Is smacking always bad?

[Muon]

I have two boys, both very young, and have been to playgroups where older children often behave quite violently towards other children. These children seem to have no idea of the hurt they are causing.
If a child is smacked (once they've been told it's going to happen if they don't change their behaviour and obviously not hard enough to cause a bruise) then they get the idea that physical pain is a punishment. If they don't know what it feels like how do they know what they are doing to other people? It seems to come naturally to children to try hitting as a way of expressing frustration at an age when they're not capable of verbal reasoning, so an adult giving them a smack to control their behaviour at that age wouldn't seem unreasonable.
I believe that most children start out basically nice and, when they get to the stage where they understand other people have feelings too, they won't want to inflict something they see as a punishment without due cause.
I know this message is very nonPC but I also know some people agree, although to actually smack a child in public runs the high risk of abuse from other people. Can the choice to smack or not be accepted as a parenting choice without interference from other people?

"You can take a small toddler who is behaving aggressively and put then on the floor at your feet and ignore them for a couple of minutes."

[snort] Yes, because an aggressive toddler is going to stay there and be ignored.

Starlight and TrickorTreat

All the things I mention above have happened to me

Yes, putting DS1 on the floor would not have worked. But it did work for DS2

DS1 had mega-tantrums- 30 minute extravaganzas. Actually nothing I did seemed to make a difference except for keeping calm (something I struggled to do). But smacking him would have made it worse : "You can't control your emotions and behaviour and neither can I "

Both mine did the throwing on the floor trick. DS1 did it once when I was 8 months pg and couldn't lift him. I just left him there until it passed. I considered getting a sign saying "tantrum in progress" to hold up for these occasions to satisfy the judgy people walking past.

Bribery was used on more than one occasion. Distraction.

I don't have all the answers and what works for one child won't for another. I thought I knew it all when I had DS1 because he was very gentle. DS2 used to try and hit or bite anyone that moved for a while. It was a phase.

I just don't think smacking is the answer. Snort all you like.

Of course, if you are a very small parent or have back trouble, you might be flummoxed by a child that throws itself down on the floor and refuses to get into the buggy. But most adults are actually strong enough to pick up a 2yo and carry them out to the buggy- it's just a question of a few basic grips to avoid getting kicked or bitten. Practice makes perfect

Smacking is not illegal in England. I think it is in NZ and Scotland, am I correct ? but it isn't here.
Smacking, regularly, could possibly be argued to be abuse. depending on the circumstances, build up etc.

But generally it is not considered to be abuse.
If it was social services would be inundated with calls. I know lots of people, in the school playground and from my Pn group who have smacked their children. a few have done it a few times. a few have done it many times and still do, occasionally.

But I think the MN consensus, is that it is abhorrent. But I am not sure that MN is reflective of RL. I have 2 friends , my closest friend (not my best friend) and my sil who think it is nigh on abuse and have never ever done it. but they are only 2.
I think across the nation, outside of MN, alot more smacking goes on than people realise.

But as I said, it is not illegal. and unless abuse is proven it is no more than a parenting style choice, that you may not agree with, but can not do much more than that about. I think.

There's a good book called Playful Parenting which I found recently and would have been useful for when mine were toddlers

Strictly, if you don't mind my saying so, I would never have expected the naughty step or removing toys to work with a 2yo running towards traffic anyway, because there would naturally be a time delay between cause and effect and such young children have a short attention span. I would have gone for reins or a backpack with reins or sticking her in the buggy.

Though I can't say it sounds horrendously upsetting that you smacked her the once in shock.

Oblomov, when I was talking about a smacking ban, I was referring to the one introduced in Sweden in the 90s. The only thing that is illegal here is smacking hard enough to leave a mark.

In my toddler group, I was pretty well the only parent who did not smack. I was inclined to be open-minded from the start (accepting of different cultures and so on and so forth), but now I have seen how often it encourages lazy parenting, and that is something I have less and less patience with.

cory I agree. Sometimes it is just a question of avoiding certain situations and not having too-high expectations of a toddler.

