What would YOU do in this situation?

[TheLadyEvenstar]

Ok so yesterday ds1 was home early from school. I had planned to take ds1 and ds2 to the indoor play. I asked ds1 to help me get things sorted out and for him to pick the 3 things off the floor that needed picking up. He said no and immediatly started shouting at me.

I ignored him but he would not let up.
This went on from 10am until 7pm last night. I did not shout at him or raise to the bait in any way other than to say "If you don't do as I ask I will take one of your toys away" which i ended up doing.

He then started screaming and shouting even louder so I took his mobile phone away. I had it in my hand and he went to grab it. Obviously being bigger than him I just stood up and he repeatedly jumped up grabbing my arm, I still never reacted - it took a lot not to I will admit.

After 25 minutes of him trying to grab his phone he went to hit me at which point I grabbed his arm and told him if he did hit me not only would I slap him I would be calling the police.

I know I was wrong to threaten to slap him, even though I did not shout it was wrong.

I took his phone and hid it because otherwise he would have kept taking it back.

When i came back in the living room he was going right into one throwing all the clothes (off washing airer) onto the floor, DS2's toys everywhere, he shoved ds2 over, and then grabbed the book ds2 had been playing with (an interactive one) and started slamming it into the ground until it broke.

DS2 kept trying to get it to work and saying "oh bwoke" he is just 2 yrs old. today he keeps looking for it.

What would you do in this situation? I am amazed at myself that I kept a cool calm head yesterday, but today he wants to be my best friend and he seems to have forgotten what happened yesterday. He is 11 BTW. Has no SN, has been seeing a child psychologist for the last 5 months who now agrees that to DS1 this is a game. He has spoken to him in great length and DS1 is so brazen with his statements of "I know what I am doing and can stop but I don't want to I am not bored with this yet".

TBH I know I haveposted on here numerous times about his behaviour and it has appeared I have not listened to advice but I have taken all on board, tried all the different methods suggested, and taken away from the threads that sometimes I over react. Yesterday I did not I really kept a calm head.

Do you know what, TLE. I really don't think your DS is playing games. I think he is trying to get a reaction from you, any way he can, to reassure himself that no matter how 'bad' he is, you still love him.

But love isn't about (just) cuddles and kisses. It is about boundaries & safety. He crossed a line.

I think the things that stick out for me, is that you say he started disobeying you at 10am, and at 6pm you took the phone. You need to crack down, but be clear. When you first asked him to pick up those three items, and he said no, you needed to say "DS, I want you to pick those up, or I will do x". Remind him he has 3 chances. Once those are up, x. No compromise, no discussion. Deed done.

To be dancing around the room holding a phone up high is something that an older sibling does to stop a younger sibling getting the item. They don't have any authority, so they are using their height to get what they want. You just say no.

Lou I had given him the option of picking the 3 things up or losing a toy, as he didn't he lost the toy. The phone was taken when he continued the antics.

I do agree that I need to put more boundaries in place and this is where I need to get the CP on side or to stop coming.
He continually tells me in front of ds1 that I need to let him go off and do his own thing, let him make his own decisions and mistakes etc. now while this is partly right there is noway I am going to allow a just 11 yr old to wander the streets until he feels ready to come back, or to walk the streets in the area we live in. especially when we are only up the road from where a 10 yr old boy was stabbed and lost his life, Maybe I am over cautious.

It does seem very siblingish the way i was standing with his phone up above my head and I could have dealt with it better. Hopefully I will be able to in future having realised that.

does he know you've deleted his dad's phone number from his phone? if not i expect that will really antagonise him, especially as you've done it with other punishments.

you say he knows you love him, but how does he know that love is unconditional? does he think you love him when you throw his toys away? you tell him his behaviour is unacceptable but then punish him by doing the same to him. he throws his brothers toys, so you throw his. he ignores your requests, so you ignore his. how are you demostrating the right behaviour?

Ruddy, He knows I have deleted the number. It was done Saturday when everything was calm and we were talking. I explained to him that because I love him I could not allow him to be continually hurt by his father either not replying or replying with nasty comments. I also asked him what he felt the best thing to do was and he said "Get me a new phone number because I don't want him contacting me anymore".

I threw his toy away after repeatdly asking him to do what i had asked he refused he was warned that if he continued to ignore me I would throw the toy away his answer had been "well we both know you won't do that dont we" because in the past i have said it and not done it.

He broke ds2's book because I took his phone. While he was trying to get it back he was fine, because he thought i was going to hand it back. Once i took it out the room and put it out of his sight he got really mad and broke the book.

I have no ignored his requests, just his screaming.

I am beginning to see Borderline Perosnality Disorder traits here. There's a book called something like 'I hate you, I want you back'

It's about adult couplings really but it is relevant perhaps.

You cannot purge the pain from your souls by deleting numbers and destroying posessions.

I think you need some serious counselling on dealing with relationship dynamics and woudl recommend finding someone who perhaps has an interest in Trasactional Analysis. I am starting to see that you really do genuinely have massive gaps in your own capabilities when it comes to interraction with others and so what may seem common sense to many of us here is like Double Dutch to you.

