Am I being a snowflake about this - name of a nursery that is similar to something I find offensive ?

[Putoffalot]

AIBU to not want to send my child (of a mixed heritage) to a childminder with a name that is very similar to something offensive (GW). It’s come up when searching and is the closest to my work but I can’t even contemplate contacting them as it’s too close to the name of an offensive item ?

Because you’re failing to understand why someone might find this nursery rhyme offensive. Further, if my husband has explicitly told me he does find it offensive and explained why and I can understand and respect his opinion, and for this reason, I choose to not recite it or repeat to our children, why is that crazy? I don’t give a sh*t about its origins. If he finds it offensive do you really think I’m going to minimise his feelings?

My husband is black and finds both these nursery rhymes offensive and I can totally understand and see why. I won’t repeat the names my children have been called. No one is playing victim. You simply don’t respect mine (or my husbands) feelings. You can just get over it and go to bed like you said you were doing…

Your husband finds it offensive due to his lack of knowledge.

Its mind blowing that someone would choose to keep believing something that isn’t true. You’re actually choosing to find racism where there is none.

There is more than enough racism about without having to make shit up.

It’s not for you to tell me or him why he finds it offensive. I’m sure he’s not the only person in the world who does or would, but even if he was, it wouldn’t matter as I’m not going to minimise how he feels, especially when I actually can see his point of view.

Well you’ve said you believe that master = slave master in the rhyme so I can only conclude that that is why your DH finds it offensive. If so, your DH is simply mistaken and could easily rectify his finding offence in a none racist rhyme by educating himself a little.

Is he Black British?

Thank you for that. Well, thank you for the knowledge. I had no idea. That is awful.

I’ve never heard of that word. I’m white but wouldn’t be sending my children to a nursery with that name. It’s not a common word for tadpoles so it’s a deliberate choice of the owner to use a word that sounds similar to a racism term and also has the ‘w’ word at the end. Trust your instincts OP. 💐

Sorry but your husband is wrong @MumWifeOther - he can be offended of course, anyone has the right to be, but he is wrong that Baa Baa Black Sheep has any racist origins.

It refers to the wool taxation system that died out around the 15th century, where the King took a third of the value of each bale or bag of wool. Hence, the song divides up the wool into 'three bags full'. Master here refers to simply the landowner or the king (the landowner would collect taxes from his tenants to pass to the king).

Black sheep were significant to people at the time, because whilst black wool would not take a dye for fancy coloured cloth, it did also mean people could make black and white yarn and weave patterned cloth and knit patterned fabric without needing expensive dyes.

This has been done to death since the mid 1980s and people have looked very very hard to find racist associations or meaning in the origins of the rhyme, and they have failed to do so.

More disappointing is the idea that Tigger from WTP is racist - Tigger is a childs toy, a new addition to a small boys collection of stuffed animals, in the original story (again I discount Disneys frankly revolting treatment of the characters, I am talking about the original stories) the animals of 100 Acre woods, work together to find out what Tigger likes to eat best as, despite claiming that he likes everything, it turns out he doesn't like any of the things he tries until he tries the 'strengthening medicine' (malt extract) that Kanga feeds her baby Roo.

Subsequently, Tigger is effectively adopted by Kanga and lives with her and Roo.

Far from a racist tale, its a lovely tale of a newcomer joining an existing group of friends and being helped and taken in by them!

They really couldn’t contain their excitement when they finally had a chance to (almost) use their favourite slurs!

I get you. It’s a bit like one of those words that makes some people squirm because of trivial associations (we have MN threads about them all the time) - but in this case it’s as far from a trivial association as it’s possible to be.

People aren't getting defensive and screaming snowflake. OP specifically asked if she is a being a snowflake so it's perfectly reasonable for people to say yes, in my opinion you are being a snowflake. They are responding to HER question. And some people find the term snowflake, that OP chose to use, offensive too.

I suppose the whole issue boils down to the fact that psychologically speaking, living as a less powerful minority within a more powerful majority means that people view the world through different lenses.

