5 yr old DS is driving me crazy!!!Please help.

[chocciedooby]

I have been concerned with DS's behavious for some time now and I am really getting to the end of my tether. So many behaviorial things to mention but a few are that he is: -

Attention Seeking
Persistant
Stubborn
At times - aggressive
Very fussy eater

The list is endless. He does of course he has many great positive qualities but I really need help as I don't know how much more of this unacceptable behaviour I can take. I am exhausted physically and emotionally, am expecting baby no.3 in June and don't know how I will cope.

One of the things that I find very difficult is that he wants to be in control of EVERYTHING. I stand my ground, don't give in, say NO and stick to it but he continues to throw huge tantrums (sometimes over an hour long), has peed on the floor and in his bed for attention and will go to any lengths to win a battle.

He will not go to sleep in the evenings and constantly calls dh and I upstairs for silly things just to get our attention. I am so concerned that he is not getting enough sleep. His mind seems to be overactive.

I have tried many discipline techniques (in fact about all of them) over the years and nothing seems to work. I am now considering talking to a challenging behaviour therapist and wondered if anyone else out there is dealing with the same problems or has found a therapist of use.

Please please help.

Wow missionimpossible you have a very strict diet and your shopping bill must be high!.

I also do not have fizzy drinks in the house or squashes with the bad additives in. My kids do however eat the following cereals:

Special K
Corn Flakes,
Rice Krispies,
Weetabix
Porridge

They also get chocolate as a treat and they love rashers! We eat lots of supermarket bread although mainly wholemeal and we do eat a lot of wondeful Irish brown soda bread. Kids also have pre-packed ham in their sandwiches. I don't see anything wrong with any of these things.

Thats enough talk from me on food and diets. I really can't believe I am being drawn into it when its my DS's behaviour that needs attending to and not his diet. Isn't it a myth anyway that chocolate and sweet things make kids go wild??

I have spoken to DS's teacher this morning and the shcool cannot organise assessment as there is a very long waiting list. I then went to see the principal and we discussed DS in length.

We are going to introduce a chart that DS beings home and back to the school the following day. I have to point out which things he needs to do and if he does them he gets a star. The chart is divided into 3 categories, mornings, afternoons and bedtimes.

I have done charts before and they didn't work but the difference here is that DS will have to bring the chart into school each day to his teacher and if he doesn't have a star in any particular section he has to explain why. They inform me that they have used this system before and it has been very effective but at the same time does not always work.

I have agreed to try it out (as any help is a positive). It's going to be tough and I must stick to it firmly to have the best chance of it working. In the meantime I await my free assessment.

Wish me luck ladies

good luck choccie! definitely worth a try - haven't come across that chart-with-a-twist method before, i can see how it would rachet up its effectiveness having school involved, hopefully at least!

How long have you tried each technique for is my question, as swapping and changing techniques is as confusing as no boundries.

Pick a method- my preferred being time out such as sitting by the door. Give 1 warning saying I will count to 5, if you haven't stopped doing x I will..... time out, take away favourite toy, no party at the weekend etc.
Peeing for attention I would give him the dettol spray and a cloth/kitchen roll and he would clean it up. In the bed he would be made to strip the bed and put the linen in the washer if it was on purpose. I did this with my 2.5yo who started doing it after dd2 was born (dry for 6mths prior btw so no accident) and it was very effective.

Make a list of all the things he calls you back for and make sure all things are done/got before going to bed- then IGNORE.

Pick your battles because he sounds like he is doing some things for the reaction, even anger/shouting is negative reinforcement. Ignore as much as possible if its not life threatening/dangerous. If he won't get dressed in the morning take him to school in pjs and pack his uniform, he will soon want to be dressed when he gets to the playground- just an example iyswim but teach him through letting him choose the wrong thing and he will realise that mum says things for a reason iyswim.

Always explain why you need co-operation and tell him you feel sad/angry etc.

HI Dillydaydreamer. Thanks for your input there.

We have tried many techniques over the years but have stuck to TIME OUT for over a year now. I know what you are saying about confusing them with inconsistent consquences, punishments etc and I have thought about that in the past so it may have applied then.

Whenever DS's pees he is always made to clean up the mess himself. Thats why he doesn't do this very often.

The problem with bedtimes is that DS2 is trying hard to sleep next door and DS1 is disturbing him and encouraging him to get up to no good. I have however been ignoring most of his calls and it does seem to be working. (slowly).

I am also picking my battles. I started the school chart system yesterday and it was a tough day. I stood firm and there were some signs of him giving in and doing as he was told. We have a long way to go but I am having to remove the control from him that he has gotten so used to having. I do believe this control does not a happy child make!

Definately considering taking him to school in his PJ's. The teacher told me a story about a boy that did that before. It worked a treat so that card is up my sleeve should he not improve using the chart system.

All of your points makes perfect sense so thanks again.

DS isn't allowed breakfast until he's dressed. Works every time...

Glad to be of some use choc

Well Ds is kicking off again upstairs. We have kept returning him to bed, have removed his favourite teddy and books. He was so close to getting his first sticker on his chart and has failed. Such a shame.

