5 yr old DS is driving me crazy!!!Please help.

[chocciedooby]

I have been concerned with DS's behavious for some time now and I am really getting to the end of my tether. So many behaviorial things to mention but a few are that he is: -

Attention Seeking
Persistant
Stubborn
At times - aggressive
Very fussy eater

The list is endless. He does of course he has many great positive qualities but I really need help as I don't know how much more of this unacceptable behaviour I can take. I am exhausted physically and emotionally, am expecting baby no.3 in June and don't know how I will cope.

One of the things that I find very difficult is that he wants to be in control of EVERYTHING. I stand my ground, don't give in, say NO and stick to it but he continues to throw huge tantrums (sometimes over an hour long), has peed on the floor and in his bed for attention and will go to any lengths to win a battle.

He will not go to sleep in the evenings and constantly calls dh and I upstairs for silly things just to get our attention. I am so concerned that he is not getting enough sleep. His mind seems to be overactive.

I have tried many discipline techniques (in fact about all of them) over the years and nothing seems to work. I am now considering talking to a challenging behaviour therapist and wondered if anyone else out there is dealing with the same problems or has found a therapist of use.

Please please help.

choccie, i really thought i would not get through the years 3-6. i thought i was completely alone (i was not on mumsnet then, more's the pity!). i even got DD assessed by a private psychologist but she was a lot better by then (age 6) and the psychologist didn't really get what we were so worried by. the passing of time has been the number one factor in improving all our lives!! it will get better! do read the book, a lot of will resonate with you i'm sure. off to look up ODD now!!

Am not saying let him get away with bad or aggressive behaviour, but have you sat him down and tried talking to him about it/ doing some deals? Am only saying that, as we've had some repetitive battles with DS and found asking what he thinks we should do about it, somehow gives him some power back, and he responds well to it. eg: bedtimes, I've said if you can't sleep, would you like to listen to an audio book - he says yes, I say okay well if we do that, you're not to call us back every few minutes. If you do, the audio book goes off. He mostly drops off listening and we get our evenings back. Same with getting dressed - we have a race each morning as to who's dressed first, so never have a problem. I know it's tedious to have to humour them, and things like getting dressed should be automatic, but hey if it stops a row brewing and makes life more fun I'd go for that every time. For us breaking the negative cycle and giving him some say in consequences has made a huge difference adn though we still have tantrums, they're usually because he's too tired.

Katiek123 - I have to read that book soon.
I called the psycologists office this morning and got the details of the process etc and the cost! It's e400 for an hour!!!Bit of a shocker but I will do anything at this stage.
It is very good to hear that your DD got better with age. I have been praying for this since DS was 16 months old. His behaviour has obviously changed over those developmental years but he has alwyas been extremely defiant. I even had to battle to feed him when a baby. Potty training took 8 months. The list goes on....

I spoke to DS's teacher this afternoon and she doesn't think he has ADD. She has also said she will talk to the principal to see if can get him assessed through the school and if not then will give me some recommended contacts that will be cheaper than e400! She was so helpful listening to me and offering advice but did say that not ADD but something definately there. She thinks he is ODD.

I will hear back from her on Monday afternoon and take it from there but I am feeling more positive already.

Smee I have done the wheeling and dealing thing amongst just about every other trick in the book(s). The audio book is a great idea though and I am going to look out for one of those. Any ideas where to get a good one from?

Hi guys,have spent most of day looking into this as my DD2 is the same. Most friends try to reassure me that it's normal behaviour. However I feel exhausted, and like I've got a beautiful picture, with something out of place which I can't put my finger on.

I logged on just before picking kids up from school and rushed straight to Borders to get the book, but they don't stock it.

I've also spoke in detail to DD2 teacher who said she is well behaved although does go into own world sometimes?

Audio books are okay on an older child,but don't work on my DD2.

She spent nearly 1 and half hours screaming and tantruming last night, trying every trick in the book to come out of her bedroom, I'm firm and do not give in (that would be making arod for my own back). My DH came home and tried to talk to her, it took a further 20 minutes for him to actually gether to calm down (by which time she was exhausted). She came to say sorry (after being prompted), and all she did was revert back to what I had caused the original problem. She didn't say sorry at all.

She justs laughs when told off, doesn't notice when she has upset me or DH. DH put her back to bed which took another 20 minutes before she stopped screaming and lashing out.

