Is smacking always bad?

[Muon]

I have two boys, both very young, and have been to playgroups where older children often behave quite violently towards other children. These children seem to have no idea of the hurt they are causing.
If a child is smacked (once they've been told it's going to happen if they don't change their behaviour and obviously not hard enough to cause a bruise) then they get the idea that physical pain is a punishment. If they don't know what it feels like how do they know what they are doing to other people? It seems to come naturally to children to try hitting as a way of expressing frustration at an age when they're not capable of verbal reasoning, so an adult giving them a smack to control their behaviour at that age wouldn't seem unreasonable.
I believe that most children start out basically nice and, when they get to the stage where they understand other people have feelings too, they won't want to inflict something they see as a punishment without due cause.
I know this message is very nonPC but I also know some people agree, although to actually smack a child in public runs the high risk of abuse from other people. Can the choice to smack or not be accepted as a parenting choice without interference from other people?

Oh gosh. I'm sorry if you were being serious. Always need to remind myself that real people are at the other ends of these typed conversations.

I've not read Atkins' book to be truthful, my parenting has all be done off the hoof. Her newspapers columns are mostly truisms and common sense, which perhaps are more useful than anything else to many people. So it could well be worth a go.

For goodness sake don't beat yourself up over smacking your child. Kids are rather more resilient than that. If you ever do lose it, don't make a deal of it.

IMO there is no "right" or "wrong" on this issue, do what works best for you. I found a smack to the wrist or bottom to be most effective with truculent toddlers (and I think I had fewer difficulties at this age than my peers), once my kids get to school age it is more of a "nuclear" option for un-repentant and extremely bad behaviour, and such is rarely if ever used.

I was being serious only to a point, so no worries there.

But thank you re Atkins as I have not come across her before and am now quite fascinated reading some of her stuff.

I was also thankful you had actually given me something intellectual and useful to ponder not a regurgitation of most of the previous comments.

I haven't really used mumsnet before and am pretty stressed out with things these days, so yes probably am more serious about things than I really should be ....

GrumpyYoungFogey .. thank goodness for you tonight, of all the people that could have posted after me I am glad it was you ....

I said I'd left, but since you've asked me a direct question ....

First, I know how hard it is. I had a toddler and a baby. Toddler did not like walking either, and was prone to fits of violence to his little brother. I was sorely tempted to smack him many times, but that would have been me just venting my frustration.

I had a buggy board, and that helped. Some toddlers don't like to walk, some walk very slowly. If you don't have a buggy board, I would let him walk, but then as soon as he plays up, he goes straight in the buggy. You then tell him that if he can't walk nicely, he has to go in the buggy.

Or, you put him in the buggy to begin with and tell him that if he behaves, he can have a sticker on his coat when he gets there (actually, you could try this with walking as well).

Just one idea. And i know you think you can't trust him ever, but you will be able to.

If you let him get what he wants for poking his sister in the eye, then he'll keep doing it.

I am sorry if I have come over as unsympathetic on this thread, it was not my intention. I said earlier how hard I found the toddler years. But I can't pretend I find smacking acceptable, because I don't.

This is a helpful book about toddlers, by Tanya Byron, who is a Clinical Psychologist and mother:

www.amazon.co.uk/Little-Angels-Essential-Transforming-Children/dp/056351941X/ref=pd_sim_b_2

I'm so sorry you are not getting the support you need, and I know that there are many people out there like you who are facing challenges much greater than I did/do.

I don't know much about autism, and I don't know about the evidence you refer to, so I don't know if my stance is the same. My instinct is still to say that smacking should be avoided.

I don't know what else to say really. Have you accessed any support from the SN boards ?

No, I know, it's not just about smacking. I don't actually think (and I said this earlier), that smacking is necessarily to worst thing you can do to a child, depending on how it is done, over the course of a child's life (neglect, verbal abuse, can be worse).

Most of us are just doing our best with what we've got. I went through a stage of shouting a lot, which I felt was out of control. So I got some help with that. I know I'm not perfect.

Gotta go now. Tea to make .

CarrieBo's description of smacking her daughter made me feel physically sick too.

Vivia That's not the most helpful post at the end of a long and quite insightful discussion into smacking versus other methods of discipline. You are, of course entitled to your opinion, but it's a shame you couldn't qualify it with anything more enlightening in the general discussion.

Jamie Thanks for all you've posted. It's been really refreshing to read posts from someone who listens/reads what the "other side" is saying/writing. I know we'll probably not convince you and vice versa but the tone of debate has been really pleasant to read, mostly because of your calm attitude. Thanks

Starlight - /hugs/ you sound like you're doing a really great job w/ a difficult situation - and its great to see you reaching out rather than lashing out (also great to see the thoughtful and supportive responses)

I realise that your example is an example and not the only tough situation where smacking seems the only workable option but I have a couple of "I wonder's..." relating to that scenario...

• is it just the walk that your ds dislikes? I mean, does he enjoy preschool once he arrives? Of course socializing is important (for him and you!) but it may be that preschool doesn't suit his personality/condition and other socialising might be more rewarding for him (hopefully making him more amenable to walking there)?

• is there something (other than stickers) that you could make a reward? Sometimes making a bit of a game of it (hop skip jump / 10 steps and pull a face at each other / etc) can help (esp w/ shorter attention spans) because it gives constant reward - rather than something you have to wait for - and distracts for the disliked activity (i.e. walking there) at the same time.

Will keep thinking but thats my 2 cents off the top of my head.

Arcadie Thankyou - I do like to keep it civil wherever possible ....

Starlight - I'm not one of the "smacking is ALWAYS bad" brigade and I thnk that since the method you've developed isn't abuse and works then it's ok... I wish I could think of something more helpful but on top of it being a diffuclt question, I have a bad dose of flu (hence the tardy reply - sorry!)

I think the issue most people have with smacking is that a.) there is SOOOO much room for abuse (and the difference isn't as clear cut as good mums think!) and b.) it encourages lazy parenting - people just smack without really working out what is wrong or trying to find a positive solution...

But you don't seem in any danger of falling into either of those traps... as a.) your tap method barely even qualifies as physical and isn't painful or anywhere close to abusive and b.) you're trying other things and looking at all the options and proactively seeking help...

...keep trying rewards and distractions and eventually he'll get there (and won't that be cause for celebration!)... in the mean time, you are doing a good job and I just wish I could help!!

I have a relative whose ds (now 22!) has asd, and I vaguely remember some talk about similar issues so I will get on to her and see if she has any tips and get back to you if she does.

All the best!

If smacking is ok, then what is the age range it is ok for ??

I mean noone would ever suggest hitting a newborn, so is 9 months ok ?! Or not needed, or not ok until the baby is walking? Around 18 mth ? ?!?

Also when is too old ?( if u agree it is ok) Is 10 or 13 too old ? What about if your teenager is naughty or steals something from you when aged, say 16 or 19 ??

Someone asked me this same question about what "age range is ok" for smacking, and it really helped me to decide my view on smacking.

Also, once my 6 year old hit her younger brother who's 2 for annoying her. Immediately after that, her younger sister copied her and hit their brother in exactly the same way. It made me think of how children always copy waht they see.

Intereseted in what anyone else thinks of these ???