What would YOU do in this situation?

[TheLadyEvenstar]

Ok so yesterday ds1 was home early from school. I had planned to take ds1 and ds2 to the indoor play. I asked ds1 to help me get things sorted out and for him to pick the 3 things off the floor that needed picking up. He said no and immediatly started shouting at me.

I ignored him but he would not let up.
This went on from 10am until 7pm last night. I did not shout at him or raise to the bait in any way other than to say "If you don't do as I ask I will take one of your toys away" which i ended up doing.

He then started screaming and shouting even louder so I took his mobile phone away. I had it in my hand and he went to grab it. Obviously being bigger than him I just stood up and he repeatedly jumped up grabbing my arm, I still never reacted - it took a lot not to I will admit.

After 25 minutes of him trying to grab his phone he went to hit me at which point I grabbed his arm and told him if he did hit me not only would I slap him I would be calling the police.

I know I was wrong to threaten to slap him, even though I did not shout it was wrong.

I took his phone and hid it because otherwise he would have kept taking it back.

When i came back in the living room he was going right into one throwing all the clothes (off washing airer) onto the floor, DS2's toys everywhere, he shoved ds2 over, and then grabbed the book ds2 had been playing with (an interactive one) and started slamming it into the ground until it broke.

DS2 kept trying to get it to work and saying "oh bwoke" he is just 2 yrs old. today he keeps looking for it.

What would you do in this situation? I am amazed at myself that I kept a cool calm head yesterday, but today he wants to be my best friend and he seems to have forgotten what happened yesterday. He is 11 BTW. Has no SN, has been seeing a child psychologist for the last 5 months who now agrees that to DS1 this is a game. He has spoken to him in great length and DS1 is so brazen with his statements of "I know what I am doing and can stop but I don't want to I am not bored with this yet".

TBH I know I haveposted on here numerous times about his behaviour and it has appeared I have not listened to advice but I have taken all on board, tried all the different methods suggested, and taken away from the threads that sometimes I over react. Yesterday I did not I really kept a calm head.

PTS,
yes he screamed and shouted, threw things around, stomped out of the flat into the street in nothing but socks and no jacket
then stood banging on the door.

I know it is unbelievable but it happened.

I think it sounds as though are going to have to persevre (sp?) in the same brilliant manner (well except the threatened slap but we're all human aren't we). It sounds as though it's going to take a long time of your persistence to prove that you are not prepared to pay that game with him.

Does that make sense?

Can you lots of g & t in for the evenings to help you recover?

I folded clothes, loaded and unloaded the dishwasher, ironed, washed the floors, washed ds2s nappies, sorted clothes out for charity....anything to keep myself occupied and ignoring him tbh

Car, I know it is going to take a lot of work.

I just needed to get it all off my chest!

I have a lovely bottle of WINE water for this evening.

I think it sounds like you handled it the right way and that is the way I dealt with the dds tantrums but of course they were younger then.

They haven't returned to that kind of level yet though.

Can you talk to him today about the consequence of his behaviour yesterday, yes he lost his phone but is there something else appropriate that could be a consequence?? Don't have any ideas. Or it could be a discussion of the consequences if he chooses to behave like that again?

PTS, I told him from day one it was a game, I knew what DS1 was up to.

the phone thing happened around 6ish and then there was all the time of him trying to get it off me, then throwing everything.

At 7 DP came in and ds1 stopped as soon as he knocked on the door.

I have told the psych that he needs to pay more attention to what the adults around him are saying

It sounds as if he doesn't do it with DP. I would sit down with DP today and both of you tell him that it is your house, he abides by your rules and you are simply not having it. I would draw up with him a list of essential rules that he has to stick to and ignore the lesser ones. If he refuses to keep to them I would remove all privileges and make him earn them.

You are right he doesn't do it with dp.

The rules list is a good idea. When DP gets in I will get ds2 to sleep so there is no distractions and we can talk to ds1.

