Threatening a misbehaving child with a cold shower

[Bonsoir]

I just witnessed DD's class teacher having a word at pick-up time with someone who I think is the grandmother of another girl in DD's class. The teacher was obviously very angry about this little girl's misbehaviour because she was raising her voice a bit and looked very cross.

Two minutes later the grandmother was telling the little girl off good and proper - so much so that the child had a screaming meltdown tantrum on the pavement opposite school. Grandmother hit the little girl and threatened her with a cold shower.

Poor, poor little girl. She is adopted and has some developmental/behavioural issues. But that doesn't seem like the right way to go about helping her overcome them...

Bonsoir, my French DP's mother used cold showers as a punishment (along with a whole range of other abusive methods).

This is the first I've heard of it being used by anyone else- although I don't think this makes it any less abusive. My DP makes a thousand and one excuses for his abusive mother; yet he wouldn't dream of doing any of the things she did to our DD.

It is sounding more and more likely that the threat was not an empty one. So what do you think you will do Bonsoir?

Speaking to the girl's mother is one course of action but do bear in mind that she most probably has had a similar experience to your DP.

There is the possibility here that the grandmother was given cold showers herself as a child and was using as a threat the worst thing that happened to her, but somehow it just doesn't sound like that to me.

How did the little girl react when given the threat? It's too premeditated for me, I too can understand ( but not condone)someone "reacting" but as has been said planning to cold shower a child is unacceptable to me. Exactly what is it going to teach the child other than the supposedly loving caring parent is bigger and stronger and can do whatever they want and make the child as uncomfortable as they want and no-one will stop them.

This scenario makes me concerned on several counts and yes there is a degree of speculation from all of us because we don't any of us really know the whole situation, Anna doesn't either.

A relative of mine has adopted children, she receives lots of help, but then she's the type to ask...

I wonder what the childs real mother would think of this situation, probably thinking she did the best for her child by having her adopted?

I think the teacher needs to be told what occured after she left. I freely admit I know very little if nothing about the french school system, but surely the teacher should be able to get some assistance for this child and her family? Even a referral if this child does have behavioural problems. It does sound like the family needs help.

Either way no matter what, what happened was not ok, personally I would have to speak to someone or my concience would kill me, as a last resort I would end up befriending the grandmother and trying to help her myself.

Sorry i'm rambling, shouldn't be on here i'm tired.

I want to be absolutely clear: nowhere on this thread (or in my mind) have I speculated about whether I thought the GM might be intending to carry out her threat. I have no information whatsoever on which to base an opinion either way. The only thing I can tell was that it wasn't a jokey, playful threat designed to diffuse a child's minor misbehaviour, but a menacing sort of threat. And I think that is bad enough (and what made me feel cold inside), especially since the child in question is most definitely a bit fragile (possibly vulnerable).

this has made me sad my ds has ASD and went through stage of being petrified of showers or baths and i remember someone saying to me why dont you threaten him with a bath if he misbehaves

so its quite possible this girl is going through the same and this is one fear that will hopefully make her behave

to me i feel whatever he special needs are maybe the family dont understand it and instead of understanding her behaviour and dealing with the real issues there making threats that work for short time as its possibly on her fear but not dealing with the bigger picture

maybe they could do with some extra support to understand her and her actions clearly and how to deal with them in a reasonable manner and support

could you have quiet word with teacher and maybe she could see if any support groups etc for family and child if not she can at least keep and eye on the child and maybe express the problems and actions nicer to family

it seems all around the child could do better with dealing with her needs inc school

also smacking and shouting at the child straight away with special needs you have lost them at that they are never going to take in what your saying now poor child maybe inform the school about witnessing child being smacked it really seems no one has any support and no one knows how to deal with her correctly instead of understanding they seem more frustrated so i would imagine the family could do with a bit more help

There is of course a difference between a "oh come on guys, if you dont behave I will chuck you in the bin" and "you wretched child, if you dont stop this tantrum at once I shall chuck you into a cold shower" The difference is not only in the nuances, but in the scenario, an angry grandmother who has just been shouted at and a child with challenging behaviour.

I once alerted the school about a couple of incidents related to my sons classmate. A little boy (also 5) who were frequently hit across the head by his mum. Once he was lying on the floor crying and she kicked him. I dont think the school did anything, how would it look if the school admitted such beahviour from the parishioners, such a nice close knit devout RC community.

