It's illegal to teach about white privilege, apparently

[BIWI]

Anyone see this?

article in today's Guardian

I'm absolutely astounded - not only that this is the equalities minister saying this, but also that she black herself. How can she justify this?

@MagentaRocks pulling out your mixed ethnicity friend means nothing. I could line up my mixed ethnicity family and friends. The ones who experience everyday racism are the ones who society has decided are not white enough.

There as every black person brought up in the UK and even other European countries would tell you it white privilege clearly exists.

There as every black person brought up in the UK and even other European countries would tell you it white privilege clearly exists.

Absolutely. I think this is the problem I have with people saying it's a belief, or an opinion.

The comparison with religion is an interesting one, because that is all about belief - and I can choose not to believe. But with something like privilege (whether white or male) it happens, so it isn't something to choose to believe in.

Why would people deny something that is the lived experience of others?

When mine was 5 (now late teens) I taught we're all the same (yes, I know sadly not always the case but was putting in child friendly terms) as some child at school obviously didn't have such views and taught him a new word angry

Yes! School so often forces our hand. People think that we want to create division by telling our kids that the world can be nasty, but you don't hear the same people chiming in to stop a mother from trying to explain things and instill confidence in her kid for any other reason not related to race.

[quote RedMarauder]@MagentaRocks pulling out your mixed ethnicity friend means nothing. I could line up my mixed ethnicity family and friends. The ones who experience everyday racism are the ones who society has decided are not white enough.

There as every black person brought up in the UK and even other European countries would tell you it white privilege clearly exists.[/quote]
I was merely pointing out that i think it is opinion. And that it is opinion of some people who are not white. If you read my post you would see that I do believe white privilege exists, but that other people don’t. It is opinion and I was showing that different people have different views.

@BIWI

There as every black person brought up in the UK and even other European countries would tell you it white privilege clearly exists.

Absolutely. I think this is the problem I have with people saying it's a belief, or an opinion.

The comparison with religion is an interesting one, because that is all about belief - and I can choose not to believe. But with something like privilege (whether white or male) it happens, so it isn't something to choose to believe in.

Why would people deny something that is the lived experience of others?

My comparison with religion is that different people have different religious views. Different people have different views about white privilege, so although I think white privilege exists i know not everyone agrees based on their experiences.

It would be a mistake to conflate not teaching about white privilege and not teaching about racism.

I think in looking at racism and discrimination you focus on what is wrong and what you want to end. White privilege doesn't exist if there isn't racism same as male privilege doesn't exist if there isn't sexism.

When you talk about privilege as if the privilege is the problem it confuses people as to what is being aimed at - that people should be stripped of being treated properly and be seen badly for it or that everyone should be treated positively. To me racism and discrimination is the problem and the thing that needs to be stopped and that's where the focus needs to be not on. The only concrete 'privilege' is the absence of racism.

Try talking about white privilege in schools and kids will quickly have the same arguments as adults do eg. money, where you live, what your parents are like/do, whether your clever or not, whether you have disabilities etc. White privilege doesn't exist in a vacuum a) it needs racism to exist for it to exist and b) the whole shit show of intersectionality which unleashes a bun fight wherever it rears it's head let alone amongst teenagers who have no choice but to sit together elbow to elbow day in day out.

These are angry smileys????
🤔🤔🙄🙄

Honestly, angry?

@Venicelover I had missed the deleted posts so I can't follow what happened, but I certainly know that the way to piss me off in a flash is to remark on my tone. Regardless of everyone else's problems and everything else happening in the world, as a black woman, tone policing is the microaggression that I have had to deal with the most. It is an aspect of our lived experience that many black women can say they've experience because of our race/skin colour. I used to be scared to show my anger, but I've had to condition myself to believe it's okay to be pissed off and act like it. Tone policing can happen to whoever, in a context regarding whatever, but it's a term that is always going to be mentioned alongside the Angry Black Woman trope. In my life, they ARE allied. It's 'off'to you because you're approaching this debate from a different perspective.

Let it be said that tone policing is also a problem that the black community has within itself. We are so conditioned to think a certain way about each other that black people can also be guilty of unfairly tone policing other black people, concurrently excusing the same behaviours when displayed by other races.

@Dastardlythefriendlymutt

These are angry smileys???? 🤔🤔🙄🙄

Honestly, angry?

Is that it?

