For not wanting a sliver of pain during childbirth (support for stillbirth)

[karmathreefold]

and then wanting extreme agony as punishment?

It's my fault... I knew the baby wasn't as active as usual, yet I thought it was OK.

I had a friend who had a stillbirth & she told me to check out any reduced movements - which I did, for my son, DD & in this pregnancy.

But I fucking didn't on tuesday, and I waited till the evening, when I knew it should be more active till I went to hospital.

So now I have to give birth to it. It's fully formed at 37 weeks gestation. If I'd got to hospital on time it could have maybe been saved.

I don't want to feel pain giving birth; yet I feel I deserve it, why not after it's all my fault.

I've never felt such pain as I do no, so maybe even a drugs-free labour would be less painful.

Oh god, I don't want this pain, I can't stand it

Thanks shabba. Luckily I've only had a very few people talk to me, and only the crisis team on duty psychiatrist has said something really upsetting - which was "better it happen now, as she would have had something wrong with her & be in pain" err??? She was, by all counts, perfect. Her scan, the blood tests, and other tests (due to my age) were all fine. Of course she may have had something undectable, but as we opted out of a PM we'll never know. The group B strep, and true knot in cord, are more likely suspects, but I've my appointment on 6th December, to discuss with consultant.

I was talking to DH last night, about the horde of nappies we have in the bedroom. He's suggested giving them to the charity he volunteers for, so that they can give them to local young parents who are struggling... this made me so mad, the idea that someone's got a newborn, but has no means of supporting them, seemed so unfair (and I was a single mum on benefits when my son was born, and still afforded nappies for him).

DH had a go at me, saying what a horrible person I am... we then watched Eastenders and te storyline about Billy's grandaughter being pregnant came up. I said why should I donate nappies to her, and he got more angry, saying that he really doesn't like my personality.

I don't know why I've turned so evil & nasty, as I never used to be like this - I used to apologise if someone looking the other way bumped into me... yet I'm so angry at others at the moment. I guess I'm angry that some people use these charities as they spend their money on other things (and we do know a couple who always scrounge freebies, then go out drinking & can afford to smoke). Gosh, I really am nasty now.

Also on Facebook a friend posted a link to an article, about how Facebook owners refuse to take off the page mocking dead babies. I wrote some horrid stuff about what I wanted to happen to the page creator, and threatened to deck one of the people who commented on my friend's status, when he said how funny he thought the group was.

oh karma I commented to DH about the storyline in Eastenders as well! I said how unfair it was that these people get pregnant so easily, and we are desperately wanting a baby and can't have that. :(
You have to let it out, you can't let it eat you up from the inside!
Big hugs for you! x

karma you say that you aren't normally angry and nasty. I believe you. But be gentle with yourself - you are not in a 'normal' situation. You have every right to feel those emotions, to be 'unreasonable', to grieve in your own way. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. They are all real and valid. You are trying to find your way in a world which is very scary and cruel.

karma, those angry feelings are normal. And you know yourself that it's not you talking, it's the grief. Even when my Dad died, and that was nothing like as bad as Sylvie-Rose dying, I remember being very angry when I met a man who could have been working but was not bothered about getting a job. My Dad had been such a hard worker, never stopped and was full of life and yet he had died while this other man went on living.

Now, years on, I would never think that about a person. I would maybe pity him for having no drive or ambition but would be more likely to wonder how he had ended up like that, rather than connecting him with my Dad's death, IYKWIM.

I'm really struggling at the moment, I don't mean to rant, but I need to vent, and don't feel able to go to other sections here at the moment.

Yesterday I felt more down than I have since Tamsin was born, I don't know why, it just hit me again. And, surprisingly considering I thought I'd accepted things, I find I'm once again questioning it, finding it hard to believe it really happened, not quite accepting it again... I can't believe it has happened, and I keep reliving it over and over again in my head, trying to find the moment she left, as if I could then go back and save her.

I'm also struggling with DH. He bought a sofa that he's not happy with (he & others don't think it's comfortable), it cost more than we can afford, and as he ordered it online we can't send it back... he also slept all day yesterday.