Anyway Anna, if this is "normal" french childrearing, and the teacher is so insensitive that she shouts to the grandma about this childs behaviour, I dont think you will get very far by talking to the teacher. Try gauging the reaction from the other parents before you say something?

I'm definitely not going to gossip about this with other parents at school .

DP (and he is as French as they come) thinks it is old-fashioned behaviour - he think it is misguided and no longer really acceptable.

There are nuances between gossiping and showing concern, a difficult line to thread for many. Keeping up appearances and discretion seems to be working against this child.

Bonsoir, I will freely admit to speculating wildly here in an attempt to get my head around the situation with a view to providing assistance.

I will freely admit to having no direct experience of child abuse and I apologise in advance if anything I write offends anyone.

DH and I spoke about this last night. One of the things we considered was that it could possibly be a fully meditated type of discipline which the Grandmother may (or may not) believe will work. We were then stuck as to whether or not it came under the umbrella of 'abuse'.

Both DH and I decided that not disciplining a child could in some circumstances be tantamount to 'abuse' i.e. allowing them to be unruly/misbehave at will without rebuke/correction.

One small thing that may be beneficial for this child (and her parent/grandparent) would be to meet with other (well-behaved) children/parents in a more relaxed atmosphere than school. Perhaps then it may become obvious to the Grandmother that her methods are outdated.

thedolly - do you think that public humiliation is a useful form of discipline?

There is ample opportunity for children at DD's school to meet other parents and children in a relaxed atmosphere as many, many children to to the public park next to the school after school every day. I have never seen this little girl at the sandpit or on the climbing frame at tea time.

Good advice from YoMoJo.

IMO its abusive behaviour - unlikely to do anything but frighten the child (ie she wouldn't learn from it). However, I think you would have been unlikely to get anywhere with the grandmother by confronting/discussing it with her. She would have to learn to approach discipline differently, and that's unlikely to happen due to 3 minute interchange with a stranger in the street.

Whilst the cold shower treatment may be pre meditated, I doubt that the shouting in the street was. What I think is fairly irrelevant here really. I wouldn't humiliate myself by shouting at my children in the street since you asked.

I have to agree that the grandmother's reaction is very typical of her generation. DH was slapped, pinched, and bonked over the head with an umbrella quite frequently by his mum. She used levels of humiliation to punish him which I find unforgiveable (eg, he didn't like spinach and refused to eat it. As a punishment, she made a large sign saying "I refused to eat my spinich" and made him wear it in the streets and at school for 2 days).

She still slaps him if she is cross.

Would you consider extending an invitation to them to join 'you' at the park. That is the sort of thing I was getting at.

So presumably you wouldn't like it either if you child had been publicly humiliated, first by being party to a dressing down of her grandmother (in front of classmates and classmates' mothers/carers) and secondly by being told off (that provoked a tantrum) and then hit and threatened, in front of the same audience? Not forgetting that the same child had misbehaved at school in front of her classmates and had been sent out of the classroom to be cared for by an assistant.

Grrrrr. I am so sad on this little girl's behalf. Her self-esteem must be rock bottom. She's developmentally behind, behaviourally behind, has thick glasses, a squint and a patched eye, doesn't have the proper school uniform smock, doesn't look well cared for (in a school of very well care for children). Not surprising she doesn't behave well - it's probably the only way she has found to draw attention to herself.

Oh, and I don't think that she was kidding - DH's mother would do this (carry it out!).

thedolly - that's just not how things work. The whole point and beauty about the park thing is that isn't by invitation - everyone is welcome and free to join in, but it isn't cliquey (or rather, there are cliques, but you don't want to go there).

SofaQueen - sounds like my DP's childhood! MOL used to shout at DP and his brother, saying "Je vais vous dresser". And POL used to hit them with his belt, at MOL's request .

MOL stopped hitting DP when he was about 15 - he grabbed her approaching hand one day and placed it gently but firmly on her cheek!

Someone must be taking care of her education though having presumably chosen a good school for her - no?

I'm sure the mother has all sorts of strong feelings about education - she sent a very fierce email round the class in December asking parents not to provide sweets at class parties.

Of course, having strong feelings about upbringing and education doesn't of itself guarantee kindness.

It may not be how things work in normal circumstances but this is about showing a little human compassion. It is obvious that you care about what is happening to this child.

My slightly younger cousin used to get a cup of water over her head during her tantrums.

Just spoke with DH and he told me that it was normal in France to shove kids under a cold shower if they were uncontrollable (obviously when he was growing up there). Said this matter-of-factly!