Trying to stay calm and keep it all together but my sanity is being tested.

On holiday next week so have DH with me for extra support. I desparately need to get this book! my DD2 is also very clumsy, could this also be a factor? Anyone advise please

i wish i could do links to other threads, grr - do try to find the 'calling all mums of demanding children' thread mrs purple, some MN mums describe really similar situations to yours with their LOs. you sound like you are having a really tough time, as are you choccie and others. and as i used to too (and still do on bad days). i feel for you all.
jabberwocky has a child who has 'sensory processing disorder' and she has posted on that thread i know for sure. might be worth googling, clumsiness can go along with that. a close friend of mine has a daughter with dyspraxia who used to have some similar behaviours to your child at the same age (she is now 7 like my DD and much more controlled), so that might be worth looking into too? am not trying, at ALL, to suggest your lovely little girl has any diagnosis at all other than simple spiritedness, but you're clearly really keen to look into all the possibilites and those two might be worth investigating?
if you ever do get to the family or child therapy stage, look out for therapists following what's known as the 'human givens' approach - it's a new and very rational, insightful and common-sense-drenched approach to problem behaviour and is getting very good results. it's gradually gaining ground in many fields in the caring and teaching professions but it's still not widely available within the nhs, though that's beginning to change.
back soon - good luck everyone!

Katiek123 - have googled both, DD2 displays some symptoms, more so with the dyspraxia. DH agrees, but equally alot of these can be related to her age. One thought is she could be very immature for her age?

Positively, she can play act and copy dance routines perfectly. She tries to copy songs, making up sounds for words she doesn't know.

Have looked at thread you mentioned and am eager to get books. Have experimented with my approach (as I do suffer with depression), but the calmer I get the worse she gets. Have tried humour etc, with no success.

Looking back to birth she was seriuosly ill at 2 weeks with strephalacocus Alpha strain, not the same as strep A (we were told by drs). She was very whingy, crying baby when awake. After seeing child cranial osteopath she immediately seemed happier, this has repeated through toddler years, so could be this, but GP's don't believe in it and I can't afford to fund the treatment myself.

Roll on paediatrician appointment, although this could take upto 8 weeks, how will I get through till then.

Let's hope her aggressive tantrums etc improve a little, as with her starting school this year I want to enjoy the time with her, not dread spending it with her. .

Sorry for going on, had really hard week, depression was getting better, and feel like gone backwards due to the upset DD2 has caused. But onward and upward.

Will end on a quote I got from CBT class, which may help all us mothers (or supermums .

We all think
"I must be perfect" - why,nobody is!
"They must be nice" - not everyone is, don't get upset about it.
"The world must be nice" - it's not don't stress over it.

Have tried to link page here www.mumsnet.com/Talk/behaviour_development/613387-calling-all-mum-s-of-demanding-kids-are-your-fuses

Hope this works

Hi MrsPurple. How are you this morning?

I love the quotes.

I have also suffered from some depression and it really doesn't help when are DC's have behavioural problems. It is SO HARD but we will get there. I am feeling much more positive since coming on here and also talking to DS's teachers. It is also good to know that we are not the only ones out there that are dealing with this. It's not uncommon.

DS1 was much better yesterday. We actually had a lovely afternoon. My best friend came over and the kids all played really well together. Tea time was ok and at bedtime DS followed most of my instructions!!!He must have been in a good mood
He struggled to fall asleep again but nothing to extraordinary. He was asleep by 9pm which is the earliest in the last 3 weeks
He has also woken up in good form today and we are busy doing jigsaws.
I keep my fingers crossed all the time that he doesn't kick off as he can be so unpredictable.
I didn't get a good nights sleep last night so don't have much in reserve for tantrums.

chocciedooby Glad to hear you had a good day yesterday with your little darling .

A teacher is not qualified to dx your ds with any disorder. They can notice and observe traits of a sort, but they should not be discussing ODD/ADHD (not ADD anymore, falls under ADHD umbrella) etc with you at this stage. You really need to have him assessed by a developmental pediatrician either through your GP or privately. A diagnosis is usually made by a team of professional ie: devt paed, ed physch, SALT, OT etc.

My DS aged 6 was v. recently dx ADHD and it took this many to dx him correctly. Put your mind at rest and get the necessary assessments. I've tried a few behavior management techniques for my ds and the one I swear by for him is "1-2-3 Magic". It's been life saver, even at bedtimes

missionimpossible - thanks for reminding me about 1-2-3 magic. i have seen this book recommended so many times on mumsnet but never got around to ordering it - am scurrying off to amazon right NOW to correct this oversight!

