Why isn't depressing seated racism on MN challenged more?

[FloweryCurtainTwitcher]

So. I am not black but I am not white. My great grandparents (as far as I know) were EE Jewish, black African , white African, Irish, North African and white British x3 . One of my parents was born and raised in West Africa until age 15ish.

As a child growing up in white rural England I was bullied about my big lips (they are luscious- no lip filler required here) and my thick black hair that has a definite kink (Jewish or African- who knows? Irish maybe? ). I didn't really think about my ethnicity until I grew up and reflected a bit more about it. But I did know that attacking people because of how they looked was wrong.

I find the subcultural of racism on MN unacceptable. The threads this weekend about Meghan Markle are indicative `(people claiming they are not racists they just dont like her- for lots of ridiculous reasons- basically she is an independent black woman )

I believe that we should all challenge deeply embedded racism constantly regardless of our ethnicity. Not just the National Front type stuff which is explicit but the deep societal implicit racism which underpins our society.

So why does no-one ever call it out on MN- why are so many posts with inherent racist views allowed to go unchallenged? Why isnt every post with racist undertones receiving hundreds of reports?

Is it pointless? Is MN like the MET police and institutionally racist ?

(5 years of commuting through elephant and castle- everyday saw MET police pull someone over. ONCE only were they not black- so 1000 approx stops- only 1 white)

Why do you imagine its white women who are posting they don't like MM? Loads of black people don't like her and are happy to say so. And good for us!

This is where l am at too.

Black Mumsnetters Board - Note in point: Black people can’t have anything to themselves without…

I report and call other posters out.
Threads tend to go quiet when I call other posters out.

Unfortunately, it won’t change. Sadly, I’ve realised that I just need to mind my own Black business.

I’m done with the H&M threads. I can’t read them anymore; it’s always the same s*.

MM’s family are clearly toxic, but for some reason she is meant to put up with their BS.

basically she is an independent black woman

Meghan Markle isn't black - she's mixed race.

I'm also mixed race (no black blood, but I have one white parent and one brown parent). Am I allowed to dislike her?

Or are we only allowed to dislike people who are identical in 'race' to us? (whatever 'race' actually means).

If you shout 'racist' at everything, people are less likely to take notice when there are issues of genuine concern.

I am willing to be proven wrong, but what I see as a big problem, both with racism and other -isms, -phobias is that if prosecuted in law a sentence is handed out but no education/ re-education into why the -ism is unacceptable and the perpetrator "indoctrinated" (wrong word) into acceptable speaking. I fully appreciate the costs would be very high. On moderated sites it's far too easy for said moderators to Ban- go, out the door die in the cold, dont come back. No discussion, no link to reeducation. But then as someone said earlier it's all about advert income and clickbait. The owners love it.

In fact I'd say by far the most hostile place on MN is right here on this board where many black women seem to utterly revel in being able to order white women out of their space and sneer at them when they resist or try to understand why they're being called racist.

Ah yes, the old 'black women are aggressive' trope. Please bore off elsewhere, maybe to FWR, their hostility may be more to your speed

@Diverseopinions is saying the "I have black friends " defence may have validity.

I'm white, but I'll have a try at this.

Anyone of colour can be a victim of racism.
The racist can be someone of any background: white or not.
There are fault lines all over the place. So it's not as simple as being on one or other side of a dividing line.
However, being white in a system set up to keep white people in power, you cannot be a victim of racism. It doesn't make sense.

In this system, being white and having a friend or child or role model or favourite celeb of colour isn't like having a "not-racist" certificate.
You can still be racist.
In fact given the structural racism that exists in our world, you have to be pretty vigilant against it.
The first step is, when a person or people of colour try to point out racism don't get out your "not-racist" certificate. Just listen and ask questions until you feel you understand better what you are hearing.

Sorry if this doesn't hit the mark. Doing my best here. Hope it helps.

I get the point and agree with it.
Noticeably on Baby Names and Higher Education threads white names and Unis are preferred.
Whats the answer though? You can’t really stop people on MN recommending Exeter just because it’s really white. You also can’t blame a black student for not choosing it for the same reason.

( MM is a twat though and it’s not down to her having a black mum).

Hidethetoaster.

Thank you for this explanation.

I would say that what you are saying indicates that EXPERIENCE may be, and usually is, impacted by the institutionalised system of racism within which we live. This is obviously true. There are so many factors at play, especially with fleeting and casual interactions.

But if someone is trying hard to articulate an opinion scrupulously fairly, surely they must sometimes be successful? Intention and feeling can overcome any inbred bias - surely? Human beings are not so lacking in agency and insight into themselves as to be completely powerless, especially when you are only talking about or commenting on one singular aspect of a person's behaviour. As a parallel, society is sexist, but surely some employers manage to see past that and be fair?