Today he has been snapping at me (nothing out of the ordinary, but right now I feel too fragile to deal with it too).

He complained about the way I toast bread for DD1 (I put it in with the top of the slice at the top, but apparently you should put in bread sideways, so it toasts more evenly - and yes he's correct, but I wasn't thinking when I did it, just did it how I've always done, but he got so angry with me. He then moaned about how I buttered & put jam on too. I feel so bloody useless, I can't toast bread properly & I can't even keep a baby alive & safe inside my stupid bloody body!

I also get sooo fed up with him defending all and sundry. From his ex, who has two little girls the same age difference as DD1 & Tamsin, yet smoked and drank through each pregnancy, had a very late termination when she didn't know who the father was etc. Of course I don't want anything to happen to her kids, I would never want anything appoaching that, it makes me feel rubbish, when DSS comes and talks about his two half-sisters (his mums), when he should also have two here, yet for whatever reason, I was deemed unfit to have two little girls, and she acted recklessly, and had no problems... it's just the unfairness. Yet DH still defends her (I think he still holds a candle for her, and not surprising really).

Then he defends random women. Uptown, a girl with 4 kids by different fathers (she was very young & they were her own children, and very close together in age). DH asked me what I thought of her, did I think she had high moral standards (don't want to say how he put it), and I said no. He then chastised me, telling me that he assumes that she is unlucky in love, and he has a lot of sympathy for her... He also said the same about a woman I know who has 7 kids by different fathers, and she's not yet 25! DH again says that she's the type that he feels sorry for, and would want to help as obviously she's been treated rubbishly by men! In fact she got pregnant with her youngest whilst cheating on her live-in boyfriend, who was not the father of any of her kids, nor the youngest when she had a DNA test done...
yet she gets pregnant at the drop of a hat, and manages to keep the babies safe inside her.

I find DH's attitude impossible to accept - especially now. I find his defence of women - such as the one I know with 7 kids - intolerable. Of course he's entitled to his opinion, but his 'wanting to help' these women is a deal-breaker for me. I was badly treated by men before DH, yet did not get have lots of kids, as having lots of kids is not a sign that a woman has been badly treated!

Sorry for the rant, I just feel so unsympathetic & cold towards others right now. I think I hate the world right now. It seems such a lonely, scary place, and no one knows what I'm going through, no one can see my pain, so I don't give a damn about most others. Even friends have upset me recently. In fact I feel like distancing myself from some friends. I feel that I've changed totally. I feel I'm emerging into a world, that looks the same but is so totally different. A different world, one where the rules have changed, where no one is safe. And I feel I will need new friends here, not the ones who can't see how different the world is now, not the ones who want me to 'pretend' the world is the same now.

I really hope I didn't offend anyone, I just feel so desolate as I was so, so, so, very happy to be having Tamsin, and she was so loved & so wanted by me, and I feel like shouting and screaming that she isn't here. And women who are "unlucky" in love and have lots of kids because of this, don't deserve sympathy, they are so damned lucky to have their kids alive and with them, I'd take unlucly in love any day, just to have my precious child with me, and hate DH for being sympathetic to them.

I also hate that I just screwed up my eyes, to stop myself from crying & he asked if I was trying to "make yourself cry?" WTF??? Make myself cry for whom? Unless there are hidden cameras why would I do that, why is he accusing me of that???

Karma, what the actual fuck?

There is a right way and a wrong way to make toast? Seriously? And butter and jam is wrong? The only time I ever had jam without butter was when I was following Rosemary Conley's diet plan years ago and it was horrible! It's the whole reason I started on Weightwatchers because you could eat normal stuff so long as you accounted for it!

And all these other women who have been mistreated? Has he never heard the phrase "Charity begins at home" ? You have just lost your baby, fgs, life has treated you badly and what you need now is tlc.

He sounds like one of those blokes who people describe as "A pillar of the community" but treats his own family like crap.

