Is smacking always bad?

[Muon]

I have two boys, both very young, and have been to playgroups where older children often behave quite violently towards other children. These children seem to have no idea of the hurt they are causing.
If a child is smacked (once they've been told it's going to happen if they don't change their behaviour and obviously not hard enough to cause a bruise) then they get the idea that physical pain is a punishment. If they don't know what it feels like how do they know what they are doing to other people? It seems to come naturally to children to try hitting as a way of expressing frustration at an age when they're not capable of verbal reasoning, so an adult giving them a smack to control their behaviour at that age wouldn't seem unreasonable.
I believe that most children start out basically nice and, when they get to the stage where they understand other people have feelings too, they won't want to inflict something they see as a punishment without due cause.
I know this message is very nonPC but I also know some people agree, although to actually smack a child in public runs the high risk of abuse from other people. Can the choice to smack or not be accepted as a parenting choice without interference from other people?

flamingobingo no i havent read any of those you mentioned but i have heard the first one talked about on MN a few times. i will have a look at that. thank you.

colditz, perhaps the corealation is to do with parents being busier and having less patience/time to be rational with their children and more quick tempered.

yes.And yet it is first children who are noticably more neurotic.

is that a known fact or your own experience?

i'm not having a pop here, i am genuinely asking.

it was just a suggestion that that might be the cause.

i also said i wouldnt shout, i shout more now that ive had dc2 and yet my ds1 is not as well behaved as he was before. but there could be any number of reasons for that, new baby, his age, influence of school (other children), picking up on my drop in mood. then again my drop in mood could be caused by his behaviour.

Historically kids were routinely smacked, and very few of them turned into aggressive anti-social maniacs or thugs .

So I hate the black-and-white view of smacking that always comes out in these discussions online. Today a LOT of seemingly sensible parents occasionally smack, and yet still have nice children who aren't horrid or violent people. Plenty of us have resorted to smacking at least a few times (I tried it 2 or 3x with DC3). I would like to hear from people who find it effective; not that I want to copy them, but I am always interested what works for others, I am not here to condemn anyone. Most such parents probably aren't brave enough to talk honestly, though. So we never get to hear a good solid description from the many people who try to smack 'moderately': they just get too much aggro if they pipe up (like CarrieBo has been receiving).

I find what someone said about a consistent discipline technique interesting. Wildly inconsistent parenting is FAR worse than occasional smacking, imho.

Keep it up CarrieBo. You are not damaging your DD. She is emotionally healthy, loving and considerate to her friends and your DS. She has a very healthy respect for your authority and your DH's. She is a totally balanced, well-loved pleasure to be around who has never once in the 2+ years I've known her shown any sense of fear, trepidation or anything other than love (and the occasional bout of whinginess ) towards you or DH.

Yes the rest of the posters, it helps that I know CarrieBo and can see day to day the effect of her parenting method, which I also share. Of course she's calm about it - but never cold. Would you rather she screamed at her DD? I appreciate that this is an emotional topic - most parts of parenting are but one or two of you have overstepped the mark in calling her disgusting. Thought this was supposed to be a forum for support?

OP: Smacking a toddler is , imo, popintless from a discipline pov.
They are too young to be able to project what they feel on to somone else, that is a clear developmental stage which they simply haven't reached. They learn by copying. So you won't teach a young child 'do as you wouldn't be done by' by smacking, and are more likely to teach them 'if someone does something you don't like, hit them!'. Toddlers are also programmed to take pysical knocks in their stride and not be deterred: how else would they learn to walk? So although they won't like being smacked, it may well not deter them next time.

Bloss: you see, I think talk of punishing small children for not sharing toys is starting fom the wrong premise. They have no idea that they are hurting someone else by snatching, or not sharing (again, no theory of the mins, yet), they are deeply territorial, and jealous, and think that THEY will suffer if they don't have the toy. They are simply not able to cope, developmentally, with deferred gratification. So, distraction, etc. OR it is possible, with some children, to actively teach them to 'take turns', and learn that they will get a toy back, and quickly, and that they will survive the experience of having not been in possession. You just play 'quick turns' with them, "your turn, your turn, now your turn" . Not all children will be ammenable, but I know some who have been.

