What would YOU do in this situation?

[TheLadyEvenstar]

Ok so yesterday ds1 was home early from school. I had planned to take ds1 and ds2 to the indoor play. I asked ds1 to help me get things sorted out and for him to pick the 3 things off the floor that needed picking up. He said no and immediatly started shouting at me.

I ignored him but he would not let up.
This went on from 10am until 7pm last night. I did not shout at him or raise to the bait in any way other than to say "If you don't do as I ask I will take one of your toys away" which i ended up doing.

He then started screaming and shouting even louder so I took his mobile phone away. I had it in my hand and he went to grab it. Obviously being bigger than him I just stood up and he repeatedly jumped up grabbing my arm, I still never reacted - it took a lot not to I will admit.

After 25 minutes of him trying to grab his phone he went to hit me at which point I grabbed his arm and told him if he did hit me not only would I slap him I would be calling the police.

I know I was wrong to threaten to slap him, even though I did not shout it was wrong.

I took his phone and hid it because otherwise he would have kept taking it back.

When i came back in the living room he was going right into one throwing all the clothes (off washing airer) onto the floor, DS2's toys everywhere, he shoved ds2 over, and then grabbed the book ds2 had been playing with (an interactive one) and started slamming it into the ground until it broke.

DS2 kept trying to get it to work and saying "oh bwoke" he is just 2 yrs old. today he keeps looking for it.

What would you do in this situation? I am amazed at myself that I kept a cool calm head yesterday, but today he wants to be my best friend and he seems to have forgotten what happened yesterday. He is 11 BTW. Has no SN, has been seeing a child psychologist for the last 5 months who now agrees that to DS1 this is a game. He has spoken to him in great length and DS1 is so brazen with his statements of "I know what I am doing and can stop but I don't want to I am not bored with this yet".

TBH I know I haveposted on here numerous times about his behaviour and it has appeared I have not listened to advice but I have taken all on board, tried all the different methods suggested, and taken away from the threads that sometimes I over react. Yesterday I did not I really kept a calm head.

First of all sorry if i miss anything out in my reply, I am trying to remember it all!

ILT I have filmed him twice now and shown him it when he is calm. When he is calm he says that he is over reacting to silly things, but then when something upsets him he acts the same again and laughs at me when I gently remind him how silly he looks....using his own words.

Stuffit It is terrifying for me when he is like this especially as DS2 gets scared, I have had to walk out before with him because of this. For everyones sake TBH.

I hope I can explain this properly..

He can control the way he behaves, ok I am going to explain as best as I can, Sorry I am tired today.

If he wakes up in the morning and he gets to lounge around doing nothing all day, go fishing, or somewhere of his choice then he will be the perfectly behaved polite, nice,well spoken child ever.
If he wakes up and at any point in the day is asked to do something as simple as turn the kettle on then that is a cue for ww300000.

He stays with family and does whatever he is asked, does what DP asks him for the main however when I ask him to do something this is when he kicks off.

stuffit I like the idea of a month timeline....

Hobbgoblin I possibly disagreed with you, probably because I was forever trying to make excuses for him.

He has the mobile phone to use just to let me know he is at school and for when he is on his way home from school, because he has extended school 3 days a week.

I had not reacted or snapped until he went to hit me and after he had already slapped me.

I have had numerous casual talks with him, without making a big deal out of things, and each time he has a different reason for being unhappy, these reasons can range from wanting a pack of match attax cards, to wanting a pair of kickers, but the all time favourite for him is he blames me for his father leaving and not wanting to know him.

A lot of people have tried to explain to him that if his father wanted to know then he has his number and could contact him. This is never a good enough answer for him. But nobody can get his father to have contact.

Bubbla I had the phone in my hand because I had taken it off of him and ds2 was clambering up me so I couldn't move. Then DS2 started to fall asleep and I didn't feel comfortable leaving him in the room with ds1 iyswim? the mood he was in and having already shoved him over i was worried. I put ds1 into his room at least 25 times during the day yesterday but short of locking the door i can't get him to stay.

ILT I never thought of it as ignoring him playing into his hands tbh, I thought, having followed advice given on here, that this was going to show I was not going to be bothered by him.

He got his phone back because he started back at school and it was needed.

BGDC That, I have to say, Is my greatest fear that ds2 who is so far very placid will begin to behave the same.

Stuffit, I have asked if he wants time with me, where he would like to go, what he would like to do, would he like to go bowling (something he loves) once a week with me. But his answer is always the same..."No, I want to go with Dad, DS2 and You or not at all"

I am taking all your advice and keeping note of it because I really want this to come to an end sooner rather than later.

you put him in his room 25 times?

i dont doubt at all you have done all you can its very difficult when all falls on your shoulders maybe having that evening out one to one can help build your relationship back up together and this can be your time to talk to each other on a mature level and maybe this may help him it did wanders for my nephew

in mean time keep your chin up it must be very hard but you will come out the other side

You most definitely need to change your 'therapist'. It's quite ridiculous that this is still going on and so little (if any) progress made. I remember a thread of yours from ages ago about your ds.