He is messing with your head. At a time when you desperately need love and support.

karma, you are worth so much more than this!

Thank you chip. I did wonder if I should post my problems with DH on the relationship board, but don't know whether that would be appropriate, or even allowed.

He was marvellous in the midst of it all, really, really supportive. But now he has changed, and it feels like things are back to normal, and I crave that closeness that we had, I really do. I've never felt as close to anyone before, and I feel that was an illusion and an impossible dream too, just like the thought that I'd acutally have Tamsin home, things are so confusing.

I can also feel kicks now - really weird, but I really do get caught unawares with them - how can my body play such cruel tricks?

DH has decided to go back to his voluntary job next week! I know that most men have to go back to work, but that is usually because they are forced to, not because they want to leave their wives & get back to normal. He doesn't have to go back, he is choosing to leave me, and that feels bloody awful.

What's worse (as I said before) is that we were due to have an antenatal appointment the morning of the day we found Tamsin had died - there is chance that she may have been alive then, and that if she was in distress that the midwife may have been able to tell, and send me to the hospital and save her - yet he made such a fuss about having the morning off, that they made it for the next day, when it was already over.

I know I get told that I can't blame him, or that he didn't know, but he refused to take an hour off, and the truth is no one can say definitively that she wasn't alive then. I couldn't get there any other way. The surgery is miles away, I had really bad SPD, the surgery is not on a bus route, and we have a car seat that is isofix, and won't fit in anyone elses car (DH decided to get this, even when I said how restricitve it would be).

Also at this place is the woman he used to shag, who's been emailing him telling him they miss him, and it would do him good to go, and to talk to her...

I feel so much hate towards that place, and I shouldn't but I do, and that he wants to leave me when he doesn't need to.

I have mentioned this to him, but he said the world doesn't revolve around him, and he helps others so I shouldn't be selfish.

He's also told me that he never wants to have another baby with me ever.

Have to go, as he's now saying that he's going to throw my stuff away in the bedroom, as he's fed up with me not wanting to make the house look nice... I feel so useless & alone

Karma of course you are allowed to post your problems with 'd'h in the relationships section if you think it would be helpful. There are some real experts there. But you are (quite rightly) in a fragile emotional state. You may well be advised to leave him. I'd hazard a guess you are no where near up to that. He is however being an arse. How was he before you lost Tamsin? I'm not excusing his behaviour in any way just wondered if it was out of character? I know my dp has been very snappy and irritable with me since losing Erin. He is very angry and hurting a lot and instead of explaining that he's shouting about silly things.

I know what you mean about the closeness. We clung together for dear life for about the first month but gradually we've slipped back to how we were before. I think actually it got too intense for both of us.

And yes 'phantom kicks' plague me too

Huge hugs xx

Whatever karma did have a thread in relationships before she lost Tamsin. He appeared to be an arse then too!

karma, normally I would be very wary of telling someone to break up with their dp after a bereavement as it can affect a relationship and sometimes counselling might help you work through it. But honestly, he is nothing short of abusive. The best he could manage was to support to through the funeral and as soon as it was over, he reverted to type.

It really doesn't bode well that he's told you he never wants another baby with you. Every couple is different but I have noticed that most couples who lose a baby seem to try ASAP for another. Not that you can replace your baby but because a "rainbow baby" helps to heal the hurt. My own dh is very upset for me that I had a hysterectomy and we don't have that option. If he could trade his right arm for a uterus for me, he would.

Is there anywhere you and dd could go for a couple of days, your Mum's? I really don't think being with him is doing you any good.

Ah i'm sorry Karma I didn't realise he had previous form

chip I so wish it wasn't so, but you are right. I just need to somehow find the courage, which is hard, as everyone (my family, my friends, the bereavement midwife, the health visitor, my mental health team etc) all think he is the paragon of a loving, devoted husband. As he'd been lifting DD1, and being with her more, she's also much closer to him, she squeals with delight when he appears, and hits me away. I feel so, so alone.

