It's illegal to teach about white privilege, apparently

[BIWI]

Anyone see this?

article in today's Guardian

I'm absolutely astounded - not only that this is the equalities minister saying this, but also that she black herself. How can she justify this?

So no discussion or debate to be had at all then, history or otherwise. Basically it's just "you disagree, shut up, you're a racist"

Is it any wonder most people don't take the theory seriously?

I haven't said I misunderstand or even that I disagree on WP and even if I had, is there something wrong with someone disagreeing or misunderstanding anyway?

I don't come from a privileged background and, like many people, I haven't had the privilege of an extended education. I don't know all the latest academic jargon or what's taught. This is not pretence. I am genuinely confused by it, though still interested

I've tried to understand the theory of white privilege and of CRT. One of the stumbling blocks in my understanding of WP is the lack of historical context there seems to be regarding a working class historical perspective, especially during the 19th century. I have asked questions about this. I'm very interested in the ideas, the theories, around who gained from colonialism and who didn't.

I didn't think it would be taboo to ask about white working class perspective in a topic on white privilege/why political theory - if it even is political - should not be taught as fact

I thought the OP had raised a topic for discussion, not a stream of total agreement and blind adherence to dogma of any dogma, on any side. Maybe I was wrong

@Marriedmumunsunghero

This poster doesn't want to understand anything. It's the faux innocence and questioning to prove you wrong while pretending to just want to understand when there is a clear goal to "misunderstand", "disagree" and spout racist pseudo-intelluctual bullshit we are supposed to be escaping from the main board. It is beyond GOADY

Also known as "Black people explain to me and then listen to me TELL you why you are wrong and my opinion matters/is right over proven historical facts"

I wouldn't bother responding.

I agree with you. I would just ignore Flaxmeadow.

So many bingo points in your response Flax which just proves the point PP was making.

Sneaky suspicion that whatever anyone posts will be self confirming bias for you so let's just fast forward to "Yes, you are absolutely right. Black people collectively agree that you really are the victim and have been hard done by. Happy?"

Also no, this isn't the place to debate black people's lived experiences- we debate our existence and humanity everywhere else on a daily basis- this is a safe space for us to talk about our black experience. It is not here to serve you and your need to be "educated" plenty of avenues to find that if you genuinely want to learn. You can lurk and learn.You wouldn't go to the feminist board and ask the women to debate with you if women should really have the vote, and how incapable women are of a career in STEM because men just have better aptitude for that kind of thing. You know what you are doing and it is deliberately goady. Don't be a dick

@Flaxmeadow

I raised this question to discuss white privilege. Which is a different thing entirely from wealth or class or any other kind of monetary advantage.

If you want to discuss the parlous state of the white working classes in the nineteenth century, why don't you start a thread on the main board?

One of the stumbling blocks in my understanding of WP is the lack of historical context there seems to be regarding a working class historical perspective, especially during the 19th century.

As PP are saying, you are conflating class privilege with WP. What do you think life was like for black slaves and their 'free' descendants in the 19th century? Or black people in colonial Africa? Economic development and growth of Great Britain would have been in a different place if it were purely down to coal mining and the natural resources of Britain alone. Greedy rich people have been screwing the poorer classes since civilisation was a thing, nobody disputes that or seeks to diminish their own experiences. We have an added complexity, our skin colour and heritage.

Coming here to say 'but white people have had it hard too' totally misrepresents what WP means and seeks to invalidate our very separate struggles. If the WP debate is totally shut down or stumbled because it offends/doesn't consider the white working classes, then that'd confirm that WP exists, interestingly. This is what you're essentially doing.

Im genuinely shocked at the comment about this being the black mn's section. I'm white and here to listen and learn, trying to deepen my understanding.

@Nackajory

Im genuinely shocked at the comment about this being the black mn's section. I'm white and here to listen and learn, trying to deepen my understanding.

I'm genuinely amused. It's called black mumsnetters? Why would you be shocked it's a black section? Would you be shocked to find feminists in the feminist section, sporners in Sporner's corner or Scots in Scotsnet?

So many bingo points in your response Flax which just proves the point PP was making.

I was responding to a statement about colonialism and how it relates to white privilege. It was already under discussion by pp but now I'm told it shouldn't be.

Sneaky suspicion that whatever anyone posts will be self confirming bias for you so let's just fast forward to "Yes, you are absolutely right. Black people collectively agree that you really are the victim and have been hard done by. Happy?"

I thought this is a debate. I didn't want people to agree with me. Why would anyone want to debate in an echo chamber. What would be the point of starting a discussion where everyone agrees

Also no, this isn't the place to debate black people's lived experiences- we debate our existence and humanity everywhere else on a daily basis- this is a safe space for us to talk about our black experience.

But black experience in this topic relates to a black woman who seems to disagree with most other black people in the thread. lf I agree with Kemi Bradenoch I am agreeing with a black womans perspective. Not because she is black but because she puts forward a good argument

It is not here to serve you and your need to be "educated" plenty of avenues to find that if you genuinely want to learn. You can lurk and learn.

