It's illegal to teach about white privilege, apparently

[BIWI]

Anyone see this?

article in today's Guardian

I'm absolutely astounded - not only that this is the equalities minister saying this, but also that she black herself. How can she justify this?

Good. It shouldn't be taught as fact. Its a theory and just like other theories, it needs to be taught as such.

It's hardly tone policing to say someone is rude and antagonistic when it's pointed out that someone seems to want a fight rather than a discussion.

@Dastardlythefriendlymutt

Why is discussing a problem as it is divisive?

It is divisive because it reduces the issue to skin colour and fails to address the nuances which lie within the lazy catch-all comment. Educational outcomes do not bolster this theory being taught as fact.

It's hardly tone policing to say someone is rude and antagonistic when it's pointed out that someone seems to want a fight rather than a discussion.

That is the very definition of tone policing @TheHoneyBadger. Dastardly's comment was tame compared to most comments on MN. I have seen similar emojis used dozens if not hundreds of times and never has a poster been called "rude", "antagonistic" or "looking for a fight".

All coincidentally comments that allude to the angry black women trope and make any response from her seem more aggressive than it is, thereby effectively silencing her because she cannot win.

You did not address the contents of her comment but rather her tone.

This is exactly why this corner was created so black MNers wouldn't have to deal with tone policing, denial, gaslighting and could have a supportive space to talk about the issues that affect them. Your harassment of Dastardly is not in good faith of premise of this section.

I think you owe her an apology and should really think twice before coming to centre a discussion on race around white people's feelings and not making them uncomfortable, and then having the audacity to tell them how to express their disagreement with you. I would go as far to say it is disgusting behaviour on your part.

Harassment is ridiculous hypbole! If anyone needs to apologise it is you for accusing me of being racist and silencing black women and of harassment. Nor if you read this thread was I on here making it about white people's feelings!

It was a thread about schools and I commented from my experience in schools.

never has a poster been called "rude", "antagonistic" or "looking for a fight

Hi all, we've deleted a couple of posts on this thread. If we're to keep this discussion, please be sure to stick within the Talk guidelines.
Many thanks,
MNHQ

[edited by MNHQ]

I think it is important not to lose sight of the conversation. I do believe that white privilege exist, but I have also seen on Mn lots of posters up in arms about the subject. I do not see this being taught in school anyway, any time soon. I am glad to hear that children are learning about racism and are able to discuss it in class. I am glad that there are good teacher's who are not black who take the time to listen to their non white student's about things that will only affect them.

I think a lot of teachers are anxious about tackling racism in class. They are able to ‘punish’. ‘Report’ and ‘discipline’ racist actions but struggle to challenge prejudice.

There’s a parallel thread to this about the same subject of teaching white privileged and some of the teachers replies are worrying

@OverTheRainbow88 I saw it too. Honestly, it was disheartening to read after a few pages.

I hate discussing white privilege. We (the black community who frequent these topics across SM) found a term that helped us to make sense of a lot of our lived experiences. But, it's apparently a 'lazy' and offensive term to others. We spend far too much time debating the actual term- something people agreed with on the other thread. But what's the alternative? Someone on that thread suggested 'white advantage'- that's where I laughed and stopped reading.

Whatever the alternative term or more encompassing theory is, it needs to address the lived experience of many black people. The microagressions, the tone policing, the systemic bias, the tropes and stereotypes, the whole BAME thing, etc. They all still need addressing independently and from a diverse black perspective.

If I'm honest, I have reservations about this topic being swept under an all-inclusive umbrella. My fear is that we would lose control of our voice, and the wider audience won't hear us. If that happened, we'll revert to talking among ourselves, as we have done for decades and centuries. Or does it feel like that is already happening?

Male privilege isn’t taught in schools so why should white privilege? Why tell another that they have less advantage because of the colour of their skin? Why should anyone be taught they’re inferior or superior because of the body they was born in and as a black person why on earth would you want to spread that message? 🤯

@lotsatoast I was definitely taught about "male privilege" but not using that particular term in both my primary and secondary schools. The term "privilege" wasn't actually used because while the concept existed the actual term was only starting to be used at universities at the time I was at school.

Oh and black and brown kids who see and experience racism understand the concept of white privilege even if they don't know the term.

@OverTheRainbow88 everything you said is spot on. The all-inclusive agenda to make it palatable to people will just result in absolutely no change an.

It's laughable people think teaching black children about white privilege is teaching them they are inferior. They already know they are different and have internalized and navigated microaggressions, tone policing, systemic bias, and stereotypes and tropes. This just actually puts a name on what they have experienced and reassures them they are not indeed overthinking it or being too sensitive. They already have the lived experience. It is a luxury to be able to learn about racism and not experience it

@lotsatoast I'm unsure if you're aware of how out of touch you sound.

Why tell another that they have less advantage because of the colour of their skin?

It's widely known that mothers talk to their daughters about pushing through systems designed to obstruct/stymie them. Basic stuff. Black people do not have conversations where we bring out the kleenex and have a 'woe is us' pity party. We are preparing our kids for what the world can be like for them. Sometimes, our hands are forced earlier than we would have liked, so we have to have these conversations for our kids to make sense of things.

[quote JayDot500]@OverTheRainbow88 I saw it too. Honestly, it was disheartening to read after a few pages.

I hate discussing white privilege. We (the black community who frequent these topics across SM) found a term that helped us to make sense of a lot of our lived experiences. But, it's apparently a 'lazy' and offensive term to others. We spend far too much time debating the actual term- something people agreed with on the other thread. But what's the alternative? Someone on that thread suggested 'white advantage'- that's where I laughed and stopped reading.