The therapist you have at the moment is validating his behaviour and this must stop. Don't waste time talking to the guy about it, just find another therapist and stop using this one.

oh TLE i know you are doing your best with him , & it must be very hard for you to deal with him when he kicks off ,
my ds threatened to punch me last year because i asked him to clean his bedroom , likewise with your ds my son never speaks to dh the way he speaks to me it can be very upsetting , but i really feel me taking a firmer hand with my ds has improved things in my household , i have sat ds down & told him i will treat him more grown up if he acts more grown up iykwim , now he is offering to help unload the dishwasher & clean his room etc without having to be asked (alien abduction ? )
but when he put his fist up to hit me i sent him straight up to his bedroom until dh got home & then we sat him down together & told him we would not tolerate that behaviour , he has never done it since . tbh it shocked ds as much as it shocked me that he raised a fist to me .
tle i just think your ds needs to know that it is unacceptable to hit or threaten to hit you as this could get worse as he gets older , x

"If he wakes up in the morning and he gets to lounge around doing nothing all day, go fishing, or somewhere of his choice then he will be the perfectly behaved polite, nice,well spoken child ever.
If he wakes up and at any point in the day is asked to do something as simple as turn the kettle on then that is a cue for ww300000.
He stays with family and does whatever he is asked, does what DP asks him for the main however when I ask him to do something this is when he kicks off."

and there you have it.

he wants his own way all the time and knows that if he pushes you hard enough he will get it, or at the very least, not have to do what you ask him.

he doesnt do it with anyone else. why? because no one else would tolerate it. you need to show him that you are the parent.

and i dont want you to think i'm being harsh, i feel you are at a point now where straight talking is the only way and i would be doing you no favours by pussyfooting round the issue.

take control of your situation before it gets to the point where it cant be brought back.

No idea what I would have done back then ... but now I'd certainly sell his mobile plus other toys to replace the DS2's toy he broke!

I am going to admit something now...

I don't know how to make him realise I am the parent, he has always had an opinion and when I was on my own with him he had me wrapped round his finger......

KaPe, thankfully it has been replaced!

And he does need his phone for school other wise it would be gone now

i don't think selling his mobile is going to help as he will only resent you for it & try to wind you up even more , definitely i would make him replace ds2 toy that he broke , the next time he gets pocket money ask him to spend that money on a new book for ds2 . that will teach him that he has to take responsibility for his actions .
tle would i be right in thinking that in some way you feel you have to make things up to ds1 because his father is not on the scene ? you need to teach him to respect you , not easy though .

DOES he really NEED his phone for school, Lady ... or is it only more convenient for us parents??? I have a very mature nearly 10-year old, thank God no major problems at the moment (frantically searching for wood), and I am always "bullied" into giving her the things she "needs". What would happen if he didn't have a phone???

give him the phone in the mornings as he leaves for the bus and take it off him when he comes through the door in the evening.

you have to stop trying to make up for his dad walking out. that is the past. nothing you can do will change that. you must move forward. it is no longer an excuse for his behaviour, he just uses it as one.

Booyhoo and BGDC you are both so very right. He knows how to work me iyswim? he blames his fathers absense and I cave in.....Knowing what he does NOW and then remembering that when he is in full swing are 2 different things...I have got to learn to combine them!

KaPe he needs his phone because he travels to and from school alone.

TLE I really feel for you. You must have the patience of a saint!

I have never been in this situation, as tbh I would have snapped/taken action way before hours of this behaviour.

If he behaves for everyone else then I think I would try the following:

Obviously I have no idea what is behind your ds behaviour and he does sound very troubled indeed, however.

I would lavish attention on ds2 as he needs to be rewarded for his good behaviour.

I would be very offhand and avasive towards ds1 eg don't ask him to do anything. Don't offer to take him anywhere. Don't show an interest in what he does.
This will bother him as it is obvious it is you whom he cares most about (otherwise he wouldn't make such an effort to disrespect you).

It might also give you some cooling off time.
He has to learn that bad behavior is not acceptable and there will be consequences, in this case the withdrawl of your attention.

Good luck.

I feel for you and think you did brilliantly to stay calm. I would punish him much earlier on in these meltdowns. Perhaps you and DP could think of a list of appropriate punishments as it can be hard to think straight in the middle.

A great bit of advice I waas given as my ds also has prolonged tantrums is to listen to your ipod so you drown him out. I would also keep a close eye on the younger child so he is not hurt accidentally during one of these rages and give him loads of attention. When the older one is being good give him attention then. I think the psych is a good idea if only to give you support, is this particualr psych good because you can always see someone else.

I would also make him pay for a new book for your little one out of his money or do chores to earn the money to pay for a new one. In fact anything he breaks this could be the rule.

Good luck. It will pass.