...done! how i love amazon...

choccie, mrs purple - do try to get hold of a book called 'how to lift depression...[fast]' by ivan tyrrell and joe griffin - one of the few self-help books for depression i believe to actually work. just a thought!

choccie, Audio books are easily got from Amazon, or in any bookshop. I only let DS have the same one - it's the Pelly & Me, Roald Dahl. He knows the story backwards, so he's not excited, just reassured. If I gave him a wide range, he'd stay awake to listen to it.
Might sound ridiculous, but do you think he could just be over tired? My DS is horrendous when he's had a run of not being able to get to sleep. We've had so much of it, that I've thought of trying to find a sleep clinic to see if there are ways of helping him. He goes to be at 7.30, but is quite often awake as late as ten. Drives me mad, and makes him daftly tired next day. It's proving a real problem now he's started school.

Missionimpossible - Thanks for your comments. I am waiting to hear back from DS's teacher on Monday afternoon as to if I can get him assessed through the school. The assessment would be done there by a child psycologist. Unfortunately there is no NHS here so you don't get much for free. We can however go on a waiting list to be assessed by peadiatrictians etc and I am on the list as of 2 days ago.
My other alternative was to go to a Professor that specialises in ADHD etc but he wants e400 for 1 hour and that is simply for assessment, diagnosis and a report sent to GP. No follow ups, therapies, advice on how to deal with xyz or anything. When I called they never asked me any questions about my DS or our problems, just wanted to book me in and this made me doubt if this was the right path to take. I have not cancelled out the idea altogether but am weighing up other options first.1-2-3 magic doesn't work here unfortunately.
Katiek123 will look into that book, thanks.
Smee - DS's behaviour has gone on and got worse over a number of years so its definately not down to tiredness. It may however have gotten worse recently due to his late nights.

I went onto itunes last night where you can download audio boks for free to be put onto an ipod but then had second thoughts as DS would NEVER get to sleep with the excitement of having my ipod!!!
Going to see how tonight goes sleep wise. He has been in great form all day today, went to a birthday party that involved lots of exercise and is now in the bath for the 2nd time today DH is back from a business trip and is helping out. (phew).

Big thanks to you all for your posts and tips etc. It is SO good to know that someone is out there listening and has been/is going through the same kind of thing.

choccidooby where do you live, out of interest .... noticed the Euro was mention with costs. The assessment you referred to does not sound 'good'. They should have asked questions prior to booking you in and probably should have had a chat to school as well. Was it recommended to you ?

I live in Ireland.
My GP referred me for the assessment and said that the professor is the best specialist for ADD/ADHD. I just didn't feel right that they never asked any questions. Sounded like another money spinner to me.

Had a great day yesterday with DS so things have been going well since I looked into all of this. It won't go away permanently though, I know that now.

Daddy returned home yesterday and the boys are in top form (even though he has had to go back into work this morning).

I don't know about you, but the weekends are usually great in my house. My ds is chilled and under very little stress. I maintain that our education system creates much stress in some children .... how comes these traits get worse once they have started school? . I'm not saying these 'disorders' do not exist .... Oh, I could go on for hours on this one, but I'll spare you.

I would just like to see a more flexibility curriculum to engage the boys (and girls) who find it harder to confirm, concentrate and remain attentive - which at the end of the day, is all the schools want them to do

Can you any other research regarding your referral? Could you contact paed at Gt. Ormand St or the BMA and get recommendations in Ireland ? Just a thought.

ps What have you done about diet, supplements etc?

Hi ladies, didn't come on yesterday, as was shattered and doing some self soothing (CBT term). Also trying to get ready for holiday. DH took kids out to Tumble tots, and swimming lessons to give me a break.

DD2 was better yesterday and made me feel a little better. Although gone pear shaped this morning. DH bathed them and I left him to it, he experience the full wrath of the screaming. (I feel like I'm not heard).

Have sat both DD1 and DD2 down and explained what has upset me (in very simple terms) and linked to not good behaviuor. Kept as simple as possible due to ages. At the moment I don't feel like going on holiday, but must try and raise my mood.

With regard to depression I have been in therapy since November, so have actually started to feel alot better (and was wondering why I needed to carry on going), however this has really lowered my mood.