Whatever the alternative term or more encompassing theory is, it needs to address the lived experience of many black people. The microagressions, the tone policing, the systemic bias, the tropes and stereotypes, the whole BAME thing, etc. They all still need addressing independently and from a diverse black perspective.

If I'm honest, I have reservations about this topic being swept under an all-inclusive umbrella. My fear is that we would lose control of our voice, and the wider audience won't hear us. If that happened, we'll revert to talking among ourselves, as we have done for decades and centuries. Or does it feel like that is already happening?[/quote]
If I'm honest, I have reservations about this topic being swept under an all-inclusive umbrella. My fear is that we would lose control of our voice, and the wider audience won't hear us. If that happened, we'll revert to talking among ourselves, as we have done for decades and centuries. Or does it feel like that is already happening?

I feel that was why many people of colour were ambivalent about this section being set up.

With regard to 'tone policing,' surely another name for that is 'ensuring politeness? I have seen many a post across MN being commented on for tone or lack of politeness, why would I/anyone want/expect it to happen less on this board?

onezero.medium.com/how-to-stop-racist-tone-policing-online-126fd9932fb4 -if you genuinely want to know the problem with tone policing.

Tone policing is inherently racist and is one of the reasons this section was set up. It's the disingenuous arguments of "I would agree with what you are saying but the way you are saying it is wrong so I don't have to listen or consider your opinion". Or when black people protest against racism and are told consistently "no, not like that" Men do it to women and insist they be nice, polite or smile more.

Tone policing

With regard to 'tone policing,' surely another name for that is 'ensuring politeness? I have seen many a post across MN being commented on for tone or lack of politeness, why would I/anyone want/expect it to happen less on this board?

It's definitely more than that. Ensuring politeness is one thing, but this is not what we mean. As Dasterdly has posted, it's about others wanting to control/police a debate by taking issue with words used, perceived emotions on display, etc.

Black people have always suffered from appearing aggressive. Colin Kapaernick. He bent on one knee in protest against systemic racism and police brutality during the US anthem. The reaction was as if he'd ripped the US flag and set it on fire. Absolutely ignoring the reasons behind his protest. Years later, George Floyd died and peaceful protests happened alongside rioting. While normal decent people could understand the protests, even the anger, 'people should protest more peacefully', were the mutterings of many who didn't want to engage with the actual debate. People who needed to listen the most were more concerned with debating a more acceptable mode of protest for issues that didn't affect them. It's dismissive and hugely frustrating!

I suspect this area is meant to be a safe haven for discussion minus all of the above, but it's still early days.

So are you saying 'tone policing' is unique to posters of colour? That it doesn't happen on other threads where no one states their ethnicity upfront or that it doesn't happen to white people? I am genuinely interested to read your response here.

I am familiar with that meme and others like it and also a lot of feminist commentary on the issue, but whilst it is depicted as focussing on the emotion behind the message rather than the message itself, I believe that the two are often inextricably linked. For me, in most cases, it still comes down to politeness or otherwise.

Politeness? I don't understand why that's even being mentioned here and in this context. Care to explain?

Tone policing happens to black people. If our skin colour is a contributing factor. = racism. This is a fact. It happens. It exists. I've experienced it. I've observed it. Not only regarding black people but mostly so. Perhaps because I am more sensitive to what it can look like for black people, I see it more.

The wonderful thing about an anonymous online forum is the (ahem) privilege of skin colour being, pretty much, a redundant feature of ones online presence... until the topic of culture, racism etc is the discussion point. This being one of those points.

Just to be explicit, tone policing does not only happen to black people.

I don't think white privilege can be taught as fact. I believe it is opinion/theories. As a white female I do believe white privilege exists. I have certainly had problems in my life but being treated differently because of my skin colour isn't one of them. I have a friend who is mixed race. She doesn't believe white privilege exists. I have both black and white friends who do think it exists and I have white friends who don't.

I don't think there is anything factual that you can use to definitively say it exists - even though I think it does. It doesn't mean you can't teach at school different beliefs people have like you do with religion.

I've had a couple of glasses of wine so apologies if I don't make much sense, just thinking out loud!
How can anyone say that white privilege is an opinion?!
Surely it's a fact?
I mean, if all this "racism" talk" gets too much (for want of a better word) I can just switch my laptop/social media off and go for a walk.
Content in the fact I can just switch off! Not have it as my lived experience, just for being me.
What's so wrong with telling your kids about white privilege if you're white? (Not in a horrible way)
When mine was 5 (now late teens) I taught we're all the same (yes, I know sadly not always the case but was putting in child friendly terms) as some child at school obviously didn't have such views and taught him a new word
They need to know racism isn't acceptable.

It doesn't mean you can't teach at school different beliefs people have like you do with religion
It's not a belief, though.
How is it a belief? It literally happens.

Can I ask as my DCs aren’t in school in the UK right now. How do Christian schools teach Christianity - as a fact or a theory?

There’s far more evidence of white privilege - and I say this as a Christian.

Just to add on to my post - I think BLM has been great for raising awareness too.
Back when my eldest and now late teen was 5 (as in my previous post) I taught we're all the same.
Now my just turned teen at 13 is seeing it all discussed in much more detail due to social media, and BGT fan.
Perfect opportunity to sit down and talk with them

Religions are taught as other peoples facts. I am not a Buddhist for example, but in schools it's not taught as an opinion. It's taught as someone else's belief, way of life and a fact for them so should be respected as such. To me it could be their opinion but it's more than that to them so it's not my opinion, it's respected as someone else's life. Same as white privilege should be really. Just because one person isn't affected or doesn't see it, doesn't mean it's not real or is a big issue. You can't dismiss anything just because it's not your own 'truth'