Ignoring him isn't working, he just keeps escalating the behaviour - bullying ds2 by breaking his toys or being violent to you.

Do you have wider family and a good relationship with his school? At my Dad's school they brought the whole wider family in, including formidable grandmother, boy's teachers & school police officer together in partnership to deal with a 13yr old who beats up his mother. The head receives emailed reports every week about him. Are your school approachable, LES?

muminthemiddle i think that is quite bad advice.

"i would be very offhand and evasive"

it's the sort of behaviour i would expect from a child and i try to discourage it in my son.

TLES you should be encouraging open discussion. being 'offhand' or 'evasive' will come across as huffing to ds1. far better to tell him honestly how his behaviour made you feel. this will show him that its good to discuss your feelings rather than bottle them up and sulk.

also, while you absolutely should be lavishing attention on your ds2, to do so exclusively would have a detrimental effect on ds1. i think it could be a major part of the problem. younger children require more physical attention than older ones. (changing nappies, bathing, tickling games) your ds1 would feel much worse by seeing this and it would most definitely exacerbate the situation, possibly leading to another outburst.

show ds1 he is loved just as much as ds2. my ds asked me recently if i love him when he is bold. clearly he took my dissapointment as a withdrawal of my love. it upset me greatly to hear this. i explained to him that i always love him but that i dont always like his behaviour. he has now started saying "mummy always loves me, even when i'm bold" (he is 4) he is sure now that i love him no matter what. children need to be assured of your love. whatever you do, dont make your love conditional based on his behaviour.

I agree Booyhoo, muminthemiddle's advice is going to make it the problem worse.

You have to be very firm and consistent and be prepared to be very unpopular. It will not alter his love for you. The problem comes from his knowing that he can wrap you around his finger and he will push the boundries until he gets his own way.
At the age that he is, I think that he old enough to sit down for a serious discussion but it is important that DP is there too. I would even admit to him that in the past he has wrapped you around his little finger but that his behaviour recently was the last straw and it must stop, and it will stop.

I'm still not sure why he needs the phone. People used to manage in the days before the mobile phone! I used to travel 9 miles to school with a bus change and no way of contacting my mother. I suppose it is for your peace of mind-but I would most definitely take it away for the rest of the time.

I would actually give him more time on his own and not less.

i will reply later am about to go to a museum...

What is the situation between ds1 and his dad?
Does he do his fair share of parenting?
I would be inclined, for your own sanity, to leave the 2 of them to spend more time together if possible.
As nothing else is working have you tried this tactic.
I know everyones circumstances are different, but seriously I have never allowed any of my dcs behaviour to get this out of control.
Straight to their room, and my eldest is 12, with the clear message that they have seiously pissed me off and I will not be the loving, doting doormat to be spoken to/abused like that.
My children know they are very loved but equally if my dh came home to be told any of my dcs had treated me like that then there would be hell to pay. A united front is essential.

I would advise you to stop making excuses for his behaviour, by all means talk to him and explain that we all get angry and work out different methods to deal with this.
At the end of the day he needs to know that he cannot treat you and ds2 like this, don't allow him to do it. Stand firm.

massive punishment.

Absolutely MASSIVE.

Like, no pocketmoney for 6 months.

Or 2 weeks confined to his room with no tv or toys, allowed out for meals and school.

Or cancelling a schooltrip.

Or completely removing the mobile phone/tv/playstation/other favourite and selling it, to replace his little brother's toy.

I would come down on this like a ton of bricks.

Of course he wants to be all pally, the sooner he can get you to gloss over it the nicer his life will be. I would NOT be allowing the glossing over.

I don't think TLE ds1 sees his Dad at all, could be wrong though.

To me it just seems as though it is very very very extreme boundary pushing because historically you always caved and he got his own way. That's a lot of years to undo IYSWIM.

I think a good talking to from your partner would work wonders too. Along the lines of "If you DARE treat MY WIFE like that again you will be staying in your room while I stand guard outside your bedroom door, you bad tempered brat!"

Also for the next 6 months he would be getting his way on ABSOLUTELY NOTHING as a matter of principal. So if asks for red socks, he gets black. If he wants sausages for dinner, he gets chicken.

You need to exert your authority over this child hard and fast, because he is rapidly approaching the age where you won't be able to do it without his consent.

What one earth did he shout about all that time ? Mine would be in his room on his won until he was civil.

Agree does he really need a phone , I realise you have had previous concerns about school but perhaps you need to be less anxious to make him so. Who was the museum, trip for , ostensibly it sounds like you are continuing to indulge him depsite his poor behaviour sending a very mixed message.

You say he has no SN but his behaviour indicates some level of anger and impulsiveness which is not nt and iirc this goes back years. You need to support to deal with his aggression before he becomes too big for you to handle. He may be beyond the point of controlling it as he believes. Call the psych tomorrow and describe your day, lay it on thick he was destructive and frightening, to you , to ds2 and probably even to himself Good luck