Is smacking always bad?

[Muon]

I have two boys, both very young, and have been to playgroups where older children often behave quite violently towards other children. These children seem to have no idea of the hurt they are causing.
If a child is smacked (once they've been told it's going to happen if they don't change their behaviour and obviously not hard enough to cause a bruise) then they get the idea that physical pain is a punishment. If they don't know what it feels like how do they know what they are doing to other people? It seems to come naturally to children to try hitting as a way of expressing frustration at an age when they're not capable of verbal reasoning, so an adult giving them a smack to control their behaviour at that age wouldn't seem unreasonable.
I believe that most children start out basically nice and, when they get to the stage where they understand other people have feelings too, they won't want to inflict something they see as a punishment without due cause.
I know this message is very nonPC but I also know some people agree, although to actually smack a child in public runs the high risk of abuse from other people. Can the choice to smack or not be accepted as a parenting choice without interference from other people?

Northerlurker Carrie took the decision to post that, and feels justified in what she does. We've got a right to feel however we feel about it and express that. If you feel emotional about it you're going to use emotional language.

I think Bloss and Toadstool need a smack!

Oh and Carrie needs one too! And her H!

This thread has come at an interesting time for me.

I do not smack either of my boys, but I actually lost my temper with my youngest (9) at the weekend and I smacked him on the leg.

I can't believe I did that. Poor little thing, he was so shocked he just stared at me, and when I turned my head, his brother (12) was literally looking at me jaw-agape.

I apologised immediately (I've been under quite a bit of stress lately, maybe that was why I did such an alien thing) and then his eyes welled up, and I felt HORRIBLE. I gave him a cwtch, and then he was ok. I cannot imagine using smacking as a tool. He felt horrible, I felt horrible, and I'm worried that I've broken something IYKWIM.

whooo Most of us have done it .....

what is a "cwtch" by the way ? Is it a sort of cane ?

Ha! no a cwtch is a cuddle.

Maybe if I gave him a cane he could have given me one back!

(Oh, I didn't mean that I'd broken one of his bones or anything! Just that I'd broken an unspoken agreement between our family)

But only about half of what I've quoted comes from the thread after Carrie posted - the rest is before that.

It seems to me that people feel they have to justify their decision not to smack because it is sometimes (wrongly) associated with a lack of discipline altogether. In the course of that self justification they resort to emotive language because they feel they have bolstered their own position. So many people seem afraid of being accused of poor parenting that they launch an attack on the choices and behaviour that differs from their own. If you don't smack then seeing children who have been smacked and are bright, confident, well behaved and NOT tormented by fear of their parents is actually something of a challenge to your position isn't it? So either you hold a position that you don't smack but it's ok to do so in different families OR you adopt the position that people who smack are wrong. It's probably more straightforward to hold the latter position and of course it does help people feel very good about themselves.

Message withdrawn

Message withdrawn

Northern The irony is that I think Carrie's approach is really good - up to the point where she smacks her daughter. Warning, removal from the situation, time alone to think, a discussion of why something is wrong. Topped off with a smack, which basically says - look, I can do something to your body that you can't do to me.

My own feeling is actually not of outrage (except when I've seen a whack and/or mean horrible words done in anger), but of puzzlement. It's just not necessary to discipline in this way, IMO.

And I agree with whoever said that it is not necessarily the worst thing you can do to a child (neglect, emotional abuse can be worse).

I don't know where that leaves me ...

Northernlurker - please! That is ridiculous! People say it's damaging because it is damaging! It is humiliating and demeaning.

Maybe people are feeling sick at the thought of someone smacking a child because it brings up awful unwanted memories from their own childhood. Smacking may not ALWAYS be bad. My brother and I were treated the same (similar to what Carrie does with her DD). He is fine, I have had years of counselling to cope with it. Why take the risk?

No Flamingo - that is your opinion - that is not an unchallenged fact.

Topped off with a smack, which basically says - look, I can do something to your body that you can't do to me.

I should have added "I can do something to your body that you can't do to me or anyone else"

Sorry, are you saying that it's not a fact that smacking is damaging? That that is only my opinion?

Smacking! Forget it! It doesn't work and there are a whole host of other options that are really far more effective than smacking.

My DS has been taught about behaviour by losing his rights to something that means more to him: ie taking a toy away explaining why.

I explain what is expected from him before going somewhere and the consequences of not sticking to the agreement, so he has had to walk home instead of riding his trike; lost the right to watch TV for a couple of days - that type of thing.

It does take patience but I have watched other children being smacked and the lesson hasn't been learnt about what and why.

Instead, sadly I think the lesson is that it's ok to strike someone who is more vulnerable than you. I agree wholeheartedly with Hugme that it can be done in a moment of loss of control. What does the future hold then?

I'm not perfect but we have to teach them the alternatives. Someone posted a tip about tantrums the other day, about blowing gently on the child's face and giggling to break the cycle. It works! As does laughing with them when it gets so out of hand!