He did everything all afternoon that I asked of him and now its all spoilt by yet another handful of tantrums.

Dh is upstairs as DS does not only call us up anymore but has upped the anti and is now coming down the stairs. Does anyone have any advice on what to do? He seems to be bored and want constant attention and bewcause he can't sleep he is at it again.
We have had quite a busy day and I know he is tired but still does this. AAAAAARRRRRRRHHHh

Why not sit with him? He's so clearly asking for a bit of help to get to sleep IMO. We've sat with ds, on and off, when he's needed it over the years. It's a good 'lever' because usually they want your company and you can say "I'll sit with you as long as you are laying down and quiet".

Leo9 I have tried to avoid that tbh as I didn't want to make a habit of it and with DS everything becomes a bad habit FAST.

I do however think DH went up and sat with him and all is calm now so maybe you are right. Its much better than the stress of what we were doing.

I spend quite a lot of evenings on my own with both DS's and have another one on the way in June so would worry if this was still going on then as I can hardly split myself in 2 now let alone 3.

Thank you for being here and for your support.

I think alot of people think "oh I don't want to start that" but if all that means is you have chaos and confrontation instead of a lovely, warm, quiet, intimate time at bedtime, I know which I choose! Remember nothing is forever with children. Their needs and wants change. And I've found the less you 'give' on issues like this the more they demand.

For instance DS was like this at one time; screaming for us to come back, etc; whereas if we just stay, calmly, we can actually pop out of the room to 'do something' and he didn't scream etc.

I just think with kids you have to do what works now and what they need now rather than thinking "oh that'll create a habit" or "but when the baby comes....." baby is not here YET so you can deal with things as they are now IMO.

well DS is calm now but still shouting out for us now and then. He is not at all upset and normally does this until he falls asleep.

I am going to ignore his calls for now but if he was upset I would go and comfort him.

He tries to control every aspect of life at the moment so I see this as part of that. It is hard for me to think otherwise at the moment and I must stick to my guns. I know my DS and he has many funny ways. He is extremely attention seeking and would have me sleeping in his bed with him if he could. I cannot go down the route.

Just thinking - "he did everything I asked of him all afternoon"...and yet because of bedtime he doesn't get a sticker. That is very high expectations of a boy this age.

I think you should set him lower targets; my goodness, I can't think of an afternoon when my ds did all I asked of him, and he's a very good child with no behaviour probs!

I think you need to enable him to succeed with this sticker chart thing; start small, work up.

I'm not 100% liking the idea of home/school being mixed this way but if it works, fine. Different things work for different kids!

I think your DS sounds very high maintenance, but if you'll allow me to be frank, your approach (stick to my guns, not give in, can't go down that road, don't want to create habits, can't do that as I won't be able to when baby is here for instance) may well have gone some way to making this problem worse; it is possible to have a much less rigid approach IMO and to choose much less confrontation. IMHO. I'm not saying it's not hard though.

Well now I am totally confused!
I have been told that the only way is to be firm, stand my ground, don't give in and take back control. Am I just not getting this whole parenting thing at all then?!
So many people give so many conflicting views on this that I end up with my head spinning. I have made my own decisions and done things my way for 5 years but finally I found the courage to talk to people about it and to try and get some support in how to deal with DS's behaviour.

When I said that DS had done most things I had asked him to do in the afternoon I meant that he had stuck to the rules; no hitting or hurting people, did homework when told to and came to dinner table when told to. Not major expectations. Things that every 5 year old should do imo.

The system that I am trying does not give a sticker if a tantrum occurs. He is having far too many tantrums for his age. 7 on Monday, 8 yesterday.

I do agree Leo9 that I may have to start small to help DS to succeed with the chart system but how small do I go? I really really wanted to give DS a sticker last night for getting himself ready for bed, getting washed etc but after all of that he had a massive meltdown. How else do I teach him that tantrums are bad? Please give me some advice on that.

Thanks for being frank about my contribution to DS's behaviour. I have spent the last few days beating myself up about it all blaming myself etc etc. Just what I needed to hear.

When he has a tantrum, is it complete out of control, or manipulative? Am only asking, as my son has completely out of control ones, and though I'd so rather he didn't, I don't think he can help himself. If he gets like that, I sit nearby and try and talk him down quietly. When he's calmed down we have a huge hug as I know being like that upsets him, even though he doesn't admit it! A bit later I talk to him about why it happened/ why it's not on/ can we agree not to get to that stage again? I also try very hard to avoid anything that might escalate into a tantrum. Not by letting him have his own way, but more by distraction, or by knowing the signs. My point is that tantrums aren't bad unless your son's in control and is doing it to manipulate you. If he's out of control, he needs to be gently helped to find a way not to lose it. Punishment won't achieve that, it'll only make things worse. Am saying this from experience. My parents were lovely, but when I had a tantrum they used to shut me in my room. I clearly remember bashing my own head on the wall in frustration and I really hated them for it. The key thing is that I don't think I ever had a tantrum because I wanted to, so punishing me in that way never solved it and probably made me more likely to do it again. What I needed was someone to work with me to understand why I did that and to help me find another way of expressing frustration. I think I stopped tantruming through embarrassment. I also think I'm pretty repressed emotionally and looking back it's hardly surprising.
Sorry this is long, but I suppose what I'm saying is next time he has a tantrum, why not surprise him and try giving him a hug. Break the cycle and talk to him about it. Tell him it's hard to watch him that angry and ask how it makes him feel. I'm not saying accept it as good, I'm only saying please don't punish him too much. He'll never come through if you do. Help him find a way, and praise him lots if he avoids triggers. He'll be so proud of himself if he starts to be more aware of it and avoids it. Got to be worth a try surely.