I'm still so wobbly at the moment, and have gone backwards in terms of acceptance. I now keep reliving that night over & over, trying to pinpoint the minute it happened (I may be repeating myself here). Christmas is coming so soon, and I can't bear it, I really can't. I think DSS may be coming, despite my desire for him to come at new year instead, though DH hasn't told me yet. I'm not looking forward to it.

I wish I did have someone in RL to turn to. It's getting to the stage that I just want to run away, leaving DD1 with her dad. I can't turn to my mum, she makes me feel so bad about Tamsin, saying how I should have gone to hospital earlier, how bad she feels, how she can't imagine how bad I feel, and I just want to say how I feel, not how she imagines how I feel, and sometimes I don't want to at all, as she cries, and that makes me feel responsible. Besides, I have asked her, and she thinks DH is being so good.

DH spent a day asleep the other day, and I let him. Last night I couldn't sleep (tummy pain, back pain, crying etc). I still got up to see to DD1, then went to get DH to lift her out of her cot, and he complained about being tired. When I pointed out that he'd had a whole days sleep - something I'd not had, even after coming home from hospital & being told to - he retorted that I spend all day on my effing laptop, and haven't bothered trying to make the house nice. I do do things with DD1 now, except lifting her. I don't though, give a toss about the house, I really don't. I should be looking after a newborn, and somehow helping DH decide where to move furniture is no substitute. In fact I don't even want to get up at all, and only do so for DD1, as long as she's looked after the rest can go to hell.

I feel so alone though. DH has moved on. He doesn't understand my lack of motivation. I really, really want Tamsin back, so, so much it hurts. I just want her, and at the moment nothing else matters. I still can't quite understand how it happened, it all seems like a really bad dream, but I try to wake, and can't

The other thing that bugs me at the moment, is the stupid platitudes that are handed out - such as 'it was for the best', best for who? Best for Tamsin who's dead, best for me, that I should have to go through this???

Or, "it's lucky that you have DD1" yes, I know that, but it's not lucky that Tamsin died - not for Tamsin, and surely she deserved to have a chance of life?

Karma I have been very reluctant to post what I think of your H but as Chip has brought up just what an abusive arse he is being I feel more able to say that I suspect he is still involved with this woman where he volunteers - certainly he is overly insistant on being there...

I have no ideas of what you can do to protect yourself under such hideous circumstances. If I didn't have youngish children and a husband and a full time job (we both work FT) I would offer for you and dd1 to come here until you were strong enough (emotionally, physically and mentally) to live by yourself.

I don't know perhaps staying at a womans aid hostel is preferable to the situation you are tolerating now. I'm sure those other women would give you more compassion than your h is at the moment.

The intense grief is normal, I remember the Dad who lost his son 2 years ago saying that often throughout that first year he would wake in the night as his wife sobbed and all he could do was put his arm around her, sometimes they would both cry sometimes not. There are no words you can say but being loving and comforting is what people who care for one another do.

Bless you Random xx

Well I'm now sleeping on the couch, I cannot cope with how cold he's beocme towards me, I just feel so alone. I really want to cut myself, to releive this pain, but am struggling to resist.

He thinks that I'm in one of my "moods" and have on of my "heads" on. I'm sitting down here, in the cold, sobbing my heart out while he lies in bed eating chocolate. He doesn't ever put an arm around me like the man in your tale

Your H is an arse, I'm sorry but I think emotionally he has long since abandoned your marriage

Oh, karma! Hate to think of you all alone on the couch and crying.

Karma, we are all here for you. You are not alone. We are sending you strength, love and tenderness. We can't take the pain away, but we can give you support as you deal with it. Your pain is your love for your beautiful Tamsin.

Can I suggest that you try and get out of the house, just for a little while? Go for a walk or a drive, or just sit somewhere quiet. Being away from your DH and everyday surroundings might help, so you don't have to worry about feeling sad around others and being yelled at for your very real emotions.