That must be hard. If you let down your defenses then you can fix this. Though it is possible the CP is a bad apple, I think more likely you are misconstruing his words and also becoming defensive over the change he is steering you toward.

hobgoblin I do not have a BPD. I deleted the number because i am sick of a grown man hurting My son. He is a child and a 40 yr old man should know better than to send the text messages he has done.

I don't need counselling for dealing with the dynamics of relationships. How do I have gaps in my capabilities I am able to interact with many people from many walks of life both adults and children alike. Nothing that anyone has said is "double dutch" to me. However, You know your children and I know mine. I know that if i give him his own way all the time then he will be a perfectly well behaved child but because I have rules and he has chores he acts up, using whatever excuse he can to be blamed whether it be wanting a new games console, watching tv or his father.

The CP on one of his first visits told DS1 that he didn't need to do his chores if he didn't want to. DS1 heard it along with my mum and sister as well as me....nothing misconstrued there trust me. He has not suggested anything other than letting him do what he wants when he wants to. Which is why in 20 minutes he will be here while ds1 is still at school so I can talk to him.

Borderline personality disorder (BPD) is a serious mental illness characterized by pervasive instability in moods, interpersonal relationships, self-image, and behavior. This instability often disrupts family and work life, long-term planning, and the individual's sense of self-identity

I have none of the above,

BPD may experience intense bouts of anger, depression, and anxiety that may last only hours, or at most a day.5 These may be associated with episodes of impulsive aggression, self-injury, and drug or alcohol abuse

Nor these

Distortions in cognition and sense of self can lead to frequent changes in long-term goals, career plans, jobs, friendships, gender identity, and values. Sometimes people with BPD view themselves as fundamentally bad, or unworthy

nope

They may feel unfairly misunderstood or mistreated, bored, empty, and have little idea who they are. Such symptoms are most acute when people with BPD feel isolated and lacking in social support, and may result in frantic efforts to avoid being alone.

Nope

People with BPD often have highly unstable patterns of social relationships. While they can develop intense but stormy attachments, their attitudes towards family, friends, and loved ones may suddenly shift from idealization (great admiration and love) to devaluation (intense anger and dislike). Thus, they may form an immediate attachment and idealize the other person, but when a slight separation or conflict occurs, they switch unexpectedly to the other extreme and angrily accuse the other person of not caring for them at all. Even with family members, individuals with BPD are highly sensitive to rejection, reacting with anger and distress to such mild separations as a vacation, a business trip, or a sudden change in plans. These fears of abandonment seem to be related to difficulties feeling emotionally connected to important persons when they are physically absent, leaving the individual with BPD feeling lost and perhaps worthless. Suicide threats and attempts may occur along with anger at perceived abandonment and disappointments.

People with BPD exhibit other impulsive behaviors, such as excessive spending, binge eating and risky sex. BPD often occurs together with other psychiatric problems, particularly bipolar disorder, depression, anxiety disorders, substance abuse, and other personality disorders.

Nor any of those "traits"

Not knowing the best way forward other than to come down on ds1 like a ton of bricks and remove everything until he stops with the attitude and tantrums are not traits of BPD.

I'm not diagnosing you.

Do you see the love/hate dynamic?

Do you see the impulsive behaviour exhibited on both sides?

Do you see how you relive the hurt of the relationship breakdown and put your DS in control of managing the associated disappointmenrs?

Why are you not managing the reality? You seem to ask him for the answers regarding what to do about his father instead of discussing his feelings and then guiding him.

You ask him for the way forward instead of leading him, taking his opinion into account.

But as ever, if you know best then you don't need anyone else's insight be that mumsnetters or Child Psychologist.

i think trying to 'fit' someone into a disorder is dangerous.

bpd needs to be diagnosed properly,as do other disorders.

I mention traits of BPD rather than trying to provide a diagnosis!

On the other hand what do I have is a child who for too long has been given too much of his own way as i felt bad that his father did not want to know him. But a few weeks ago I decided I was not going to feel guilty any longer and so i stepped up the mark for him to stop with the whinging whining and tantrums. since then he has gotten worse which is to be expected. As I said I have started carrying through with the threats/warnings, whatever you want to call them and he hates it. So of course everything is escalating. If that means I have BPD then so be it otherwise my only option is to continue giving him his own way and let him get away with everything which I am not prepared to do. I started this thread to see what others would do in the situation i described not be personally attacked and told i have a need for serious counselling. which for what it is worth i have no need for for anything other than strategy ideas for dealing with ds1.

Now he and I could do with counselling/mediation to help him understand that when he is angry/upset he cannotlash out at me and that me ignoring him is not done out of nastiness but out of sheer exhaustion of dealing with these out bursts. Which unless you live with it day in day out you cannot really comment on.

Er, hang on I'm not labelling you potty. But you gotta acknowledge you lack the skills to deal with the situation. if this were merely parenting tool shortage then sure go on a parenting course but this is so emotional it is deeper than that imo. Hence, I reckon counselling would be good for you too.

Relationship breakdown does damage to all of us.

