Trans People

[Lovenliving]

It is eye opening to see all the concerns that people on here and generally have around toilets and wards and sharing space with men. Even when they identify as women.

I do wonder if they see any parallels with how Black people might feel around white people. Personally, I am not worried about a man being in the toilets, I am worried that some sort of race related incident will occur while me and my loved ones are in a enclosed space without witnesses. I am worried that my stud relatives and friends who are already seen as masculine due to their Blackness will be harassed by white people while they frequent women's spaces.

I worry about how this idea that all men are an equal danger to women impacts on my Black teenage son in terms of how white women treat him in public and at work. I saw him go from Black boy to Black man and how people responded to him differently as a result. Normalising this response to men without understanding your own racial bias will increase microaggressions against Black people. White women will believe it is ok to treat Black men like dangerous predators and definitely more dangerous than men who are white. This isnt something we need more of for Black people. It kills Black men.

Honestly, in the grand scale of living as a Black mother in the UK, this trans issue is so far from my radar as things that mess up our life as a Black family in the UK. The thought that out of 100 people I might meet in a public bathroom, 1 might have been born a boy. It highlights how different at least my life is from the average white woman on Mumsnet.

True, but privacy goes both ways in a way that safety doesn’t. Men are perfectly entitled to privacy from women too; they don’t particularly want trans men in their spaces either.

Your point is well made, OP.

As a privileged white woman I don't really personally care much about toilets - I can move elsewhere to go to the bathroom - or changing rooms - I can choose not to try something on.

My main concern on this issue is more with spaces where women and girls have no choice about being in the space or who is also in the space. In particular prisons and shelters. And I understand that BAME women are disproportionally represented in these populations.

It shouldn't be compared. Sorry.
Both are legit concerns for some.

What is depressing though is that racism is still a thing. Not only is it a thing, it's getting worse instead of better ffs. Society is going backwards at a worryingly fast rate and tbh, I think it's by design by those in position of power and money.

That's your boundary.

I definitely think every changing room should have cubicle options.

However, can you accept many women have a hard boundary about changing in the same room as a biological male, especially an unknown one?

Even if it's all cubicles, there is still higher assault risk.

AGP is well documented among middle aged men who transition to women. It is docented many AGPs are aroused by changing rooms & being near women undressing. Another reason many women want single sex changing rooms.

Is that really all you got from my post?

As I’ve said already, several times.

I care and understand about the point OP is making and I’m sympathetic and upset that still today, in 2025, she and her family are experiencing those issues.

I also still don’t fucking want men in women’s spaces and playing in women’s sports.

I understand that racism is a bigger problem in her everyday life than men in women’s toilets.

That doesn’t mean she should welcome men into women’s spaces or be fine with it bc it hasn’t affected her.

Do you see?

Exactly, and no one GC thinks trans men should be forcing their way in either...
They seem a much more polite bunch, for some reason! 🤔

A thing!

it’s massive.. not a thing - it’s structurally embedded in our institutions

not sure it is regressing because I don’t think it’s made much progress

Stephen Lawrence still doesn’t have justice

watch “the colour of fear” - made in the 80s - it could have been made yesterday - same views are being peddled by white people - it’s only the clothes that give it away that it was made in the 80s imv

This is such a weird viewpoint showing a fundamental misunderstanding @Lovenliving.

Feminists do not hate or fear trans people.

Only racists hate or fear black people.

There are no parallels.

For any kind of women's facilities of exist (of which toilets are the most trivial but also most ubiquitous - things like hospital wards, particularly mental health wards, and prisons are much more important though needed by fewer women) they have to exclude men. If any man who wishes to enter can go in, the facilities are by definition mixed-sex. If transwomen are women and the only acceptable definition for a male person to be considered a transwoman is self-declaration (and every other possible criteria for being a transwoman isobvious sexist bollocks as soon as you try to put it into words) then clearly any women's facility that admits transwomen is de facto open to all men as any man can make such a declaration at any time and there is no objective measure for assessing whether such a declaration meets any kind of threshold for "correctness" even if such a threshold could be defined so it is open to any male who wants it. Therefore if transwomen are admitted it is a mixed sex facility and calling it a women's facility is a lie. In some cases mixed sex facilites are ok, but they should be honestly labelled as such. However there are good and valid reasons why sometimes it is appropriate for something to be provided for women only and when that is so, it can only rationally be provided for actual female people - not for any male people who want to have it too.