Platitudes are crap. It is not the 'best' that Tamsin died, nor that you are feeling so sad. And yes, you have your DD1 but she is unique, just as your little Tamsin is. Never a replacement. How people can say such foolish things I do not know. Maybe they don't know what to say, and thoughtlessly say any stupid thing to try and make you feel better - I am sure no-one wants you to feel worse! Just tell them that this sort of comment isn't helpful.

Yes, I think the platitudes are because people don't know what to say, but rather than just giving you a hug, they spend hours thinking of what to say that might make you feel better and in the end they come up with a heap of crap! Because they can't see that nothing will make it better, there is no bright side to losing a child.

Karma I have nothing contructive to add, but want to say that I'm thinking of you, and I'm sorry that you are feeling so unsupported in your grief. It's so hard when friends just don't understand. Keep talking to us on here x

Thank you. I feel bad to keep venting on here, it makes me feel a bit selfish when everyone else is grieving too, though I do feel like this is the only place to get it out, as it's too hard in RL. My mum tries to help, but she's always telling me how bad I must feel, and getting angry, and forever saying she doesn't know how I cope, so I avoid talking to her. My friends are either avoiding me, or say the wrong things... aargh!

I don't know why but I'm sure I'm going backwards. I'm stuck on a loop, and keep reliving the night we found out she'd died, over and over.

I keep trying to go back there, to remember it clearly, to try to change the outcome almost... it's driving me crazy to replay it over & over. Everytime I do it's like it's happening again - and I'm genuinely shocked - just like I was the first time...it's not logical, but I'm still habing real trouble believing it.

I keep seeing her face, I don't even need to close my eyes to see her. I keep seeing her thick black hair, and thinking how unfair it is... DS and DD1 both had practically no hair, and what there was, was very blonde. I just can't bear it.

It's not just me I'm crying for - it's so unfair for her. That she never had a chance, that she never got to even taste my milk, never had a chance to even look at her parents.

I read a lovely thing today though - someone was saying that at least their baby was always with them and never alone - even when they died, as they were in their tummies, and that's the only thing that gives me even a sliver of comfort, that she was always with me.

I'm still musing over the fact that I was terrified of stillbirth, so terrified and yet it still happened - that I'm living through what I knew would be my worst nightmare.

And I'm still alone. I was in the bedroom crying & DH came in & asked what I was doing (how bloody dumb is that?), he didn't even put an arm around me, just walked out, so I've been really angry at him. In the hospital, when I broke down straight after the caesarean, he came to me, and even though I pushed him away, he continued to hold me, till I fell into him. Now he's past that, and is no longer interested in comforting me, he says that we have things to do, and I should stop dwelling on it, as life goes on.

This has made me so upset/angry that I even refused to see to DD1 when she was crying in her cot. I don't know why, but I decided that I didn't want to look after her for a while... I did relent in the end, but it shocked me. I don't know if I'm now so scared to love her, or whether I'm just evil...

I can't bear to look at Tamsin's photos, yet I want to. But they hurt so, so much. She really was beautiful, and perfect, even though she was macerated. Her hand holding mine & DH's fingers is my facebook profile picture, and it breaks my heart to look at it. God I thought this was supposed to get easier...

And yes DH does have previous. He went on holiday when I was pregnant with DD1, then again when she was 4 months old (alone to the Canaries). I also found photos of his 'privates' on his camera - he swore he took them to send me when I was having DD1, but I never received them. I'd written threads about him on here, and I wish, I just wish none of it was true. But I was comforted by him so much when Tamsin died, and I really thought he loved me, now I don't... and he's back to blaming my MH issues!

I just want some closeness, some comfort, as right now I'm in such a bad place

I wish there was someone there to comfort you too. To silently hold you

The more you have someone invalidating your feelings the more you are going to struggle to cope and grieve in a "healthy" way. It reads to me that he is contributing to your MH issues by telling you how you should be

Karma, you are welcome to vent here. All you are doing is trying to make sense of your world when it doesn't make sense, and get through each second as best you can. Your H or your mum can't tell you how you should feel. Grief is not neat and tidy and prescriptive.