As it happens, I don't think smacking is always abusive or the worst thing that can happen or damaging, (often it is, and always when extreme, but not always or inevitably, I think) but I don't see that it is necessary, or beneficial.

Sorry Arcadie, are you saying that a child being led into a room, knowing they will be smacked feels no fear? Utter tosh imo.

Gibbon it seems to me that you just can't accept that smacking your child once is not the same as beating them repeatedly. Of course Carrie's child isn't afraid of her - she has no need to be. She has boundaries and when she oversteps them she has a predictable consequence. What's scary about that?

Time2hibernate, I disagree with your post.
I could be wrong, but you assume that other disciplines have not been tried.
What if you've read 'how to talk, tried the naughty step already and every other talking/punishment style advocated by supernanny etc. withdrawl of toys, tv, bed early etc etc. thats why I ended up thinking of kohn, becasue ds1 doesn't appear to respond to punishments.
I smacked ds1, 3 times I think, definitely less than a handful of times. I am ashamed and regret it. I took away everything, tried every technique, shouted, cried, warned him and warned him and then snapped. ashamed at my lack of self control.dh and I talked about it at the time and agreed, it wasn't right, it wasn't working etc etc, and not to do it again.

boooooooyboo, I am trying to stop shouting , at the moment.
I never used to shout at ds1. then he became impossible at about 3.5 or 4, I think it was.I don't think it is good. I shout less than i did a few months ago. but shouted yesterday. ongoing battle i think.

Here's a point for debate ........

Not that long ago smacking was considered the norm as a parenting tool now it isn't. Over a similar period the behaviour of children in general has declined. Any link?

I don't recall likening smacking in a cold and calculated manner to a beating, though I find both abhorrent.

With respect, how do you know how her child feels?

This is an emotive subject, one which will cause people to speak strongly about how they feel. Usually my mantra is 'parenting is personal' - not for me to judge but smacking is one thing I do judge on and I won't apologise for that.

Yes VG, the decline in modern day society can be linked to the fact people no longer hit small children

how long ago are we talking voluptua ?

just to add, you cannot attribute the increase in 'bad' behaviour to the change in opinion on smacking alone. you must take into account a wide range of environmental changes that have occurred. eg; smaller teacher to child ratio, increased use of recreational drugs in society, less support from extended family members amongst otehr things

Yes, smaking is always wrong.

CarrieBo's post on Thu 29-Oct-09 10:00:19 has made me feel physically sick.

Ah knew that one would be controversial.

Of course there are other factors and I'm generalising hugely here but consider schools. Teachers nowadays have nothing to fall back on as punishment and I mean last resort punishment. I'm 40. Corporal punishment was abolished when I was about 14. But I remember that the very threat of getting the belt was enough to get a class under control. I don't remember people getting belted all the time. It was something used very sparingly and I went to school in a fairly 'rough' area but overall the pupils respected the teachers and on the rare occasion that someone was belted, parents backed up the teacher didn't start a lawsuit!

For the record I was never belted.

And yes, I have smaked my PFB, but not my younger DC's.

I was wrong, and I shouldn't have done it.

I don't take toys away, or do time outs, although I do ask DD if she would like to siton the bottom step, if she's being particularly unruley, and she always chooses to. (My boys always chose not to. )

I would add decline in 'godfearing' to the list of things that have changed.

voluptua, what happened when the teacher got it wrong? or if the teacher had a dislike of a certain pupil? or the teacher had a really bad temper and vented on the pupils?

is it right that children are hurt because the teacher is in a bad mood? it is abuse under the guise of discipline

Arcadie In my earlier post I said that I think that Carrie's calm approach is commendable, but WITHOUT the smacking.

I would suggest that her daughter would be just as delightful without the smack. It is the calm approach that works, not the smack.

Pressed send too early. I just do not think it is right to exercise control over a child's body ("I can hit you, but you can't hit me"), in this way. I will never agree to that.

I do a lot of things to my children that they cannot and are not allowed to do to me. I tell them when to shower, and if they won't, I pick them up and shower them. I deny them snacks an hour before dinner. I interfere with their entertainment by switching the TV off. I choose their clothes for them, and don't allow them to leave the house inappropriately dressed.

just because we don't allow ourselves to be treated like children does not mean children are being badly treated.