Thanks Pisces

why was he not at school? tbh i think he needs more than a psych. i think he needs to learn how to vent frustrations in an acceptable way.

you shouldnt have threatened to slap him but you know this.

you did well to keep your cool. this is the key. you do have to do this everytime he acts up. he needs to see that you will not rise to it. be consistent and follow up on threats to remove toys/phone etc.

sit down with your DP and discuss what sort of consequences you both feel are appropriate. you both need to be on the same page and show ds a united front. then you both sit down with ds and tell him in no uncertain terms that his behaviour was unacceptable and that as a consequence such and such will happen/be taken away. and you do this everytime he acts up. tell him that you and DP have had enough and are now clamping down on all bad behaviour. tell him the behaviour you expect from him ie; speak in a calm tone, do what he's asked to do, be respectful of all property not belonging to him. tell him you love him very much and that you will no longer allow him to do this to himself or your family.

make it very clear that this is a new start, yesterday was the last straw and that from now on there will be zero tolerance and he is expected to comply.

i know its hard but really you cannot let him carry on like this.

also be aware of how you all speak to each other. if you and DP shout during a row then ds learns that is how you deal with anger. he needs to learn that its ok to feel angry but that its not ok to shout and be violent. teach him how to vent it properly. could he do start a sport/martial arts class? very effective in releasing tension and pent up frustration in boys as they have higher levels of testosterone than girls.

why did he leave school at 10am or did I get the wrong end of the stick?

Booyhoo, yesterday was an APP day, where the pupils went in for an appointment to set their targets and then came home. I didn't even know about it until he text to say he was on his way home.

I agree he has to learn how to vent his frustrations...in this sense he is immature in other ways he is very mature. iyswim?

I know I shouldn't have threatened to slap him,I had had 25-35 minutes of him grabbing my arm and pulling it. then he went to hit me, he had already slapped me. Doesn't make my threat right i know.

Yesterday I gave him plenty of warning when he started throwing stuff that if he threw another thing I would throw one of his toys out in the bin, it is still there.
As for his phone it is in my eyesight as he is not getting it back until he earns it. He has asked me 8 times in the last hour if he can get his toy out of the bin but i have said no.

DP is due home in the next hour or so so i willhave a talk with him then and then we can talk to ds1.

DP and I rarely row and when we do we do it away from the dc and hardly shout or raise our voices.

He has started Fencing at school so I am hoping this will help. He has 2 other afterschool clubs he has joined as well, both his own choice.

I agree with Booyhoo. Start the chat with the fact that yesterday was the last straw and you are never having a repeat.Ask him what he thinks of his behaviour. Ask him why he did it. Ask him what he thinks would be a better, more effective strategy if he is frustrated or bad tempered.Try and think of one together if he fails, even if it is just something like a cool off zone with a bean bag he can thump!
I would talk very calmly, tell him that you all have to live together and it is a matter of compromise. When you come up with a list of rules involve him and see if there is anything he thinks unfair and whether there is anything you could do-e.g spending time with just him without the younger DCs. Be prepared to treat him in a more adult way, if he behaves in a more adult way.
My DS1 used to boil over in frustration-he hated talking it over afterwards when calm and the think that stopped him (when about 12yrs) was the realisation that as he got older it was more and more unacceptable and he was going to have to talk about it more. He didn't like having to justify the unjustifiable and so he stopped. To quote the school 'he turned it off like a tap'!
Good luck.

Next time can you video/film him behaving like a toddler?

Make him watch it and ask what he would think if he saw his friends behave like that?

He probably doesn't realise how ridiculous he looks behaving like a toddler and his age.

i've previously told you what to do.....film him!

my ds ius 11....used to have these 'meltdowns'....he needs to SEE himself.

then ask show him on a calm day,when he's not expecting it. ask him what his friends would make of it....he will seriously not like that thought.

Has he been referred to CAMHS?

I think the filming idea is interesting but having had this sort of behaviour gone by I would worry that it would make behaviour worse and result in the camera being broken and more violence.

Evenstar, your ignoring is good and I'm amazed you kept it up. It's awful for your 2yo and you must be so worried about him.

The self-control issue is becoming quite urgent as before long it will affect your 2yo's life in a very practical way: before long you will need him to cooperate because you will not be able to give up on activities and simply going out for the little one's sake, things that need to be done.

Would it be possible to give a timeline of a month, which means you could see the end of it. During this time you can follow through completely with everything, no inconsistency. It would take a lot of planning and a lot of readiness to cancel. For example, never leaving yourself in a situation where you have to give in because you absolutely have to out and get things or see people. Maybe talking to other mums and family to get some support

Having a timeline of a month would help, I think, to be tougher.

