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It's illegal to teach about white privilege, apparently

198 replies

BIWI · 21/10/2020 14:27

Anyone see this?

article in today's Guardian

I'm absolutely astounded - not only that this is the equalities minister saying this, but also that she black herself. How can she justify this?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
JayDot500 · 28/10/2020 09:20

@redmarauder your nephew is right. I have a very public facing job. I remember one white English woman trying to lecture a Nigerian woman, accusing her of contributing to the death of Orangutans because she was sharing a recipe that involved palm oil (not to encourage people to cook it, but just to explain how much preparation goes into some dishes). So apparently, palm oil in her stew was contributing to the death of Orangutans. The debate got very heated, despite my attempts to mediate. Both were as charged up as each other. The Nigerian woman reassured the other that, growing up, no orangutans lived on her father's compound or farm, and it's not her business as to why palm oil is in crisps, ice cream and bread Grin The current rate of deforestation is not because some cultures have for centuries, millennia even, used palm oil in their food and cooking.

JayDot500 · 28/10/2020 09:20

@Dastardlythefriendlymutt glad it's not as bad as first seemed, but I wish your friend well!

Venicelover · 28/10/2020 10:47

@Harriedharriet

In terms of teaching about White Privilege (as a fact or theory) - I think it could be interesting to have a look at how Germany managed after WW11. Not the immediate aftermath but the 50s, 60s, 70 s and on. There must have been HUGE questions to be grappled with regarding who and what people were, did or did not do at the time. I imagine many a child asking many a parent/granparent difficult questions. They must have come up with ways of teaching it while maintaining some sense of society. Does any one know? They have also been very consistent about atoning to the Jewish population world wide. I don't think there has been a comprable recognition by Britan or America to Black people regarding slavery and racisim. I think there could be a lot to learn from the Germans. By the way - I have no experience of Germany in anyway, am just thinking aloud as they say. Am not sure how to express my thoughts - can anyone help me out?
I think part of the problem with that might be that for Germany the atrocities were recent and within sight of the generation growing up. The people who committed the crimes were very recent ancestors, and they felt the very real stigma of the world for what had happened, with slave trading and colonialism that is not the case.

Those issues are very far removed from the youth of today and frankly, many of them feel they should not have to atone, apologise or feel guilt for something that happened generations ago. It is not their fault.

Teaching history, including black history, is the way forward. If done correctly, the students can see where the wrongs lie, but from the perspective of an engaged observer who abhors such inequality and will then strive to use their influence to effect change.

This is a much more effective way to do it rather than ramming guilt and contrition down their throats using the very divisive white privilege tagline.

I imagine that is the perspective of the Minister mentioned in the OP.

goldenharvest · 28/10/2020 11:01

The problem with teaching is that it's easy to put one side of the argument to children who are more impressionable than adults. It's important however to discuss the situation and debate just how white privilege has impacted all lives.

lovelymarie · 28/10/2020 12:32

Sorry Dastardly. I hope your friend will be okayFlowers

I imagine your post would have come earlier if it wasn't for those posters repeatedly calling you names and rude for your use of emojis, or simply you misunderstood their post because you disagreed.Then to continue to insist they were the real victims is mind boggling and further hits home the point that people should learn to listen especially in this corner.

Asking seemingly innocent questions about existing prejudices only then to put them down because that's not what you think is gaslighting. Pretending you are the victim when people call out your bad behaviour is an attempt to silence people and not welcome.

I agree with your post. There is no guilt in learning about white privilege. People who rush to saying you are asking for atonement and contrition from innocent children are not being honest & speaking from their own discomfort that has not allowed them to actually engage with what POC are saying. It is a way to shut down any discussion and change because "it's not my fault" and therefore I will support and continue to benefit from the systemic racism in society because it is not their place or responsibility to change it.

Equality feels like oppression when you have been the beneficiary.

RedMarauder · 28/10/2020 13:38

World War II in Europe ended in 1945.

India gained independence from Britain in 1947.

Ghana gained independence from Britain in 1957.

St Kitts and Nevis, and Anguilla gained independence from Britain in 1983.

I wish people would check their dates before posting.