I can lurk and learn. Thanks for your permission. I will bear that in mind

You wouldn't go to the feminist board and ask the women to debate with you if women should really have the vote, and how incapable women are of a career in STEM because men just have better aptitude for that kind of thing.

No I probably wouldn't, but I might debate how that vote came about and discuss the context of the times

You know what you are doing and it is deliberately goady. Don't be a dick

I'd rather not get into personal attacks and making this about me

Colonialism and history was already being discussed by pp. But now we're told it bears no relationship to the theory of white privilege.

Does WP have any historical context or doesn't it?

As PP are saying, you are conflating class privilege with WP.

I'm using class for context because colonialism was being discussed. The accusation pp made was that white people benefited, gained privilege, from colonialism. I put forward a suggestion that not all white people gained privileges from colonialism.

What do you think life was like for black slaves and their 'free' descendants in the 19th century? Or black people in colonial Africa? Economic development and growth of Great Britain would have been in a different place if it were purely down to coal mining and the natural resources of Britain alone.

This is exactly what I was hoping to discuss.

Greedy rich people have been screwing the poorer classes since civilisation was a thing, nobody disputes that or seeks to diminish their own experiences. We have an added complexity, our skin colour and heritage.

Yes I absolutely agree

Coming here to say 'but white people have had it hard too'

I didn't come here to say that, and I haven't at any point said I disagree with white privilege, but I do believe historical context matters

...totally misrepresents what WP means and seeks to invalidate our very separate struggles.

I'm sorry if it appeared that way. Genuinely.

I can see that maybe my enthusiasm to discuss the period as a whole was maybe insensitive

I did want to discuss slavery in the BWI as well, in relation to the topic, but yes I take your point

If the WP debate is totally shut down or stumbled because it offends/doesn't consider the white working classes, then that'd confirm that WP exists, interestingly. This is what you're essentially doing.

I wasn't offended but I take this point as well.

As I said, I come from a very mixed background (I have both BWI slaves and English industrial labourers in my ancestry) but I think sometimes I have disregarded too much one side for the other in debate

The speech by Kemi Badenoch under discussion

Again this is why white privilege should be taught or at the very least discussed in school. It is a very important world issue that people should be educated about in a fair and balanced way

Agree
Too easy to get biased views on the internet, or ones with an agenda
Should be taught properly, ie balanced

@Flaxmeadow, I also agreed with some of your points but I also was vilified for doing so.

Fairness and balance are characteristics which are definitely missing from this section. That is quite sad IMO.

Black or otherwise, there is only one party line on here. They are right and anyone who disagrees is wrong, and it is not up for debate.

Hi, we just wanted to come onto this thread to say that this highly requested board is a space for Black MNetters to discuss issues and experiences relevant to them, not for debating whether these issues exist. Please do bear this in mind when posting.

[quote Venicelover]@Flaxmeadow, I also agreed with some of your points but I also was vilified for doing so.

Fairness and balance are characteristics which are definitely missing from this section. That is quite sad IMO.

Black or otherwise, there is only one party line on here. They are right and anyone who disagrees is wrong, and it is not up for debate.[/quote]
Vilified how?

You stated that white privilege is not a fact it is an opinion. You are wrong because neither is right.

White privilege is not a fact but it is a truth.

Kemi is intelligent enough to know where her statement would lead. It was technically accurate but intentionally misleading. Very little in this world is actually fact unless it is trivial or tautological. Plus undisputed is a useless adjective when combined with the word fact. All facts are indisputable by definition.

It is a fact that my username on mumsnet is SkedaddIe because that is trivially and tautologically true.

It is a truth that I was born in Ghana, it is a truth that I am African, it is not a fact that I am African because it is unlikely that I am genetically 100% African. And I don't live in Africa. And I have dual British nationality. And what is universally important? Residence or origin? We can go further philosophically to the point that the debate becomes ridiculous. Maybe Ghana shouldn't even be called Ghana because of some soon to be uncovered historical event.

You are getting upset because your opinions are wrong and virtually meritless. You stating whites privilege is an opinion is equivalent to me looking at my Ghanaian passport and questioning but how do we really know I'm Ghanaian?

*Black discrimination is a proven truth.

White privilege is the contrapositive of the above statement.*

I gave two UK examples where being white was not a privilege, it was a neutral position and where (conversely to the norm) being black was a privilege.

This is an important issue and I have been fair and balanced throughout this thread.

Ok, so what would teaching 'white privilege' look like?

How would it be taught? In which curriculum area?

Would it be taught to a set of specifics? If so, who would construct those?

or would it be taught according to the viewpoint of the individual teacher?

Who would police how it was taught?

From what age would it be taught?

Would that teaching allow for debate or dissent?

What would happen if parents (of any colour) objected?

What happens if they voiced views such as the ones the OP opened up for discussion (but which are not really up for discussion because quite simply, she is wrong and that is not to be debated) would they be listened to?

