Is smacking always bad?

[Muon]

I have two boys, both very young, and have been to playgroups where older children often behave quite violently towards other children. These children seem to have no idea of the hurt they are causing.
If a child is smacked (once they've been told it's going to happen if they don't change their behaviour and obviously not hard enough to cause a bruise) then they get the idea that physical pain is a punishment. If they don't know what it feels like how do they know what they are doing to other people? It seems to come naturally to children to try hitting as a way of expressing frustration at an age when they're not capable of verbal reasoning, so an adult giving them a smack to control their behaviour at that age wouldn't seem unreasonable.
I believe that most children start out basically nice and, when they get to the stage where they understand other people have feelings too, they won't want to inflict something they see as a punishment without due cause.
I know this message is very nonPC but I also know some people agree, although to actually smack a child in public runs the high risk of abuse from other people. Can the choice to smack or not be accepted as a parenting choice without interference from other people?

WW our three are exactly the same, hard bloody work unless we exercise the legs off them pretty much every day and watch their diets like hawks.
My parents are always going on about how much naughtier children are today but I think a lot of it is down to junk food, lack of freedom to roam and burn energy.

Pitchounette - no it won't make any difference. Even if smacking was banned outright there would still (sadly) be children dying from physical abuse because the fuckwits they have as parents really have no ounce of common sense.

All the posters on here who have admitted smacking say that it's on very extreme and occasional circumstances and it's probably one or two smacks on the hand or bottom. That doesn't make them bad parents and no-where in the league of those who would abuse a child to death.

Smacking is always, always wrong.

I am against smacking as I said in my earlier post

I remember a thread a few years ago about whether you would allow your child to hit another child back for hitting them first(along them lines), a very interesting thread, would this apply also to what the OP was asking, just an after thought..

Message withdrawn

I personally see no excuse to hit a child. It is very unevolved IMO. How can you teach a child that violence is wrong when you use violence against them?

This is the law on smacking children

voluptua i agree with you, i dont think endless lines or being sent out of a room are good methods of discipline. i think they are a good method of the teacher not dealing with the problem infront of them.

i think the odd smack is fine

battering is not

Starlight - plenty of adults can't be reasoned with but we don't go around hitting them do we ?

Boooo Most teachers set lines as the punishment following a good talking to about what the actual issue is and send the child out to have time to reflect on behaviour and to stop the whole class being distrupted, alone no they aren't brilliant but they tend to be used as part of the process.

absoloutely milly and that is the important part of discipline, the child needs to be made aware of what behaviour was wrong and why it was wrong, also that there is a consequence for the action, eg; if you are disruptive you will be removed from the class.and that an apology is required. but it is when a child is sent out of a room without having had the explanation that the punishment becomes damaging to the child and merely and avoidance method for the teacher.

very, very sorry for posting then leaving - poorly DS1 woke up early, then baby woke up, etc etc. Thanks for all your posts, particularly Northernlurker and Bloss as it does seem those who can see the point of smacking get an emotional roasting from non-smackers. Voluptua I had also wondered when not smacking became the most common view and whether it had any links to yobs etc, although I do think it's probable that there are lots of factors involved.
My DS1 has just turned 2 and does not really understand verbal reasoning or the naughty step. He wouldn't notice if you took a toy away as he'd just play with something else. I think distraction is more of a reward for being naughty - he needs to know he has boundaries and any discipline needs to be immediate. He carries on with naughty bahaviour sometimes like he thinks it's a game. I think I will try my very best never to smack him as a loss of control, but I may (as a last resort) warn him that he'll get a smack if he carries on, then give a smack on the wrist if he does carry on. I know lots of you won't agree but I do think it's my choice how to discipline my child.

PS what's a troll?

What I have seen of a smacking ban suggests it did not turn parents into helpless pawns in the hands of their brattish offspring; it made people think about their whole attitude towards discipline. If anything it made them firmer and more consistent from the start, because they knew they wouldn't be able to extricate themselves with the threat of a smack.

Here I seem to see so many parents who sit back and ignore a child who starts building up to naughtiness, do not remove the toy he is banging against his friend's head, let him run up and down the bus etc, but then yell and threaten smacks when the situation gets out of hand. It would be so much easier to interact with them from the start. My absolute pet hate is the parent who does not sit next to their 3yo on the bus, does not interact with them, lets them run riot, and then smacks when they get out of hand. And then smacks again because the first smack had no effect. And then again...

It is not necessarily the case that smacking will stop undesirable behaviour. I have seen no evidence around here that children who get smacked regularly are actually better behaved. Perhaps it happens elsewhere but it's not the case in this neighbourhood- not even immediately after the smack, when you might expect it.

Muon. I have so far managed to raise 2 boys to age 9 and 6 without using smacking as a disciplinary tool, and believe me, one of them was/is a real boundary pusher.

Absolutely your choice, but I think you take the easy way out if you smack.

A troll is someone who deliberately starts a controversial topic just to stir people up. They often don't believe it to be true themselves, they just like to see passions aroused!