Blueberries0112 · 28/10/2020 13:39

Before you decide American and British are two separate issues, just remember Before we (U.S.) became a country of our own, the killing of Native American was England's doing. They also brought slaves from Africa in Jamestown too

Venicelover · 28/10/2020 15:21

Quite true, and of course there were slaves taken from England too.

www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofEngland/Barbary-Pirates-English-Slaves/

Dastardlythefriendlymutt · 28/10/2020 15:54

Zimbabwe 1980
Zambia 1964
Vanatu 1980
Malawi 1964
Seychelles 1979

These are recent events. If you were born in 1980 you are a millennial. There are countries that old that have gained independence from the UK that recently. It does not take 40 years to undo 160 - 200 years of damage.

Venicelover · 28/10/2020 15:57

@Dastardlythefriendlymutt

Zimbabwe 1980 Zambia 1964 Vanatu 1980 Malawi 1964 Seychelles 1979

These are recent events. If you were born in 1980 you are a millennial. There are countries that old that have gained independence from the UK that recently. It does not take 40 years to undo 160 - 200 years of damage.

I am unclear what your point is?
Venicelover · 28/10/2020 16:47

@lovelymarie

Sorry Dastardly. I hope your friend will be okayFlowers

I imagine your post would have come earlier if it wasn't for those posters repeatedly calling you names and rude for your use of emojis, or simply you misunderstood their post because you disagreed.Then to continue to insist they were the real victims is mind boggling and further hits home the point that people should learn to listen especially in this corner.

Asking seemingly innocent questions about existing prejudices only then to put them down because that's not what you think is gaslighting. Pretending you are the victim when people call out your bad behaviour is an attempt to silence people and not welcome.

I agree with your post. There is no guilt in learning about white privilege. People who rush to saying you are asking for atonement and contrition from innocent children are not being honest & speaking from their own discomfort that has not allowed them to actually engage with what POC are saying. It is a way to shut down any discussion and change because "it's not my fault" and therefore I will support and continue to benefit from the systemic racism in society because it is not their place or responsibility to change it.

Equality feels like oppression when you have been the beneficiary.

The issue had been moved past but as you decided to bring it up again....

What if other people of colour disagree with your posts and the posts of others on this subject?

Are they allowed an opinion?

The Minister in the OP is a case in point. Is she not entitled to discharge her office as she sees fit?

You have no idea of my ethnicity for example (or that of any other poster) unless they choose to disclose it, and why should we have to do that?

If we post here we are allowed an opinion without being told we are tone policing or gaslighting.

Or don't you agree?

Quaagars · 28/10/2020 17:47

Oh, FFS

lovelymarie · 28/10/2020 18:59
Biscuit
Caeruleanblue · 28/10/2020 19:21

Before we (U.S.) became a country of our own, the killing of Native American was England's doing.
I thought first immigrants to the US were from all over. All over Europe that is. In fact I would suspect relatively few were English, as a proportion.

maggiethecat · 28/10/2020 23:51

I really don't believe that we can speak about a more equal society without speaking about the legacy of slavery and colonialism and disadvantages suffered by black people and the corollary advantage afforded white people.

It's not comfortable talk but it's necessary so that those who are blissfully unaware of the disparities can have their eyes opened and those who try to dismiss or minimise it can be challenged on it.

In the strange world of 2020 and the global outpouring from black people I imagine that there are many white people who for the first time became aware of many of the issues that black people must navigate which white people simply don't.

Labels may be lazy but arguing over them is a distraction. Awareness of this distinction/advantage/privilege... whatever we call it, must be maintained if we do hope for change.

Quaagars · 29/10/2020 00:11

It's not comfortable talk but it's necessary so that those who are blissfully unaware of the disparities can have their eyes opened and those who try to dismiss or minimise it can be challenged on it

Exactly, totally agree

turnitonagain · 29/10/2020 00:20

I thought first immigrants to the US were from all over. All over Europe that is. In fact I would suspect relatively few were English, as a proportion.