There's no parallel or equivalence to the othering of black people. There are no good or valid reasons to segregate facilities on the basis of race.

Your point of White women will believe it is ok to treat Black men like dangerous predators and definitely more dangerous than men who are white. This isnt something we need more of for Black people. It kills Black men. also shows a total and utter misunderstanding. The whole point is that there is no scale of "safe" vs "dangerous" - no one can tell until it's too late. No black man or boy should be treated as more suspicious due to the colour of his skin. Part of achieving that is that no man or boy of any skin colour should be treated as less suspicious because he is wearing a skirt or some eyeliner. In fact it's not about suspicion at all. If all male people stay out, that's the only way to ensure that the actually dangerous ones are out. Because the vast majority of men are not dangerous, there is no stigma to being kept out, and neither black men nor transwomen are being "treated as dangerous" for simply being expected to respect the validity of the existence of women-only facilities.

With a culture-shift back to everyone accepting that all males, of any gender identity, will stay out of womens spaces, the difficulties encountered by more masculine-looking female people (of which I am one) ought to decrease. Women are on-edge because of the number of male people who unashamedly publicly declare that they will continue to nonconsensually violate women's boundaries.

I'm really sorry you're worried about your stud lesbian relatives.

I know that black women's gender presentation is already scrutinised more,as well as masculine lesbians'. But the worry over toilets has only led to more scrutiny. Trans women being allowed in women's loos has not helped the issue, the opposite.

So you are saying:

In order to help black women defeat and deal with racism - we should not be concerned about the trans issue (which the OP literally brought up and is the thread title)?? We should not discuss it because it takes away from the issue of racism?

Okay. Gotcha.

Which institutions?

I’m saying don’t make it the issue you are - racism is far more important

every time you keep on about it yes it takes away from black womens voices

Indeed. Funny, that!

The usual ones - you know social institutions

you can work it out

Excuse me? You pick up on 'a thing'? Ok.
I think it's getting worse. It's also far more open - just look on social media, it's horrific.
Hate crimes have increased (started increasing after brexit).
It's well known that people blame other minorities and 'foreigners' when times are hard.
It's getting worse, not better. Sorry, been around since the 1970's, it was horrific in the 70's. Yes, it's always here but it has fluctuated. It's worse now than I've seen for some time and it makes me very angry and sad.

I’m glad to hear your angry and sad about it

I am glad you are (finally) happy with something I wrote.
sigh

One way in which racism can manifest is the masculinisation of black women.This is a proven phenomenon , and prevalent in media , films , social media and day to day interactions(from personal ones to systemic racism situations).While men out of women’s spaces is an absolute win, one effect is that some (white) women , in their eagerness to celebrate and evict /confront men out of their spaces , will end up confronting black women for not being feminine enough. Black women having to justify their existence in a space that is theirs and that they have fought just as much (and more in the past) for.

That’s one of the things OP is concerned about , if I’m not mistaken, and it has been completely dismissed.

Considering it and acknowledging it, costs nothing. It doesn’t take anything away.

Exactly.

It's completely illogical, and selfish,to say one huge problem is not important just because you yourself haven't had any big issues with it in your daily life.

It doesn't need to be a zero-sum game.

Thank you for explaining that clearly

Everything, deep rooted.

Medicine.
Education.
Courts.
Police.
Workplace/employment opportunities.

To name a few.

Police, schools, education, justice system, hospitals to name just a few.

Do you think the education system is structurally racist?
Hospitals...Black women have shamefully higher mortality rate, so structural racism there seems likely..