Glad to here I'm not the only one (in the nicest possible way). Hope everyone has a good week, in case I don't get chance to come on-line later. Will up date next weekend.

MrsPurple Oh, I hope your holiday goes well. I know from first hand how my moods directly affect my ds's behavior. Try and relax (easier said than done) and enjoy your dc.

I really have to 'check' myself and the way I react to him and by doing so, things have calmed down considerably. Good lucK

Hi missionimpossible

Originally I thought it was my moods, however the calmer I am the worse my DD2 is?

The only reason my moods have gone lower is due to very difficult week with behaviour.

Thanks for advice as I have spent alot of time pondering over if it was my moods. But my DD2 is the same with my DH when I'm not even here! my in laws are here now so may get time to explain further later

chocciedooby
hi, a friend said i should read this thread as i am having terrible problems with my 5 year old son. he has been a nightmare for a couple of weeks now. He says terrible things and is not even really naughty just nasty. He moans from the minute he gets up until he goes to bed. He is absolutley fine at school and gets on very well. He has a lot of friends. I am thinking of taking him to see my GP this week as i am worried that he is ill (he was poorly a couple of weeks ago when all this started). I am a bit put off by your GP suggesting ADD as i have read about this and i cannot convince myself that this is his problem as surely he would be the same at school?
I would not get too worried about ADD until you have had it properly diagnosed (not that i know anything about this but it seems a bit premature)
My son has spent the afternoon doing dot to dots and looking at books. he has spent 2 weeks shouting at me, throwing things at me, calling me names and being generally very horrible.It is good to know i am not alone but neither are you. good luck

chocciedooby Your son is fine ... you can't be ADHD at home and not in school. It affects several areas of your life. I think he may be sickening for something or still poorly. Pop him down to GP to check out. My older ds was similar to this and I found out he had an advanced ear infection that was driving him crazy, but he has a high pain threshold and was 'coping'. Good luck

Missionimpossible my DS is not ill. He has been behaving like this for years and it has been getting worse. Forgive me, but did you get him mixed up with SJB2405 DS?
Incidentally I did get DS's throat etc checked out last week when at GPs just in case as there are a lot of strep cases going around.

DS's teacher told me that there is definatley something goipng on with my DS but didn't think ADHD. His school work is good but she is on his case all of the time. He doesn't so as he is told and finds it difficult to sit down to do anything!

HI SJB2045. Yes, its great to know we are not alone. Saves up cracking up completely.

MrsPurple - have a great holiday

Missionimpossible - DS is a very fussy eater and his diet could be better. I have spent years worrying over his diet but have many times been told by health visitors etc that he is doing fine. My mother and other family members always used to irritate me saying that his behaviour must be down to his diet but now they have changed their minds . I'm not so sure but how do you get a child like my DS to try any news foods???? It's a whole other battle ground for us and something that will be pointed out to the therapists. Sorry for seeming a bit touchy on this subject but I really have struggled with this particular subject and the battles were awful. Just another way of DS trying to control.

Oooops sorry, I did get you confused with other poster.

I can't advise on diet as my ds is a great eater and has a really varied diet .... but, I would never entertain any fizzy drinks, any squashes with Aspartum in them (or any other artificial sweetner), chocolate or sugary cereals, bacon (only from organic farmers market), supermarket bread (white or brown), sweets, chocolate bars or any pre-packed ham or meals. Am I stating the obvious, sorry if I have.

He also has Eye-Q or Eskimo Kids Omega 3,6 & 9 supplements daily.

Hi Ladies thanks for all the advice, hope everyone has a good week. (and our DC behave and stop us all worrying), although accordin to my dad, parents never stop worrying .

I personally don't think my DD2 has ADD or autism etc, otherwise as chocciedooby says she would be the same at school.

chocciedooby thanks I hope holiday is ok, desperate need a break (mostly from behaviour), but as DH will be there at least it will be shared.

my DD2 also is very fussy eater, won't eat sandwiches or snack type food, has to be a proper meal, and she loves really spicy food. (Not that I give it too her that often). I also have looked at diet etc,but Health visitor said that this is not causing her behaviour.

I feel like I've got brain ache trying to figure out whats going wrong. Ontop of that my DD1 has spent the day whinging when she doesn't get what she wants. (although this is just typical 5 year old whinging - probably excited over holiday).