I have to go but I will be back because I think your situation is very difficult.

I believe I have posted before and you disagreed with me then.

If it were my 11 year old there would be no mobile phone. What exactly has he done to deserve such a great pivilege?

I would not just start ignoring the behaviour I would make some kind of statement before beginning a timed ignoring period at which point there would be a consequence - you cannot ignore abusive behaviour as though it isn't happening.

I'd start at the root cause of this and make progress when things are calm - not talk when something has happened.

I'd apologise for the fact that something has made this child very unhappy and I would chip away at understanding what this is and putting this right together using firm but loving treatment.

I would not consider that I had even started on the road to recovery until I had taught myself how to not react by threatening and snapping. To do this I'd have to be in the position where I had learned how to control the situation so that I was not having to have the patience of a saint for hours on end due to tantrums and abuse from the child himself. This last paragraph indicates what a vicious circle you have going on.

I know why you snapped but to be honest, you might as well have yelled your head of during the first five minutes because the threat of a slap and calling the police (miught as well have admitted how little control you have upfront with that statement) undermined all the patience you showed him all day.

He has more stamina for this nasty atmosphere than you and once again he has pushed you to your limit and remains, therefore unhappy but triumphant.

i wouldnt have had 25 mins of trying to grab phone i would have put phone away removed him from the room and told him to come back when he can behave

i have ds with ASD i do not tolerate such behaviour from him and he knows it

you are obviously calm but your also allowing the games to take place for leaving it 25 mins with him trying to get phone i would have been straight up and phone would ahve been put away and i wouldn't entertain him even trying to get it

if he doesn't do this with his dad then he is physically capable of stopping this behaviour alone

i think you need to show him your not playing games and your in charge

i would sit him down and ask what it is that upsets him is he upset or jealous of attention of younger child could he want more time alone with you one to one does he feel he cant talk to you etc as he is able to behave when his dad comes back as he knows it wont be tolerated

his angry for some reason and this is what needs to be gotten at

my nephew was very much like this and it was jealousy because he either had to watch younger sibling or his mum never had time to talk with him as she was busy with younger sibling he became to resent that so they started going out 1 evening a week to pizza hut just them to talk and build on there relationship can say now all is well

good luck

i don't believe ignoring him works anbyway. with toddlers yes,but he's at secondary school now!!!

you need to address it. i'm sorry,but ignnoring this plays right into his hands. he can act like this as much as he likes,secure in the knowledge he can go a bit further each time.

he knows nhe isn't being 'ignored',he knows you are watching/listening/taking it all in....a toddler doesn't realise this,but an 11 year old does.

i think you are handling it wrong....why has he got his phone back after last incident anyway? when he smashed up your phone? thought you had taken it off him

TLE - i think you have to sort ds1 out soon as ds2 is watching him acting like this & it wont be long before you have both of them screaming & throwing tantrums
my ds is 10 & if he goes too far with me i take all his psp, ds , & mobiles off him for a week .

Hobgoblin you are very tough, it sounds like a war of attrition to me.. Evenstar has tried many different things and this is often part of the problem -- changing approaches is not always productive. Also making Even feel worse is not going to help. Confidence on the part of the mother is key.

"I would not consider that I had even started on the road to recovery until I had taught myself how to not react by threatening and snapping." This, for example. It's a journey for two people and Even needs to get over it and move on quickly and consistently, with resolution, not wallow in self-chastisement.

Bubblagirl's idea of one on one time is very good. He needs to get into the habit of relating with maturity and this would help enormously.

i would take all his priviledges now and tell him that his good behaviour will earn them back. things like computers, tv time, time out with friends, time out as a family and his phone.

hobgoblin that is excellent advice.

tles, it seems your ds has a problem with his behaviour. what hobgoblin says is right, you need to be able to control the situation, rather than relying on the 'wait til your father gets home' mentality. i.e; phoning the police or waiting for dp to get home.

he needs to know that you are completely capable of dealing with him alone and that you will. your partner should back you up but not take over.

your ds obviously has issues and they need addressing. but tbh i think this will require the whole family to seek help and change the way you all deal with things, speak to each other, resolve issues.

this is not something you can fix overnight with a new discipline tehnique. this will take time, 1 step forward and 2 steps back. you all need to be onboard and your ds needs to be included and realise that his opinion/feelings are valid.