“By 1776, about 85% of the white population in the British colonies was of English, Irish, Scottish, or Welsh descent, with 9% of German origin and 4% Dutch.”

courses.lumenlearning.com/boundless-ushistory/chapter/the-growth-of-the-colonies/

Flaxmeadow · 15/11/2020 03:00

I think the Britain's role in this slave trade and the truth of colonialism (how many countries etc., the extent of financial gain from stolen, yes stolen raw materials and minerals, how these ill-gotten gains enriched this country and just how recent independence was gained for some of these countries) is necessary to explain why society is built to inherently favour white people and that racism is systemic. I think white privilege should be taught because it helps black students and those of colour to out a name to the things they know they experience and not to have them minimised and dismissed as non-valid

I'm really interested in this. From the perspective of both the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade/slavery in the BWI, in comparison with the labouring class during Industrialisation in the UK but I'm not sure how this relates to the theory of WP.

(FTR I haven't made my mind up about WP, I'm still, after many years unfortunately, researching the theory)

You say that colonialism was "financial gain from stolen raw materials and minerals"

Which raw materials and minerals are these, and is this more recently in Africa or during the period of slavery in the BWI?

The mineral coal was the fuel that powered industrialisation and so created most of the wealth. But this was produced here in the UK, by a mostly English labour force, millions of men, women and children who owned nothing. This was THE mineral, the oil of its day if you like. Is this still taught in relation to colonialism?

I think teaching white privilege doesn't make white students feel guilty because they know that they have an advantage over someone else of a different colour in their exact circumstances. That is not their fault but it's an indictment on society not them. That they can use their privilege to call out behaviour that is not okay in a way that helps them dismantle the systems in place so we are not all passive but actively working towards equality and equity. It doesn't have to be some guilt ridden message like so many posters are saying. It means for once we will have a generation who is not just folding their hands and saying "I'm powerless against the system" while doing nothing to change it because it benefits them. And maybe it will teach all children empathy and to listen to each other. Pretending it doesn't exist to make the conversation palatable to white people and ease some sort of guilt they think black people are trying to put on them because of their "ancestors actions" is misguided and does nothing to change the status quo. Keeping quiet just pays lip service to change without doing anything and then people are surprised when massive protests erupt.

How would you explain white privilege to white students regarding the report in the papers today. That the London university SOAS, that prides itself on being inclusive, in 2017 did not admit one single white working class student into it's building. Or to the white female victims of organised crime gangs in the north of England (not sure if it's allowed on MN to go into too much detail on that. Hopefully my comment won't be removed?).

Im not bringing this up because I'm fragile or some other such thing, I'm from a very mixed background anyway, but i know thats an irrelevance. I'm saying this because I think it's what the students themselves would bring up in a "white privilege" lecture on colonialism.

I know it used to be, but is colionialism still taught within the context of industrialisation?

SkedaddIe · 15/11/2020 18:53

@Flaxmeadow

A very short answer to your long post is that class privilege and white privilege are not mutually exclusive.

The long answer is

If you have the intelligence to pull together the examples you raised and not understand this important fundamental truth then I propose that you never will. And any further conversation with you is a waste of time.

But if you do actually care to educate yourself I'll give you another example from your perspective.

Morecambe has a poor working class white community made up of English people, Irish travellers and Polish immigrants. This is juxtaposed with an affluent international academic community from Lancaster University which is top 10 UK and among the top universities in the world. It is one of the places in the UK where the black experience doesn't correlate with the poverty experience.

Stockton and Durham university is another example.

I have personally experienced both environments and I don't see it as white privilege not existing... I understand that these are one of the many exceptions where my affluence shields me from discrimination. But they are not the rule. I was always a short journey away from a major city where my black face would give and has given me a rather different experience.

White privilege is real and should be taught because I'd rather it was taught within the education system, in a trusted balanced environment by professionals. The alternative is learning about it on social media. And if you'll excuse me the personal attack, you are a good example of the well-worded prejudice nonsense on social media.

JayDot500 · 15/11/2020 19:36

Which raw materials and minerals are these, and is this more recently in Africa or during the period of slavery in the BWI?