Trying to change the past is what I do too. As if I understand things better, then I can change it and have Mia back. Then I remember I can't. It is a horrible, vicious cycle and I go through it most days, more than once. And I cry, how I cry. Like you, I mourn the future, the future that Mia is not going to have.

Tonight, I have been given some lovely poems on my own thread from other MN-ers. If you'd like, I'm sure that they would be happy for me to post them on yours.

Karma I'm so sorry you are not getting the comfort and support you need right now. Have you considered speaking with a bereavement counsellor? I had my first session last week and it really helped order my thoughts a bit xx

I think we all feel that we can somehow go back and save them. I believe that at some point there is an acceptance that they won't come back but I am far from that point now. I think that if I knew what I know now, I would drive her to the hospital on that fateful day and wait outside. Or in the SCBU I would make up an excuse for them to keep her for four more days. I wonder whether if she had still been in hospital, could they have saved her. I also imagine a Star-Trek like situation with parallel universes and somehow, I am in the wrong universe, the one where she died and there is another universe where she is still alive. And if I can only find my way back.......It must be normal because we all seem to be thinking that way. ( Apart from Star Trek, that may be unique to me!)

I also think that with my other children, particularly the smaller ones, I don't have the patience I had, and God knows, I didn't have much! If ds4 has a toilet accident, I get so irritated and thinking the only time I should be doing this kind of cleaning up is for my new baby who is gone. And I resent having to do it for him, although I am trying not to show it because he's really just a baby too.

But karma, I have a dh who does give me big bear hugs when I need them, and who is understanding about how I feel.

I agree with Whatever about Bereavement counselling. Normally they do make you wait a while, but given that you dh is not supporting you, perhaps it would be a good idea?

Mia you seem so unbelievably strong & brave, I don't know how you, or indeed the other posters, are managing to function xx

I will try the bereavement counselling. I know a fantastic health vsitor (well she's acutally just retired) and she is just the best person I know in real life. She's actually experienced, and knows what it's like, not just the 'right' things to say. She used to run a group just down the road, but can't now, which is a shame, as I'd have met local mums, who are going/been through the same thing.

She has suggested the child bereavement trust, which is local to me, so I will ring them soon, I just can't bring myself to talk to them yet.

I've also spoken to my bereavement midwife. She's great, but it's phone support, and I need to talk face to face - I'd rather talk face to face, or on the net, but hate talking on the phone, and cannot express myself. Also she wants me to get out and socialise, which is what the crisis team did. And, I don't want to. I know it's unhealthy to sit in and isolate myself, but by the same token I don't want to go out and talk to others. I'd feel guilty going to new toddler groups, befriending new mums - who won't know about Tamsin, and just starting again... I feel bad for DD1, but I just don't want to go there.

I do go uptown sometimes, and it's hard, it's bloody hard, but I do it, and I get sad, and panicky, but I don't have to talk to anyone, and that's what I need, to be distracted, but not having to interact. By going to groups, where there's other mums, I'll have to talk to them, and I'm not ready to talk about Tamsin, but neither am I prepared to sit there and discuss family without mentioning her, and I'll find it hard to be interested in hearing about others complete families, and smile, without getting either upset or angry.

The other alternative would be to sit there and not talk, and then have time to think about Tamsin & get upset... there is no way that I can think of doing it at all. It's not fair on DD1 I know that, but I can't pretend. I hated mother and toddler/baby groups anyway, I only did them out of obligation to DD1. I was secretly glad when DS started playgroup and I didn't have to stay with him anymore. I can just imagine a jolly mummy coming up and being friendly, talking about her 'perfect' family, and wanting to scream at her, or worse seeing a pregnant woman & her wanting to talk to me. Or, seeing siblings, knowing that DD1 will never get to play with hers...

I don't see a way out. I just can't win. I feel pressured by the midwife to 'get out there' (in other words trying to be 'normal' again), as if I'm a teenage girl moping about after being dumped.

There is nothing worse than losing a child, so I don't see sitting in and away from toddler groups as being bad to be honest, unhealthy maybe, but even so, I don't really care at the moment