got endless support and good advice from the more experienced and knowledgeable MNers.

Just don't see what the OP is on about.

Who could have a vested interest in undermining ffing? There's no money to be made in bfing is there? Unless it's the makers of camomile lotion and nursing bras

Aha! That's who tabouleh's working for the little minx...

jandmmum -- double-blind RCTs are not the only way of gathering evidence. The link between smoking and cancer was demonstrated through observational studies. As for your discussion of your own kids, the plural of anecdote is not data, as they say.

Frankly, I don't think people are anywhere near forceful enough about promoting breastfeeding. I think there's a lot of pussyfooting around to protect people's feelings, when the truth is:

• the benefits of BF are well-established and significant. Food keeps us alive, but some food is better than other food, and while formula is fine, breastmilk is excellent. Of course, I could provide links, as has been demanded, and as others have done, but I'd rather challenge back and say to those demanding such links: why don't you provide me with some decent evidence showing that formula confers the same benefits as breastmilk? Cos I've looked in the literature and not seen anything to suggest that it's the case, but you keep banging on about how breastmilk isn't really better than formula and I think you're telling tales and anecdotes to yourself to make yourself feel better about the decision you made.
• true physiological inability to BF successfully is extremely rare -- prevalence well under 1% in cultures where BF is the norm. Instead...
• the main driver of low BF rates is culture, and we have a culture that is extremely unsupportive of BF and that has become more so over time. BF is a difficult physical skill to master. Women have historically learned to BF through routinely seeing it done, day-in and day-out, from early childhood onwards, and through extensive advice available at the time of need from experienced BFers ie other mums were around at 3am to help women through crises. Women were supported to BF by an expectation that they would be able to do it ("of course I believe in your ability to BF, I believe in your ability to walk and take a dump too!"), and by being relieved of many of the normal tasks of daily living immediately post-partum by the community in which they lived. Women in the UK today don't have those advantages. Instead, BF has become denormalised, hidden away, and formula feeding is normalised. The net result is that more than 80% of British babies get most of their nutrition from the bottle rather than the breast in the first months of life, and that is not because British breasts are somehow more prone to failure than cultures where 99% of babies get their nutrition from bottles.

If only I were being handed brown envelopes full of cash from Elle MacPherson.

I certainly deserve it, I have 7 of her bras at about £30 each.

slhilly, I totally agree - HCP's need to be doing more to promote bf'ing. The benefits are skimmed over by midwives. Plus, breastfeeding mums are regularly made to feel like crap for chosing to breastfeed beyond a few weeks as if we are abnormal!

harverina, I agree with the need for HCPs to play their part. But they can't fight the culture war alone. That requires a broader coalition. Borrowing from feminist thinking, I'd say it requires a radical reappraisal of societal structures to make breastfeeding a straightforward and credible possibility for the majority of women.

Reflecting further on what the OP said about smug. I can speak for no-one but myself, but my overwhelming feeling is not so much smugness as sadness: I see it as at least a travesty and edging towards a catastrophe that breastfeeding has been turned into something that most British mothers do not do. In my view, it would be excellent for mothers and babies if 93% of babies were being exclusively breastfed at four months. Instead, the figure in the last Infant Feeding Survey was the converse: 7%.

I think, Slhilly that culture cannot be changed. it certainly cannot be changed very quickly. I think encouraging women to do the best they can, for as long as they can with breastfeeding is the way forwards. This would involve also being non judgemental either way - vs ff or bf.
I think that the fact that figures for the first week/two weeks/month for bf are quite high is the thing to focus on instead. Why berate ourselves and our culture for the four month mark? That may come in time.
Catastrophe? Hmm, odd word. we are all still standing as a human race and the majority of our generation were ff. Why catastrophe exactly? I am not disputing in any way the advantages of bm but just slightly questioning your emphasis on the importance of bf in our culture?
I think it would be nicer if other aspects of childhood/society were balanced out first. if I were given funds and a choice higher bf rates would not be too high up my list I don't think. Increased activity and better nutrition among children would beat it by miles imo.

Like several other posters, I was going to avoid posting on this thread, mainly because I left another forum out of sheer boredom over the ridiculous BF-FF rows.
However, the sheer level of bloody-minded spite displayed by the OP has goaded me into posting - if you read the thread as a whole, it is quite clear that this is just an unpleasant rant by someone with nothing to contribute to the ongoing debate, no positive message or support,just a great big bag of negativity and bile.
Firstly, surely, surely, everyone knows by now that breast milk is better than formula and that babies who are breastfed are at lower risk of various illnesses and conditions. I don't know why the OP is obsessively demanding "proof". There is a massive body of research out there - very little of it is controversial. All it takes is a single google search. I suspect the OP is just trying to be as irritating as possible by making people annoyed enough to labour over lists of links to the research.
Secondly, why do these type of arguments always finish up with someone referring to the "formula is poison" issue? I have seen it said by a BFing mum ONCE on another forum and she was shouted down. It is always someone who formula feeds who introduces it into the debate - "oh so I'm poisoning my baby am I?"
Thirdly, what on god's earth is wrong with people encouraging, publicising, even chivvying a bit, when it comes to BFing? We all know it is the best thing for a baby in the vast majority of circumstances. Why on earth would we not want BFing to be promoted wherever and whenever possible? Would people actually prefer that something so amazing and beneficial should be ignored and brushed under the carpet simply because people who didn't do it, don't like it?
The whole situation is ludicrous.
I know all about feeling bad about failing at BFing. Despite having the most amazing level of support, none of the tried and tested methods succeeded in increasing my supply and my baby became supremely unco-operative with the process. I finished up mix feeding from 2 weeks and fully formula feeding from 3 months. Seeing information about the possible risks of FFing doesn't make me go "ooh, what fun. Isn't it great that my baby is getting less than the best!" It doesn't give me a little warm glow. But I am not egocentric enough to think that for my own personal comfort, everyone else in the country should pretend that a spade is not a spade.
Sorry to ramble on - this sort of thing just drives me insane as every time someone posts something like this, it deepens the feeding divide and makes the job of those who want to promote and encourage BFing that little bit harder. I see far more of this sort of post - accusations of BFing militancy, than I do of the type of behaviour complained of.
Finally, why are people so hell-bent on making Tabouleh out to be some sort of crusading loon? I haven't been active on the forum for very long and I have already seen some really nasty digs at her - what exactly is she supposed to have done that is so offensive?

annec555 - Tabouleh is trying to get information on how to ff properly set out on the site and the internet as a whole. I personally think that what she is doing is very admirable and it is the lack of this info that makes ff risky.
Some people see this as interfering, wrong and unnecessary. These people are not making feeds correctly and feel attacked for firstly not bf and then secondly for making formula up the wrong way.