White women posting on Black Mumsnetters - all good?

[Sugarintheplum]

Hiya,

I'm just looking for your honest opinion here - feel free to get a new handle to respond to this one if you like (I do that sometimes!)

My view is this: I don't hugely object, partly because it's the internet, and I can't expect that to be truly for a devoted protected space, so it's kinda 'meh'. I just thought about it because of the 'are blonde women more attractive' thread, and there are lots of white women on it.

I've asked something similar before, and I ask it again here, if it's called Black Mumsnetters, why might non-black women want to post? I can see why they might want to lurk and read, but what might make you want to be visible, present and contributing to that space?

If it is a belief that no space should be 'exclusive', i'd think Black Mumsnetters might turn one off completely - ugh, yuk, segregation. If it is a belief that well, one or two white women won't change things (do they? My opinion is that yes, a space with just black women in it talking black women things is materially changed by having white women in it) I can see that too maybe, only things do have a way of being taken over and before you know it black mumsnetters has very few black women at all posting. If it is 'I should be able to be wherever I choose, thank you!', or 'i just love being in chats with diverse groups, I 'm not thinking about it that way' I'd like to know too.

But mostly, black women, how do you feel about it?

Like I say, I'm cool about it, I just don't get it. If there were a Trans Mumsnetters, or Asian Mumsnetters, or LGBT Mumsnetters, or Young Mumsnetters, I wouldn't feel any sort of compulsion to post, I'm black straight and over 30. My children's partner is from a different ethnic group to me and if there were a group for mumsnetters from that community, again, I wouldn't feel any sort of need to post.

Anyway, on this I am truly musing.

Ta!

We frequently get comments saying "egad there are men posting here and this is mumsnet". They usually get short shrift. Providing noone is being offensive and no doubt would be picked up by moderators or reported, then why should people self censor?

Also is a "safe space" really that, or a place where critical thought is forbidden and only Yes women are allowed?

Why do men and non mums want to comment on mumsnet?

I guess it's a free world hey OP?

or a place where critical thought is forbidden*

When it's about racism though, what has "critical thought" got to do with anything? It shouldn't be on here or anywhere.

What if I were to be white but have mixed race children? Should I be allowed to read / comment then?

Should we have a trans women page?

"What if I were to be white but have mixed race children"
With that if, sounds like you're not/don't and just trying to stir?
If not, it's not applicable, is it?
Plus, if you've actually read the thread you'll see it's been answered about 5 million times (ok, slight exaggeration lol, but you get the gist)
RTFT.

Should we have a trans women page?

WTAF has that got to do with this board?

Sorry I was just being obtuse about the trans net thing. I didn't mean it.

Re: mixed race children. It would be nice to feel welcomed as a mother to non-white children. And didn't read whole thread so apologies to all again.

Sorry I was just being obtuse about the trans net thing

It must have come from somewhere though, what was it in relation to?

@HijabiVenus

We frequently get comments saying "egad there are men posting here and this is mumsnet". They usually get short shrift. Providing noone is being offensive and no doubt would be picked up by moderators or reported, then why should people self censor?

Also is a "safe space" really that, or a place where critical thought is forbidden and only Yes women are allowed?

What are you referring to when you say when you ask whether only yes women are allowed? Yes in relation to what and no in relation to what?

What also do you mean by critical thought? What do you have in mind here? Care to give an example of the sort of critical thought you’d like to see presented here and discussed?

Why would a safe space mean critical thought is forbidden?

However, to be told that we're not welcome, as non-black people, is also very much against the spirit of Mumsnet as well as a direct negation of how it was set up in the first place

So?

This space was set up due to constant racism. Patrick who was instrumental in setting it up experienced appalling racism. MNHQ saw that obviously, and then did the right thing.

Your feelings are not '1st' here. Just like ours arent, when racist goady threads are started.

I don't care who's here however. As long as they don't think we have to be educators regarding their DCs hair, racism etc. If you have mixed children yet no-one in real life you can ask about their hair, racism etc then that means you don't make friends with Black women - of which there clearly must be some in your DCs family actually - so I'm not minded to advise on any aspect here. Others possibly would though, and that's fine.