I found a document on the internet called how to talk so your children will listen, it is brilliant. I wish I could find the author's name as it really made sense and so very simple.

Time, your approach sounds very much like one outlined in the "no cry discipline solution" by elizabeth pantley.

There is also a book that has really helped me called Toddlers need Boundaries (and a follow on called Children need Boundaries).

To be honest, I always assumed I would probably smack my children until I actually had them, and then really had to think about the process of discipline and started to read a bit and think about the impact of smacking. This completely changed my mind, and I don't think smacking is good for anyone's child or their long term relationships with their children.

I do think that many people simply use these approaches without really questioning them as I would have.

A website that has a lot of stuff about this (alot of the material refers to far more extreme situations borderline abusive) but is good food for thought is www.nospank.net

Just wanted to be more specific about the nospank website, as I said a lot of it refers to practically abusive situations which of course no one here is advocating, but there is a section called parenting wisely which makes for interesting reading.

www.nospank.net/nurture

I think it is wrong to try and control behaviour with physical pain or emotional pain to the same extent.

Also, smacking is pointless - if you child plays up when he/she is 12 years old, and you smack them, they will probably laugh at you (I used to run away laughing from my mum who smacked me with a slipper when her hand did not hurt enough!)

Make boundaries, and enforce them fairly and calmly without emotional or physical pain. Your child will respect you and once their brain has developed, they will learn to control and moderate their own behaviour better, including their temper.

I use the softly softly boundaries way with my son and so does hubby; our 3 year old is surprisingly well behaved for his age, never hits, says sorry whenever he hurts you by accident, calms down quickly from tantrums and is very secure. He is by nature, very strong willed but is learning very quickly that he does not need to use inappropriate behaviour to get things he wants.

I was smacked as a child, not excessively, and only after the count of three, but no one understood my feelings or helped me calm down. I received a lot of love from my mother, but I was not understood and met at my level, so I was a very frustrated and temperamental tantrum er !!!

As an adult, I work on my patience and have learned how to control my anger nearly all the time, and have also helped my husband do the same. I am not perfect, but I work to be patient and I am extremely affectionate. I would be very disappointed in myself if I hurt my child because I disapproved of their behaviour. I would appologise, say what I had done wrong and ask for forgiveness. Smacking to me is a loss of control and/or a use of pain to control. Not good.

I want to talk about Carrie as well..I saw something else in her post, it seems to me that she is trying to bring up her DD with clear boundaries and disapline. I think the real crime is the parent who doesn't bother at all. That lets their child do what they like. I don't always think we judge people fairly really. Carrie is not meaning to cause harm or psychological damage to her DD, her intention is to give a clear message to her for her own sake.

I'm not suggesting that I agree with her. I just want you all to think.

IMO smacking is a method of teaching a child something that you cannot reason to him/her or explain in a way they can understand. As is time out/naughty steps, removal of toys and so forth.

You may not like the method (as I personally don't) but what is worse IMO is the lack of method at all and a confused child with no clear boundaries.

Parent's today don't know what to do anymore so they do nothing..they reason/explain to children too young to understand what they're banging on about, they bribe, beg and hope for better behaviour which doesn't come of course because children want a strong leader not a weak spineless parent who can't control them.

I was smacked as a child and it was awful - but I wouldn't use emotive language about other parents' choices. Besides, I once smacked DD on the bottom - not hard - in temper and I felt just rotten afterwards. So it's something I will try my utmost not to do again.

We do what Carrie suggests (removing DD from the situation, trying to talk to her calmly about why she was wrong, taking nice things away etc etc) without the smacking part. I am crap at not getting angry though and raising my voice, which I think is also counterproductive. It's hard to be rational sometimes.

lilyjen what do you mean when you say "parents today"?

do you mean to imply that before this generation all parents knew the perfect way to discipline their children?

i dont think it's a case of that at all, i think parenting has a much bigger focus on it than years gone by and people realise now the damage that can be caused by bad parenting. it is called progress and i resent being referred to as a weak spineless parent because i choose to look for the best method of parenting for my children rather than take the easy route of smacking because thats how it used to be done by my parents. i choose to be pro-active in my parenting and not reactive to bad behaviour.

I saw a parenting programme where the mother was advised to take a favourite toy and put it in a clear box where the child could see it and not have it. An watching that child's reaction, I have NEVER seen a child so distressed. I couldn't watch.

My stance on smacking softened considerably that night.

I must add that when I only had a small child, and all my friends only had small children, smacking was villified amongst us.

But as those children have gotten bigger, gobbier and naughtier, and families have gotten bigger and busier, smacking seems to happen more.

I would be interested to do a poll on opion on smacking correlating with age of child - IME by the time you have raised a child to 18 your stance has changed considerably.

I said I would never shout.