This, disliking Meghan isn't racist!

I am delighted they have managed to do minimal public events surrounding the jubilee so the British press/public have limited opportunity to slate them.

Sorry but why on earth does disliking Meghan Markle automatically mean you're a racist? This simplistic and patronising view is so unhelpful! So we automatically have to like everyone who isn't white otherwise it's racism?

Agree, it's so annoying, there are lots of celebrities and I have formed an impression on them based on my observations, but that's allowed. In the case of Meghan it's racism. I just don't realise it.

And, I don't hate her, I think she handles things very badly. The oprah interview, the merching, judging her dad for what she did herself.

It's like automatically assuming disliking Amber Heard means you're a misogynist! Fucks sake, can't we see people beyond their most basic attributes? Not everyone is a complete simpleton who can't form opinions on people, and I really resent the fact that women are often reduced to their most immediate attributes rather than being seen as multifaceted, flawed humans.

I thought this thread was on why posters didn't call out racism on MN not on the Duke and Duchess of Sussex?

OP the reason why myself and other posters who are black, brown and yellow don't call out racism on MN threads continually is because there is only so much time you can spend notify mods of racism, misogynoir, islamophobia, etc.

There are also groups - they aren't hard to find - who deliberately join MN to troll using -isms to goad people.

Also on BMN I think it is better to not report racist posts and call the posters out directly. So posters can see what global majority posters deal with in everyday life in the UK.

@Diverseopinions disowning her father

How long have you been on Mumset? Have you visited the Stately Homes threads? If anyone has grounds to disown their father after all the abuse and stalking and harassing her he has done, it's Meghan.

and claiming he didn't fund her education, is a drastic one.

Do you know for a fact that he did or didn't? I think she'd know.

Saying on Oprah that Catherine ought to have made it clear to the press that it was Meghan who was the one upset about the bridesmaid dresses - when the RF are basically not allowed to discuss personal stuff like that with the press.

Oh yes they ARE allowed to discuss it with the press!!! Catherine and William have had statements released denying rumours. The Firm have done it to cover for the Cambridges and other royals. There is absolutely NO reason they couldn't have done it to protect Meghan, especially as she copped the worst abuse out of them all.

Complaining that she is not being asked if she is ok, and hard it is, when she has just visited impoverished teenage girls who are learning self-defence to protect them from rape.

Please stop with the exaggerations and hyperbole. She never 'complained'. She was aske an off the cuff question that truly flawed her in a moment of human frailty, she was touched, and she responded. It was a very touching moment. Imo, it is beyond selfish, evil, cruel and outrageous to hold this moment of human frailty against a woman who was going through so much. You wouldn't last a day in her life, you have absolutely no right whatsoever to judge.

If people are racist, why do they always say how dignified, graceful, beautiful and admirable is Meghan's mother, Doria?

Duh. Because Doria is one of the 'good' non-white people. She shuts up, is quiet, and doesn't make a scene. Racists are fine with people like that. It's the independent, proud, uppity ones who don't know their place, like Meghan, that they have a problem with. If only Meghan was 'seen and not heard' like Doria, they think.

@iCouldSleepForAYear I really, really hate to admit this, but it seems that there was far more to the Central Park Karen than we originally thought, and she was wrongly vilified. I REALLY don't like admitting it, but it's true: bariweiss.substack.com/p/the-real-story-of-the-central-park?s=r

@Alb0
Thanks, excellent summary

Oh God. Now MM 'beaming' is a problem. And people say there isn't irrational hatred against Meghan. If she didn't smile she'd be accused of being a sourly miserable bitch who was trying to get attention. Listen to yourself! You are unhinged. The poor woman simply cannot win for losing! I think most of her haters are petty nasty pieces of work who need to grow up.

Beaming? Fuck me..... I'd laugh if the vendetta and character assassination of her wasn't so serious.

Oh God. Now MM 'beaming' is a problem. And people say there isn't irrational hatred against Meghan. If she didn't smile she'd be accused of being a sourly miserable bitch who was trying to get attention.

It's unreal isn't it?

If KM was 'beaming' people would be saying how lovely and joyful her demeanour is and how delighted she was by the day etc.

As for someone saying people aren't racist against MM because they like her mum... then using passive qualities (plus her looks) as the reasons why. They proved the point others were making. It was an example of "Im not racist because I like black people whose personalities are quiet and meek, who seem compliant, who don't voice opinions and who are happy to stay in the background." So, so telling.