🙃

@JayDot500 I simply quoted what Honey Badher said about discussing white privilege in schools being divisive and ended the post with these 4 emojis

🤔🤔🙄🙄

Whixh have been referred to as angry, agitated, looking for a fight etc

If I had put 🤬😡 I can understand but a thinking emoji is "angry". I feel attacked and thoroughly misrepresented because I disagree with the assertion that teaching white privilege is divisive

This is supposed to be a space for black women to feel safe expressing their views- tone be damned. I certainly do not feel it is okay to constantly be told I am looking for a fight based off these four emojis
.
🤔🤔🙄🙄

I will not let it go, because letting it go sets a precedent that is okay and it is not okay. Certainly not in this corner of MN where we specifically stated this is one of the many things we were tired of dealing with.

You didn't quote me. That's a misrepresentation entirely.

What's bizarre is that Dastardly and I got deleted (when I don't think either of us had made a personal attack) and another persons post flagrantly personally attacking me was allowed to stand. Odd moderation on this thread.

@TheHoneyBadger I quoted you in the post that was deleted as you can see it says "deleted for quoting deleted post"

This is the post that made you to label me as angry and looking for fight etc

The emojis that offended you so much are 🤔🤔🙄🙄

To me the situation with dastardly and myself was the same as a million interactions all over the forum. Someone has carefully laid out thoughts and entered a discussion with some degree of vulnerability by sharing stuff, someone else comes on and just has a short jibe dig at them misrepresenting what they were saying and not engaging with what they actually said, first person points out that that's a bit rude.

Only on here for whatever reason a poster felt entitled to attack the first poster and accuse them of horrible things and 'disgusting behaviour' for pointing out someone's rudeness and that post is allowed to stand whilst poster one and two get deleted

No you didn't quote me anymore than I made a personal attack - the mod just had to categorise each as 'something' given neither broke any rules.

@Dastardlythefriendlymutt I've gone back, and I don't see what the big deal was. I totally don't understand why there was a need to remark on the emojis but this is MN where people do rubbish like that when you are on an opposing platform. The way Venice described it, I thought it was worse. Is this not exactly the point about tone policing? The perceived aggression when you dare oppose? You don't actually seem argumentative in your post, or other posts. You were only displaying the blunt thought that many of us (not all, I'm sure) will also think. I'm certainly getting tired of the mental gymnastics regarding a term!

I disagree with your assertion I did not read or engage with what you said. I did, and I do not feel I misrepresented what you said. It all boiled down to we must all have a "kumbayah moment" at the expense of black people for me - and I expressed that.

Only to get posts from you critiquing my tone and use of emojis and calling me rude as you have continued to do in your last post.

I disagreed with you and you went on to tell me I was rude, looming for a fight and antagonistic off the back of 4 emojis.

@TheHoneyBadger

I quoted you and your comment calling me antagonistic and looking for a fight.with the response that I did not realise those emojis were now considered offensive

Here. The only deleted post prior to my post is your post so it follows I was quoting you HoneyBadger

Me too. Especially for an experience that all women suffer endlessly and actually I have experienced on this thread where it is assumed my tone is uppity white woman calling black women angry when actually I was a bit like meh I don't know how to respond to a one line misrepresentation of what I've said over several thought out posts and don't get why instead of engaging with the content someone is being antagonistic and twisting what I said.

How that would call for deleted posts or someone being accused of 'disgusting behaviour' I don't know.

I mistakenly thought that on a thread about education and teaching about racism a teacher who does that might be able to contribute but every word I say has to be policed because I'm white and yet I get accused of tone policing.

Just re-read what I said. Mumsnet even emailed me saying they were deleting because it was an argument that endangered the whole thread going poof. You never quoted me. You completely misrepresented what I was saying but no quote. The mod however had to 'code' the deletion as 'something' so picked personal attack and quoted deleted post because she couldn't pick, 'bit scared and don't know how to handle two women of different ethnic backgrounds disagreeing'. Perhaps they'll add that as an on screen option for them in future.

Oh my goodness we have hit bingo. You are now the victim and are the one whose tone is being policed?;Seriously?

You called me rude more than once and accused me of "not engaging with your posts, because I disagreed.

You called me rude, antagonistic, looking for a fight, have implied I didn't understand or engage with your post because I disagreed with it etc. Wow. Just wow. I'm in the twilight zone.