I have been in a refuge and part of my stabilsing myself after that experience was receiving counselling just for me. It is routine procedure.

You have a big thing to deal with here having a father to a beloved child of yours that does not want to know and love that child. You also have the abuse and hurt caused by your son to deal with. Can you admit to a need for some healing work just for you, i.e. counselling?

Don't misquote me, please.

also,seeing 'gaps' in someones capabilities??

its the internet,not real life!! this is when MN starts to get dangerous...people telling people stuff like this when they aren't personally even known to them.

having said that,through lurking on your threads tles,i can see many posters are frustrated with you!!

hobgoblin...counselling is NOT routine procedure for someon who has been in refuges!! where did you get that from?

Look TLES there is no getting away from the fact that whatever it is you are doing, it isn't working.

I really really suggest you look into getting some family therapy - you, your partner, and your DS need to find ways of managing the dynamics and behaviour patterns here. Ok, you say your DS is seeing a child psychologist but tbh that doesn't seem to be helping, and it isn't addressing the fact that you also need to make changes in the way you relate to him.

Good luck.

x-posted

I can see the impulsiveness on ds1's part yes. I was not impulsive in removing and throwing the toys away he had had the "rules" and "consequences" laid out for him a fortnight ago when he broke my mobile. As a result he knew that in the first instance I would remove a toy and if it continued then I would throw a toy. which is what I did.

I don't relive the hurt,I don't want him to turn out like his father, but I bet there are many women the world over who feel like this.

Thats the problem he has had too many opinions on things so he thinks he rules he roost so to speak.

I do ask him what he wants etc, why he feels the way he does and his answers rarely vary

Sorry for the delay in replying the CP has just left and ds1 has just come in....the literally crossed each other at the door. So I will read the replies prior to mine and sorry for the x-posting, did not mean to send last post as 1 it was not finished and 2 i hadn't read all replies.

how is he settling in at his new school? he has a lot going on atm

Even I am not surprised you have become defensive. Your child has become profoundly difficult because you feel guilty, and the guilt leads you to become inconsistent because you are making excuses for him.

What that does is stop him taking responsibility for what he is doing. He knows the story, he is not stupid, and he thinks he has an excuse for the way he behaves.

Obviously, he doesn't. There are many children who have suffered relationship breakdowns and worse who don't behave like this.

He needs to know you don't feel guilty any more. There are no excuses any more.

Even, you know all this. But you are talking and talking and talking about it and you need to do it. I think seeing someone would help, not because you have any kind of disorder, which I think is a bit to suggest, but because you plainly struggle with resolution. Gawd knows you are not the only mother in the world to do this. Stop over thinking it. Basic rules, basic punishments and stick to them.

You may need someone outside keeping the score so that you do stick to the rules you've laid down for yourselves. If that someone is your partner it could lead to disagreement which will be picked up on.

hobb I said a while back that counselling would be a good idea and especially for both of us now.

Relationship breakdowns do cause damage and I would agree to the extent of having a lack of trust towards my DP there is the damage. Maybe the "damage" with ds1 is that I want to keep him so safe and happy I have completely indulged him and now am paying the price... a long road to unwind as far as I am concerned.

PTS

I said I "Stepped up the Mark" not up to the mark.meaning I upped the consequences. I was not talking about myself fgs, I was talking about what I had done.
With regard to explaining the death of my dad to him he was 5 1/2 yrs old and it was done in a way he would understand. Initially he had over heard the word cancer and asked what it was. I felt it was better for him to have an explanation in terms he would understand rather than wonder....there are some good books and websites for information and i used them. I didn't just say "grandad died of cancer get on with it"

The CP arrived here at 16.27 he was late as he had come from visiting someone else.

QOFE I agree that it is not working and this is the discussion I have just had with the CP. I explained that I felt regardless of the steps I was following with ds1, on his suggestions that we were not making any progress. He has spoken at length about wht he feels the next steps are, and some of them I agreed with...some I didn't. The ones I didn't agree with were having a day out and if he did not do as he was asked leaving him indoors alone while the rest of us go, to me that would make him feel he is not wanted, which is not what i want to do.

I do need to make changes in the way i relate to him and have started doing so which is where we first encountered problems because instead of treating him as an equal i started treating him as the child he is and he dislikes it.

Family Therapy is a good idea and it is something I brought up with the CP previously but I have an appt with my GP on friday about something unrelated so willtalk to him about it.

bigchris he is loving his new school, he does 3 different activities - fencing, chess, and bike mantainence during the extended school days. He is happy and thats a good sign.

stuffit I never became defensive, please show me where I have???
I also think that talking to someone is a good idea, it cannot do any harm, as i said above I will ask GP about it on Friday. You are right I have spent too long making excuses, and not taking action, which is why after i had taken action on Friday I asked what others would have done to get opinions not anything else. It is interesting to see how others would deal with things and also to take from those ideas.

oh that's good he likes his new school I take it you got all his uniform in time?

Bigchris I did, I picked some bits up from various places! Including the Upper school where they had p.e tracksuit from a child that had left....just required some alterations by me and now they are a perfect fit.