If enough White Women were bothered about racism and challenged racism on here, this board wouldn't exist. It does, because racism was allowed to flourish in I'm not being racist but/Is this cultural appropriation/Should I get rid of my gollywog bullshit dog-whistle threads style. You know, those threads people will often claim they didn't see.

However, to be told that we're not welcome, as non-black people, is also very much against the spirit of Mumsnet as well as a direct negation of how it was set up in the first place

So?

This space was set up due to constant racism. Patrick who was instrumental in setting it up experienced appalling racism. MNHQ saw that obviously, and then did the right thing

I know all of that. I was there, from the very beginning, posting in support of this board, because I, too, was sick and tired of the racism and racist posters on Mumsnet.

Your feelings are not '1st' here. Just like ours aren't, when racist goady threads are started

Indeed, which is why I hesitated before I posted.

What I was trying to say, in support of the BMN board and black MNetters was that I think (perhaps a better word than 'feel'?) it would be a terrible shame if this board was hidden away, which is what some have suggested.

If enough White Women were bothered about racism and challenged racism on here, this board wouldn't exist. It does, because racism was allowed to flourish in I'm not being racist but/Is this cultural appropriation/Should I get rid of my gollywog bullshit dog-whistle threads style. You know, those threads people will often claim they didn't see

Indeed. Totally agree. And you'll find, if you wanted to AS, that I've regularly posted on those threads to argue against the racists.

@PutTheSinkInTheWashingMachine

You're centering yourself with your white saviour cape and whitesplaining (You've said you're white so I'm not assuming).

We've ALL heard your opinion A THOUSAND TIMES. They're wonderful. Take your own advice and take a backseat. Black women can fight their own battles here.

For me, this is a dichotomy.

I read with great interest (but without commenting) earlier threads on which several posters were taken to task for (despite being black) having views which did not accord with the general consensus of a specific thread. The teaching of White Privilege thread was an eye-opener.

It seems that on this board inclusion is actually less about skin colour and more about if your face fits in terms of opinions etc.

The poster referred to in the quote above @Quaagars is apparently white, but would seem to fit in better here than many black posters as she toes the party line.

but would seem to fit in better here than many black posters as she toes the party line
There is no party line in this section. There is no Central Committee meeting in secret organising the overthrow of White Western Capitalism.

Sorry to disappoint.

The only party line I see appearing here, is the repetitive faux whiney whataboutery from a disgruntled handful plopping on this thread with obviously nowt better to do than try and shit stir on a small section of Mumsnet.
I've nothing else to say, I said it all months ago, to the same or similar people, who seem to have an ongoing problem with Mumsnetters who want to talk about things from a Black perspective.

Well I generally don’t comment much on threads I know nothing about so the trans or LGBT or here or whatever. People do need a space to have meaningful conversations. But to say Should non black people comment Is that helpful. If non black people can comment in a helpful way surely that’s fine obviously not fine if The posts are inappropriate. How would you feel if a thread was started saying now black mumsnetters have their Own space then they shouldn’t comment on any other threads. I think it’s a delicate balance comment if you feelyou can contribute don’t if it’s something you can’t ??! And try and gauge the thread in the way you would at a party ?

@EchoCardioGran

but would seem to fit in better here than many black posters as she toes the party line There is no party line in this section. There is no Central Committee meeting in secret organising the overthrow of White Western Capitalism. Sorry to disappoint. The only party line I see appearing here, is the repetitive faux whiney whataboutery from a disgruntled handful plopping on this thread with obviously nowt better to do than try and shit stir on a small section of Mumsnet. I've nothing else to say, I said it all months ago, to the same or similar people, who seem to have an ongoing problem with Mumsnetters who want to talk about things from a Black perspective.

The problem was that the thread about teaching white privilege came about due to the comments of a black women politician. It seemed (to an outsider) that only those who agreed that she was wrong were allowed to post.

The posters who agreed with her and who said they were also black were mocked and had their posts torn apart.

I have no skin in the game here, and I am white, but that was how it came across.

If I was blonde, or a black man, or had a person fitting this description in my family and heard a discussion in which their experience/behaviour was being discussed and critiqued, I might contribute to the discussion. I wouldn't feel compelled and I wouldn't particularly care if it was welcome or not, especially if it was there is in Active Conversations. Of course people will have views and join in. Unless you're on a website solely for a specific group, that is the nature of a chat site.