Muon My last post was a bit blunt. I do not want to sound unsympathetic. I personally found the toddler years very difficult and infuriating at times, but there are other ways, and nothing works straight away. It is a slow drip drip of messages getting through.

I agree with cory's lazy parenting explanation. Being a parent is hard. If you want a toddler to behave on a bus you have to talk to them, sing songs, generally amuse. They will misbehave if you ignore because they are bored-it is then only left to smack because it is too late to have done what you should have done in the first place. From the DCs point of view they have also done what they set out to do-get your attention. Some DCs would rather get attention for bad behaviour than no attention.
The other reason, more understandable, is that the parent gets frustrated, it can be difficult to deal with a contrary toddler who won't listen to reason and you can get drawn down to the 2 yr old level in the heat of the moment, it is best to walk away and count to ten and start again.

Wow, its been a busy 24hrs on this thread!

Thank you to those (who do or don't know me) who stood up for me in my absence!

I think we all agree here that lashing out and hitting your kids is abhorrent - the bus example is an excellent one. I see kids round here all the time who are promised 'a good hiding' for what is usually low-level silliness or attention seeking because its the only way to get noticed.
Stories of being beaten with a belt by a teacher, or left sobbing in a bedroom with angry welts on your leg from a violent outburst by a parent make me so too. I agree that a sudden smack from nowhere shows loss of control by a parent, which is why staying calm is an important part of our smacking, to show that we haven't lost control. I think being yelled at would be way more scary for kids.

DH and I have talked about our parenting, and how we'll respond when (not if!) our kids misbehave. So yes, our smacks are planned, but not in a 'at 3pm today I'm going to take dd for a beating'. We know, and she knows, that if she is persistently disobedient despite warnings, opportunities to change behaviour, distraction etc, then she will get a smack. In the words of NorthernLurker, "She has boundaries and when she oversteps them she has a predictable consequence. What's scary about that?". Its not a cold walk of shame we go on, we just nip to the next room as we think smacking in front of other children heaps shame on the discipline. And its not a beating that leaves her sobbing and wondering if she's loved, its a short sharp hand to the backside. Saying sorry and having cuddles afterwards is a very important part of it. She knows she's totally loved and secure. Maybe she would respond well to just the chat without the smack - I'm prepared to give it a go and see if that works. I suspect it won't because she'll think that she's getting a reward of a nice chat with mummy, but I'm happy to be proved wrong.

I can't actually remember the last time i smacked dd, we do distraction and naughty step and try and nip things in the bud early on. Similary with things like toy sharing we try to teach sharing and your-turn-their-turn-see-you'll-get-it-back. I believe we have realistic expectations of what our children are capable of understanding. Recently she's been very into doing drawing and getting really frustrated and verging on tantrums because her pictures don't come out as she wants. Would I smack for that tantrum? Of course not! We spend more quality time practicing drawing together, and I love the tickling/blowing in face reaction to tantrums too.

I'm not saying our way is the only right way, the OP (whoever they may be) asked if smacking is always wrong, and I'm saying no I don't think it always is. I don't have perfect children, but we do have children who are lavished with love and affection and are very secure (and delightful so I'm told ), but "they have boundaries and when they overstep them they have predictable consequences. What's scary about that?"

Nap time over again and I'm late for our playdate with Arcadie!

I suspect it won't because she'll think that she's getting a reward of a nice chat with mummy, but I'm happy to be proved wrong.

Thanks for coming back Carrie, and responding to the point I made about the smack maybe not being necessary. You have well thought-out, consistent and calm strategies which is, I suspect, why they seem to be working.

I take your point about being rewarded by you talking to her, but what I would do in the situation is send her to her room so she loses out on the fun others are having (if she cannot behave socially then she misses out on socialising for a few minutes - the punishment), THEN go and speak to her.

You don't say how old she is.

I know that some people will now come on and have a go about "exclusion and isolation", but I would consider it a more logical and fitting punishment for antisocial behaviour.

So you just hit them do you ? starlight What a ridiculous logic.

I have smacked DD1's hand once when she went through a phase of running away towards traffic. I tried talking, naughty step, removing toys and eventually smacked the back of her hand after she headed for a bus on a busy road in Glasgow. She was 2.5 at the time and liked being chased. I got the fright of my life and suspect that's why I did it. I felt guilty for ages until I realised she'd never done it again. Thank god!

You can't do that with a child who can't be reasoned with.

Yes you can. You can take a small toddler who is behaving aggressively and put then on the floor at your feet and ignore them for a couple of minutes.

You can leave the room or step away from a tantrumming toddler to calm yourself

You can send an older child to their room to calm down and think about why you are angry with them.

All different strategies for different children/situations

Or, you can attempt to avoid the situation in the first place with a "naughty" toddler - by avoiding certain activities when they are tired/hungry, by putting reins on a child who tends to run off, or teaching them if they do, they will be put back in a buggy. So many ways without smacking.

Looking after toddlers is bloody hard. I am very glad I am past that bit.
I have smacked in anger myself - both times when my son bit me hard and I felt powerless, angry and hurt. Many of this have done this at one time or another, and feel bad afterwards.

This is a long way from thinking that smacking is an OK "strategy"