Had a thought on your sticker chart - divide it as is into three sections, so mornings, afternoons, bed time, but give a sticker once each is over - if you do that he would have had a sticker for the afternoon, but would have failed at bed time. Whenever we've done it, we've had a getting up section too, as getting dressed, etc is always a battle ground.
Also, in the past we've added incentives, so why not say if you get 10 stickers over the course of a week, then at the weekend we'll have a treat - make it something he really, really wants. Could be a trip somewhere, or a toy and it doesn't have to be expensive, but whatever it is, it has to be something that he really, really wants. Tell him if he gets there, you'll go buy it. Definitely made a difference for us in times of extreme need.

Hi Smee.
Thanks for your posts.Ds's tantrums are definately manipulative. He knows exactly what he is doing and its all about control.The problem is that it starts like that and then it becomes an out of control tantrum. I know he is upset and can't be happy being like this but as soon as he has apologised and we have had a big hug and chat he does it all over again. I take your point about trying to break the cycle and will give the hug thing a go later today. It is worth a try but then am I not being inconsistent again?The sticker chart is already broken into 3 sections; mornings, afternoons and bedtimes and a sticker can be earned for each of these sections. Once that section of the day is over it's over and we move onto the next. I couldn't give him a sticker yesterday afternoon as he had a huge tantrum outside of the school as seconds after I collected him from school. Its as if he waits for the teacher to be out of sight and then kicks off to statrt a fight. I am trying so hard to keep my cool, have not shouted, smacked or any of that kind of thing but it is so difficult. He does not care about tantrums in public. Doesn't bat any eyelid. Not embarressed.
He receives many incentives to behave well during the week but they seem to go over his head. Jellies, treats, jigsaws, small toys just don't do it for him and I have run out of ideas.

Poor, poor you. Sounds like you could do with some help to find strategies. The interesting thing for me is that you say he's not embarrassed or bothered. What was the tantrum outside school about, am curious..

The tantrum came from nowhere! Straight out of the blue he simply said he hated me and refused to walk to the car. He proceeded to sit on the floor in the rain and not budge and this was in front of all of his classmates, mums etc. I ignored the behaviour and started chatting to another parent. After a couple of minutes he stood up and ran to join his pals. All was ok until I told him to get into the car. Then another tantrum erupted! He threw off his seatbelt half way down the street etc etc. I had to pull over and calmly but firmly explain safety etc and fasten him back in. I would expect this of a 3 year old at times but not 5.
When I collect him this afternoon he was brilliant. He held my hand, had a smile on his face all the way to the car, got into car and was no problem at all. This is the way it can be sometimes. He is very unpredictable.

Actually my 4.5yr old can be equally as irrational. It's irksome, but I don't think it's that bizarre at his age. Come to think of it, I don't think it is that unusual at 5, or even 6 or even 7. I've seen friend's kids behave like that at that age. Doesn't make it easy to deal with, but equally I really don't think it's that unusual.

If he is attention seeking then tantrums in public are a captive audience and I think you do right just ignoring as much as possible. At home I take all stimulus/audience away and put them on their own and it usually stops, once calm ask why he is screaming? Is he tired/hungry/ have you upset him. Listen to the response carefully and explain that he can use his words to say what the problem is and that if he screams you don't understand whats wrong. Say if you tell me I can try to put things right.
I think expecting him to behave brilliantly all day is a tall order so I agree with splitting the chart into 3/4 sections.

You have all been so right!

I realised yesterday (slow learner that I can be) that this chart was just too rigid and so was I. We have both gotten into a rut and it was never going to fully work. So I have divided the chart up more and yesterday he earned 2 stickers and 1 for this morning. He has been so good and I am over the moon.

I am prepared for set backs of course as its very easly days with this but not only is he having to change his ways but so am I.

He went to kick off into a tantrum yesterday whilst doing his homework. He was frustrated with his writing and didn't want my help but then when he couldn't do it he came over to me and hit me in the stomach 3 times. (not good when pregnant but hey ho). I came down to his level, explained that behaviour was unacceptable and he should never ever hurt people. Instead of shutting him into a room in time out I I talked him down by asking how I could help him to control his anger and he went back to the table calmly and continued his work!!! I couldn't beleive it. Not saying this will work everytime but it could just be the start of changing the cycle as you said smee.

He has gone off to school this morning with a smile on his face. I so pray this will continue to work b ut have a long way to go.