Like Jamie-torch, I struggled with those things listed, and never smacked. Not all smacking starts at toddlerhood. Mine was later with a very stubborn child pushing boundaries.

tbh naughty step never worked with Ds2 who is 4, he would just jump off and run
I now send him to his room and to lie on his bed and think about what he has done, this usually works, only the past 6 months I have had to do this, before that he was generally a good toddler( never had the terrible two's)I think it depends what fits in best with you and your child without resorting to smacking
timeout
naughty step
taking privliges(ime that only worked as they get older)

dd was an absolute angel till she reached 12(she has well and trully made up for it now)so never a need for naughty step, time out, I think I only ever told her off once

ds1(now 14) I smacked in temper once and regretted it, felt ashamed(he has adhd and he smashed up in his temper our brand new decorated hallway)this was roughly about the time they were changing his medication

Oblomov You are right - older children can say truly vile things and I have itched to smack mine at times in anger.

hana I wonder what sort of smacking the research referred to? I should imagine that a child whose only attention is a wallop for misbehaviour would repeat their naughtiness as sometimes any attention is better than no attention. Having smacked my dd, I've really seen a change in her behaviour as if she heads down the road of willful disobedience (that's what we smack for) then I tell her that the consequence of that ongoing behaviour will be a smack. Loads of times she has stopped and changed her behaviour, showing that she's fully aware and in total control. The fact that we can reason with her has helped (she's 2.5 btw). If she's not playing nicely then taking her away from the toys/people is a much better strategy, I agree, and that's what we do.

Cory - we were parked at the front door of the cafe we were in so no need for reins or a buggy which we would usually have had. She pulled her hand from mine and ran off while I had DD2 in her car seat in my other hand. She just likes being chased and the minute I ran after her she ran laughing. Very confusing for her and frightening for me.

I am one of 9 children and my mum smacked all of us quite a bit!! Guess what....not one of us is violent or agressive, never been involved with the police, all of us are relatively well rounded individuals contributing to society and in stable relationships and all of us adore our mum.

We knew that we would get a smack for doing wrong and were given warnings. If we carried on, we would get a wallop, it would make us behave better (for a while) and it was over and done with. I find the 'mental' forms of punishment (such as withholding toys, naughty corner etc) much more damaging that a short, sharp slap. We knew that our mum loved us.

I do the same with my children and although they may be upset for 5 minutes after a smack, they are not afraid of me and I am not a monster. I adore my kids and they adore me but I will not put up with bad behaviour. Makes you wonder, with the demonising of smacking as a punishment, why there seem to be so many brattish children about these days!!

Phantom I was not smacked and am all the things you say you are in your post. My children are well disciplined etc. I just can't imagine deliberately raising my hand to them. I don't put up with bad behaviour and am seen as quite strict.

Take your point about mental forms of punishment.

Am withdrawing from this thread as I think I have made my point. It has been an interesting discussion.

Before I came to Mumsnet I (genuinely) believed that the majority of parents smacked (or were willing to smack) their children.

It always amazes me how out of touch with (some of) my peers I am.

Is this rabid "anti-smacking" the sort of concern of people who waste enormous amounts of energy getting their children into "good schools", or is it near universal?

I have smacked for the first time recently, not hard but out of frustration as my normal reasoning did not work. I was very upset afterwards.
my 4yr old son told me he needed a plaster He looked shocked, surprised and very upset. It broke my heart and I cried.
It did not stop me from doing it again though (not hard) but because I had done it once before it took the edge off.
Now I fear it may become the norm.
Now I have read this thread I will do my utmost never to smack again or to think it's ok. It is not
I will let him get away with certain behaviour and not get into a power struggle just because he won't stop doing something when i ask him, that really is not that bad.

its just that when you are tired and stressed with a 4 yr old and a 2 year old it is hard to be rational.

Can anyone recommend any good books or sites please

my youngest has just climbed out of bed and come downstairs for the first time ever.
After reading this thread I can not be bothered to tell her off at all.
I gently tried to get her to get back into bed she sweetly refused so we are now watching eastenders and eating cheesy puffs.

Any suggestions?

she sleeps in the same bedroom as her 4 yr old brother who is asleep and has never come down like this (either of them)

I am coming to the conclusion that I can only try so hard and is I don't want to resort to smacking and reasoning doesn't work well, just let them do what they like up to a point ..

3/10

You can't send up the anti-smacking mob any better than they do themselves.

If you are seriously at a loss, try bAnneb bAtkinsb.

what I needed was someone like you, thanks