To say it should be taught is very simplistic and the issues in some ways show why it is/would be problematical.

Ok, so what would teaching 'white privilege' look like?

It should be part of the national curriculum and be designed by education experts. I hope that they would start with definitions since it is obviously not well understood.

How would it be taught? In which curriculum area?
*
PHSE/Citizenship
History (elective)*

Would it be taught to a set of specifics? If so, who would construct those?
*
Yes.
Experts.*

or would it be taught according to the viewpoint of the individual teacher?
*
No, since white privilege is not an opinion, it is a truth.*

Who would police how it was taught?
Education is not a crime

From what age would it be taught?*
KS2 (PHSE)
KS3 & KS4 (Citizenship)*

Would that teaching allow for debate or dissent?
*
ALL teaching should allow for debate and dissent.*

What would happen if parents (of any colour) objected?
*
Parents already have the freedom to control what their children learn or not learn. Usually this happens through your choice of school ie state school, academy, free school or even home education. The last two options are not required to follow the national curriculum.*

What happens if they voiced views such as the ones the OP opened up for discussion (but which are not really up for discussion because quite simply, she is wrong and that is not to be debated) would they be listened to?
*
This is an opinion not a real question.*

To say it should be taught is very simplistic and the issues in some ways show why it is/would be problematical.
*
For you maybe, imo this is because you appear to be against educating yourself. Fortunately most children are not so closed minded, this is why (in the absence of revolution) real progress is usually generational.*

Bold failure (app) but I hope it's still legible.

OK, who would you consider to be the 'experts' who will construct the parameters of the teaching of the issue?

All teaching should allow for debate and dissent, therefore, the issue is not as cut and dried as you would wish us to believe. It is subjective.

PHSE has a set of parameters which fit the NC, this issue does not fall within them as it stands.

Parents are allowed to discuss the way ideas are presented by schools and also to have input on issues which may be considered 'contentious' which, given what Kemi Badenoch feels and articulates, would appear to cover this issue.

So, my question was just that, not an opinion. Parents will question.

I am educated on this issue, as is KB, our opinions differ from yours. That does not make us wrong.

This sums up my view and hers:

Black people who think like her, she says, tend not to be invited onto television. ‘There is a left-wing view of racial politics that’s assumed to be the black view of politics. Being black is not just about being a minority. On a global scale we are not a minority — but the rhetoric in this country is talking about us as if we are almost a separate sub-species.’

A Tory equalities agenda, she says, should be based on Martin Luther King’s ‘dream’ — that people should be judged ‘on the content of their character’ and not the colour of their skin. ‘Now, it’s all about the colour of your skin. That cannot be,’ she says emphatically. ‘You can’t pick and choose the rules depending on the colour of someone’s skin. That is what the racists do.’

All teaching should allow for debate and dissent, therefore, the issue is not as cut and dried as you would wish us to believe. It is subjective.

It is possible to debate and dissent whether 1+1= 2 That does not make that simple sum subjective.

White privilege is not subjective and asking
spurious questions will not make it as subjective as you would wish us to believe.

The actual 'dream' quote: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

Which somehow got the Tory fairy dust treatment: "... people should be judged ‘on the content of their character’ and not the colour of their skin. ‘Now, it’s all about the colour of your skin. That cannot be,’ she says emphatically. ‘You can’t pick and choose the rules depending on the colour of someone’s skin. That is what the racists do.’ "

She even managed to direct that last part away from racists, so that her MLK inspired lens faced us liberal black folk who are perhaps too demanding in 2020 Britain. We need to calm down and get off people's backs. Oh, and we're annoyingly hogging up all the black-allocated airtime too. Allllll those black people in those top TV/News/media executive jobs need do a better job at portraying us as more than a minority. They definitely need to do better than Sainsbury's, look at all those complaints and threats

Kemi has a dream too.

As a black woman growing up in a very run down working class area I believe that the term ‘privilege’ itself will be problematic and inflammatory in certain communities. Unfortunately teaching, the media, politics, arts are dominated by middle class voices and there are certain communities that are extremely difficult to reach and form connections with as they are largely absent from discussions anywhere. I think much more needs to be done in terms of understanding ‘what works’ instead of ‘what should work’. It still feels like there are too many people telling others how they should think and why they should think it without any understanding of how other people reach their view points.
I do think it should be taught in schools but there needs to be much more understanding of who we are trying to teach and how to teach them. A one size fits all approach continues to alienate vast swathes of people and the language and approach should be adjusted.

@BIWI

This is what she said:

Schools which teach pupils that “white privilege” is an uncontested fact are breaking the law, the women and equalities minister has said.

Addressing MPs during a Commons debate on Black History Month, Kemi Badenoch said the government does not want children being taught about “white privilege and their inherited racial guilt”

Any school which teaches these elements of political race theory as fact, or which promotes partisan political views such as defunding the police without offering a balanced treatment of opposing views, is breaking the law,” she said

I'm at this.

Pinning to read through the thread later.