-multiple family fallouts (her dad, 2x siblings, his brother, sil etc)

You've never read the Stately Homes thread, have you? It is extremely common to fall out with most/all of your family if you have to go NC with a relative.

and best friend fallouts.

I've never seen anything other than 'rumour' about that. Regardless, have you never read AIBU? Every 4th thread is about someone falling out with their best friend. MM still has friends she's had since her teens.

There there comes a point where you need to acknowledge your own prejudice and stop looking for petty reasons to find Confirmation Bias. Especially since nothing she has done is nothing that isn't out of the ordinary for the average Mumsnet family.

saying they wanted privacy,

This is a commonly repeated fake news. They NEVER said they wanted privacy. What they said, is they wanted control of their own life narrative and how their truth was told.

preaching to us little people about what we must do about climate change whilst private jetting about

Kate and William, every single environmentalist known to man, including the Attenboroughs don't do that?!?? If absolutists like you had your way, no one would speak out on the important issue of the environment unless they lived in a mud hut with no electricity, no sewer and no communications. You are being spitefully petty and self righteous and you must know it on some level.

photo opportunities galore (whilst wanting privacy)

So like Kate and William, Charles, even the Queen? And again, they never said it was privacy they wanted.

preaching about inequality whilst living in a 14 million dollar mansion amongst the world’s richest

Refer back to the environment issue. Do you think the Attenboroughs live in a cheap house? What about Al Gore? Charles? The Queen? Other celebrity environmentalists?

Oh God. Now MM 'beaming' is a problem. And people say there isn't irrational hatred against Meghan. If she didn't smile she'd be accused of being a sourly miserable bitch who was trying to get attention.

She’s just comes across as very disingenuous, everything is for show or effect. It’s not irrational it’s how she comes across. That’s also not something associated with colour? Although possibly Americans.

@MidnightMeltdown I oscillate between wanting to report your deeply offensive and ignorant post, and trying to educate you.

MM has said she is a black woman. Who are you to tell her who she is? If she has a drop of black blood, she is black. Yes, she's mixed race, but she is a black woman and she, like all us 'mixed race' women, PROUDLY identify as black. You are very ill-informed and have no idea how deeply offensive and racist your post was.

AlbO.

It is patronising to say Doria is quiet and isn't proud. We don't know anything about how she presents her personality in her private life. Anything we can say will be based on superficial observation, but, it is beyond reasonable doubt, that she is remarkably beautiful ( and always has been) and exceptionally elegant - in the superficial sense that we see, and I've not been aware of anyone attempting to detract from these qualities, and trying to diminish this interpretation because they want to drag MM, so they drag her too. Fair point, that gentle quiet people do get a gentler ride, which maybe is why I'm not aware of anything but admiration and joy at seeing Rochelle Humes present and I'm not aware of her being pitted for popularity in the press against Holly Willoughby. I think posters have a strong point in saying that powerful and opinionated women receive an unfair press.

I thought after I had wrote earlier, that it isn't so much that Catherine can't reply, as that I thought it was mean and wounding to personalize the criticism of the Royal institution on to Kate. For everything else, it had been a cloud of vagueness with abstract nouns tossed inside, all implied; all general, but for poor Kate, she got thrown under a bus, and the only family member who was,, in front of the whole world and made to look like a total cow. Meghan gave away personal detail about the gift of flowers in order to suggest that Kate knew she was wrong; Meghan's feelings were hurt! I expect that in the RF, lots of times feelings get hurt ( big deal) , and you have to wear tights for formal events, if you like it or not and even if it's hot and sunny. She must have certainly upset Kate. The message from Meghan was The Queen is good and Prince Philip too ... and they like me and support me, but that other commoner Catherine is a total piece of work who stays popular in the press by engineering things so I look bad. In my opinion, .what a horrid thing of M to do and I hope she regrets doing it.

Ok, so based on life experience, if you see beautiful, strong teenage girls who get raped and injured , it ought to have this mysterious effect on you called empathy, where you, temporarily, sink your own issues in your imagination and just respond and feel. It's also natural and sensible to treat a world broadcaster's camera and microphone a bit like a loaded gun, which you stay away from and treat with care, unless you've really mapped out what you are going to say. And royal duties are work. I don't suppose many nurses or teachers say to a group of patients or students, " These are my feelings and frailties....." You are actually not supposed to do it professionally. But if she can't handle work rules, then maybe best she doesn't do working Royal Duties, and I've no problem with her and Harry leading their family life in US, as long as they are not breaking rules about using their Royal influence wrongly.

No, she doesn't. She comes across as down-to-earth and unassuming. I think she is a fantastic role model for women and young girls. She certainly is a much better person than some of the posters on here! I'd rather her as a role model for my children any day.