Some answers to this question can be found here:
www.theguardian.com/politics/2005/aug/20/past.hearafrica05

Before you write it off as a mere opinion piece, the writer is Dr Richard Drayton and he wrote this in 2005. He's now at KCL but was ...'a senior lecturer in imperial and extra-European history since 1500 at Cambridge University.' at the time of writing

For those who don't want to click:

Profits from slave trading and from sugar, coffee, cotton and tobacco are only a small part of the story. What mattered was how the pull and push from these industries transformed western Europe's economies. English banking, insurance, shipbuilding, wool and cotton manufacture, copper and iron smelting, and the cities of Bristol, Liverpool and Glasgow, multiplied in response to the direct and indirect stimulus of the slave plantations.

...

In The Great Divergence, Kenneth Pomeranz asked why Europe, rather than China, made the breakthrough first into a modern industrial economy. To his two answers - abundant coal and New World colonies - he should have added access to west Africa. For the colonial Americas were more Africa's creation than Europe's: before 1800, far more Africans than Europeans crossed the Atlantic. New World slaves were vital too, strangely enough, for European trade in the east. For merchants needed precious metals to buy Asian luxuries, returning home with profits in the form of textiles; only through exchanging these cloths in Africa for slaves to be sold in the New World could Europe obtain new gold and silver to keep the system moving. East Indian companies led ultimately to Europe's domination of Asia and its 19th-century humiliation of China.

Africa not only underpinned Europe's earlier development. Its palm oil, petroleum, copper, chromium, platinum and in particular gold were and are crucial to the later world economy. Only South America, at the zenith of its silver mines, outranks Africa's contribution to the growth of the global bullion supply.

...

It is remarkable that none of those in Britain who talk about African dictatorship and kleptocracy seem aware that Idi Amin came to power in Uganda through British covert action, and that Nigeria's generals were supported and manipulated from 1960 onwards in support of Britain's oil interests.

...

African slavery and colonialism are not ancient or foreign history; the world they made is around us in Britain. It is not merely in economic terms that Africa underpins a modern experience of (white) British privilege. Had Africa's signature not been visible on the body of the Brazilian Jean Charles de Menezes, would he have been gunned down on a tube at Stockwell? The slight kink of the hair, his pale beige skin, broadcast something misread by police as foreign danger.

Flaxmeadow · 15/11/2020 21:07

SkedaddIe
You're right. I'm not interested in trading personal insults, with anyone

JayDot500
Thanks for the link. Interesting perspective. Yes Bristol, Liverpool, Edinburgh etc did prosper from these resources. Although coffee, sugar were luxury goods only a few could afford. Wool, flax, copper, iron ore, clay etc. and crucially coal, were home produced.

That the very few slave traders, merchants, plantation owners accumulated great wealth I have no doubt. That some banks did the same, and so in turn an elite, and so government too, yes. Although boom/bust economies and wars would so often drain those coffers time and time again.

I'm interested though in the everyday people of the UK. In their condition. The ancestors of the UK people we see today, the ones who are accused of
Having white privilege/their ancestors having white privilege
Profiting in some way from colonialism

The vast majority of people in the 19th century were labourers. One hundred years ago, over 85% of the UK population were working class. They owned nothing

In what way did/does the UK working class benefit from colonialism? In what way did their ancestors?

SkedaddIe · 15/11/2020 21:51

@Flaxmeadow

None of my comment was an insult.

I spent time articulating myself to ensure that was clear.

If that is your twisted focus than one of two things is clear. Either you don't want to understand white privilege. Or you do actually understand it but are pretending not to understand it to mask your racist intent.

Either way the outcome is the same, your comments only serve to tear down and diminish black peoples' very real lived experiences of white privilege by conflating it with class privilege.

That is a problem.

SkedaddIe · 15/11/2020 21:56

Again this is why white privilege should be taught or at the very least discussed in school. It is a very important world issue that people should be educated about in a fair and balanced way.

Especially given how complicated the intersections of class sex and race privilege are.

Marriedmumunsunghero · 16/11/2020 01:02

This poster doesn't want to understand anything. It's the faux innocence and questioning to prove you wrong while pretending to just want to understand when there is a clear goal to "misunderstand", "disagree" and spout racist pseudo-intelluctual bullshit we are supposed to be escaping from the main board. It is beyond GOADY

Also known as "Black people explain to me and then listen to me TELL you why you are wrong and my opinion matters/is right over proven historical facts"

I wouldn't bother responding.