Take the Baa Baa example.
Objectively speaking the rhyme does not stem from anything connected to racism. It has been passed down for generations without racial connotations.

However, it is also understandable that once someone misinterpreted the rhyme, and saw/added "racism" to it, and this presumably would have been done precisely because of the very real racism present in society, not because they pulled it out of a hat, then this incorrect interpretation spread.

I think we should try and accept that both sides of every argument can be simultaneously valid.

The psychological effects of historical racism need more time to be completely eradicated and therefore it is probable that a proportion of interactions will be interpreted as racist even when this wasn't the intention.

In our day to day life there is true racist intent present as well as what we may interpret as racism. Calling people snowflakes because they understandably cannot differentiate easily between the two isn't helpful.

In the OP's case no-one can say for sure what the intent was behind the choice of name for the nursery.
It's hardly surprising that people will interpret the intent differently based on their own life experiences.

GWs are a very British thing, so the nursery name in a country that doesn't have these dolls and where pollywog is a common word would be OK. But the Brirish context makes it highly questionable, especially as pollywog is 100% not a common word here.

OP is not saying 'it is de facto racist and must be banned.' She's discussing why she feels uncomfortable with it, and her reasons are entirely justified.

Similarly the tigger conversation which I really didn't want to fuel but its taken me back to my childhood. My mother used 'baby' in the rhyme but when I got to school I heard both n and tigger used. It's obvious why one eventually replaced the other, but MumWifeOther said that she feels uncomfortable with the word for its association in the context of the rhyme. That's not the same as saying the word is de facto racist and mustn't be used by anybody.

I still have WTP books on my shelf and I wouldn't stop my children reading them because the context for them is different and they wouldn't make that association.

I dont have a problem with baa baa black sheep, but I can see how some might depending on their cultural context. Again, no one is calling for it to be banned or saying that it is objectively racist.

The people getting mad on this thread aren't the black people, as usual it's the stubbornly blind, racist apologists getting their knickers in a twist.

And some people try really really hard to not listen to and try to understand people when they say they are offended.

This is the problem. If I (and Im sure many on here) dont understand why something is offensive - they ask the person who is offended to explain why it is so they understand. This is especially important if that person is from another culture, race, has different life experience to them. The intention is not to invalidate that persons feelings but to listen and understand.

Why cant you do that - or at least try to? Its really not hard.

It happened to me last year. Long story short I complimented a colleagues hair. She is black. Her and several black colleagues took offense. I could have gotten uppity and outraged and sulked. But I didnt - I apologised, asked questions and listened and now I understand. Im not black so I didnt get it, but I would never ever want to upset anyone, so I made the effort to understand the root of the offense. Now I keep my mouth firmly shut.

Excellent post.

The insults and laughing emojis have not come from people who feel uncomfortable but rather from the racist apologists.

I am not black but I am from the BAME group. This, however, does not give me any right to tell black and dual heritage people how to feel and how to perceive words. My experiences may relate to yours but they’re not exactly the same, so I should shut up, sit down and listen.

.....

The person being utterly ridiculous on here is a white woman (no surprise there). And as for your advice - I certainly will not be taking advice from a white woman who believes making comments in the workplace about a Black woman's hair is appropriate. And you dont seem to have learned - you're not keeping your mouth shut (you've come on here telling me my views/ feelings dont count). Go lecture a fellow white woman please, and leave me alone.

Baa Baa Black Sheep?

The only other word I've ever heard used for tadpoles is tiddlers.

Don't think I'd use that for a nursery either

Original version: Bah, Bah, a black Sheep,
Have you any Wool,
Yes merry have I,
Three Bags full,
One for my Master,
One for my Dame,
One for my Little Boy
That lives in the lane

It was probably written in the 18th century and is very English

But it doesn't!

It was a common word for 'boss' historically.

The original was 'none' for little boy.

Poor Tigger he is completely innocent.

What a stupid name for a nursery. Clearly they weren't thinking about black or mixed-race families when they named themselves that. It's just typical white insularity.

I’m not white. I’m not black either, but I’m not white.