There used to be a 'Parents with Disabilities' section on MN (before that stopped being something they cared about) and sometimes the parents who commented had disabilities, sometimes they didn't have direct personal experience but wanted to discuss. I would not have expected to criticise parents without disabilities on that board, have it appear in active conversations, and tell others they're not allowed to comment.

If the subject was about something I had nothing to do with and had no relevance to my life, I would be highly unlikely to feel inclined to contribute.

I suppose, regardless of the exclusive sign you have put up above your sandwiches, people you are talking about can still hear you.

@CheltenhamLady that thread only lasted 2/3 pages before it turned south. And from what I saw, people who came on to disagree weren't black, or maybe I missed the ones you are referring to. It all came to blows when a black poster challenged a comment made by a non black poster, and that poster took issue over aggressive emojis.

The poster who started that thread is not black either.

I am responding to your comment, because it's interesting that you saw what you saw, as an 'outsider', when that's not what I saw at all. I did, however, see a thread in the chat section regarding that same speech by Kemi. Most people there agreed with Kemi. So, it's not like alternative views had no space to discuss this.

But I also want to add that 'black' is far reaching and without clear borders. We are not going to agree just because we are the same colour. We need to debate and discuss those differences too.

For now on, it's clear that we need to keep other races peripheral to our discussions, or else we risk not really hearing black opposition voices.

The posters who disagreed were not black including two posters who harassed a black poster for 5 pages for disagreeing with the idea that discussing race was divisive and made it seem as though she was being aggressive for posting inoffensive emojis.

That is a blatant lie.

I agree with @Sugarintheplum black people do not need any help to have a full conversation.

Conversely, this is one of the reasons I have never posted on fwr. I don't feel 'banned' or 'unwelcome' because I'm a man but I feel that it's more respectful to listen and learn in that section.

A lot of fwr posts come up in active and if they're interesting I'll watch but not comment. Some of the threads are specifically about men on mumsnet but I still haven't commented. I would if I had something particularly interesting or unique to say, but unsurprisingly I haven't found anything yet that a woman hasn't been able to manage.

I've had to sit on my hands for a full 24 hours a couple of times though lol.

I tend to read all sorts of threads on mn late a night breastfeeding my child.
Mostly I scroll through the active list first so if something is on there I read it.
I find the bmn topics really interesting to give me a different perspective to how I might see things or not experience. ( there was a great ama about a lady with natural locs and afterwards I googled pictures as I just never knew the thing she explained).

I read the thread last night which was active about black men supporting BLM but dating white women. To me i got from that was the understanding of how black men can treat black women. As a woman I was not happy and my instinct was to have a view and think about how I can support black women. I didn't comment but will admit the comments I saw that said specifically non black women don't comment on this thread made me bristle a bit. As I said I didn't comment but I wasn't there to minimise or offer an alternative view it was a thread I had come across and felt a strong emotion that men were treating women in this way.

I get that there is space for Bmn and what could be called black topics ( I hope that phrase is ok I can't think what to phrase it as but topics about food, hair, body, etc) but I think non black people can also learn a lot and support. We can be clumsy with our language maybe not get things but I for one want to learn to support but feel I am not welcome to discuss any issues black women may have even if it's to help and support.

Completely understood and many thanks, as a black woman I appreciate having allies.

Sometimes people don't want help and support though, they want to get on and do it themselves. Not always, for sure, but sometimes. I'm sure we've all felt like that at times. Look, I don't speak for everyone, but I do support embattled people being able to group together and gain strength from each other, even though there are others out there who are rightly and honourable keen to pitch in. Often if I'm struggling I want time to work it out myself.

A year on and I've just re-read this thread from beginning to the end because I've had some thoughts. I must say looking at it with fresh eyes, it's been massively enlightening and most of my thoughts have been confirmed, answered, assuaged, validated.

Not trying to shit-stir by reopening the thread but it's been much more eye-opening for me than it was a year ago. I'm glad it was posted. Thanks @Sugarintheplum

I do have to say, on second thoughts, I apologise for going in on you @Quaagers I actually forgot I posted on it!