Calling all Mum's of demanding kids - are your fuses as short as mine? :( sorry, bit long)

[balanomorey]

Am wondering if I'm normal or in need of anger management!!
My coming up to 3 yo dd is so demanding, I seem to spend 3 parts of my day bawling her out or saying no - it's so demorilising - I'm sure for her too, although I know I have to set boundaraies, don't I?

Her speech and awareness of what's going on around her is, imo sometimes gobsmacking for her age. She knows exactly what she wants, can ask (demand) for it very articulately and comes out with expressions that very often floor me! She seems to know too much at a young age. But as she is so young, she is obviously so very immature in many other ways and always wants to run before she can walk ("I do it" is her favourite expression) and when i say no, because imo what she is asking for she can't do or it is dangerous to have etc, she goes off on one. She also takes forever to do what I ask - all in all, she can be SOOOO frustrating - but at the same time, adorable and I lurve her to bits!

However, as I said all this continual conflict of interest is wearing me down as I am constantly saying no and shouting to the point where she will say 'don't shout at me' before bursting into tears or she will panic if she knows or thinks she's done something wrong as she will say "sorry, sorry, sorry" over and over and looks genuinely scared I'm going to tear her off a strip .

Feel really bad this morning as we were late getting to nursery and she suddenly decided just as we were going out the door that she needed the potty. I was not best pleased as she has used the potty as an excuse lately to keep getting out of bed or stall bedtime...she sits there for ages insisting she needs to go and nothing happens, so assumed she was playing this game again. This happened last night at 3 in the morning (the sides have just come off her cot, and I think she thinks this is a great excuse for disturbing the household in the middle of the night now that she can get out and tell us she needs a wee)...so this morning I bawled her out for needing the potty (frazzled on the back of a bad night, maybe) and felt awful as she then proceeded to do a big wee...told me to say sorry for shouting at her...and told me how much she loves me ..so have been feeling guilty and crap mum all morning.

Just a bit of a rant really, but make me feel better by telling me I'm not unusual to shout - I hate shouting and am fed up of spending a large part of my day bawling and getting wound up. Am I alone in this?
Thanks for reading, sorry so long, just needed to vent. x.

ActingNormal, I think you are very brave to post your list and I don't see why anyone would want to be horrible to you. You know these things are wrong and I admire you for addressing them.

You say you feel you are doing everything wrong. To help you balance things up a bit and feel a bit more confident, can you take some time to think about the things you have done right? When you have been gentle and considerate with your DCS....

Oh, and are all these things done when you are in a rage?
If so, what have you tried to control your rage? Counting to 10 etc???

ActingNormal, sorry about all these posts. Lots of thoughts buzzing through my head having read your list.

For the sibling stuff, I find it helps to expect them to wind each other up and rather than taking it personally, just to treat it as boredom and offer an attractive distraction to the culprit or both.
If they are not hurting one another or complaining to you, go into another room and see how they sort it out by themselves.

Thanks k123 and Otherside for comments -helpful both of you.

Actingnormal I hardly have time today to think never mind post but will respond. Well done for posting that list.

Hi all
Interesting posts since I looked in yesterday. DD in meltdown at the moment - dh trying to deal with it, will pop back tomorrow to post. Second the others - great acting for posting that list. I too, and dh by his own admission, have been guilty for rough handling when pushed to the limits - once again you aren't alone in that one.x.

AN, you are brave for posting your worst moments. But I can assure you, you are not alone. For example, I have:

• Lost it so badly with DD once that she said to me 'You're a bully' which completely stopped me in my tracks.

I am quite often muttering under my breath at DD 'You stupid btch' when she is deliberately mucking about when she is supposed to be getting dressed for school, when she interrupts which she does CONSTANTLY, when she comes to me for the umpteenth time with a naked to the invisible eye scratch/spot/bump.

*One thing that is always guaranteed to set me off is trying to teach/help her to read. She seems to be bright and advanced in many ways but not in her reading and when she can't sound out/remember simple words I get frustrated/impatient/angry and have only just stopped short of calling her stupid. A while ago I just gave up on trying to read with her as I found myself getting so angry with her but tried again tonight and guess what....I am now in an extremely bad mood because she couldn't read the most simple book, the sort she has been bringing home for about 2 years now. I keep telling myself she's only 5 and just learning to read but nevertheless I feel my blood starting to boil as soon as she makes what I see as really silly mistakes.

• I can relate to the rough handling although that seems to be one I have managed to eradicate completely...... but then I think my shouting makes up for it ie verbal assaults instead of physical.....just as bad really.

I think I am at my worst when I haven't had any time or enough time in the day to myself. I know every mum needs 'me' time, but I seem to need a lot more than most. I remember a few occasions when for whatever reason both DC's were out of the house til around 5.30/6pm meaning that once I had picked them up all i had to do was feed them, chat/play for a bit and then put them to bed and i actually enjoyed the hour or so i spent with them.

When I end up spending 12/13 hours a day with one/both of them, sometimes without a break if DS doesn't nap.....well I turn into a seething, angry, snappy, short tempered, scary monster.

I have increased DS's afternoons at nursery, but I feel HUGE gut wrenching guilt about leaving him there and fret about him the whole time he is there.

Quite frankly I think I am in no way shape or form cut out to be a mother to young children but of course there is no way out of this situation other than 'through' it. ie somehow get through it day by day until DS starts full time school. I am fervently hoping that by having a lot of the day to myself I will be a lot more patient/nicer/tolerant of the DC's when they are around. And also I will find them less boring as we will be able to do things that I enjoy as well.

I'm sorry if my post is at a tangent to other posts, I haven't read the whole thread, but from what i have read, i think i'm in the right place.

Oneplusone and AN
Regarding the rough handling I too have been guilty of this occasionally towards my DSs. I haven't experienced it with DD but she is still very young and doesn't provoke the same feelings of annoyance, frustration and anger within me.
I haven't done it for sometime, even though I have felt bloody angry at times especially when they fight/ hurt eachother then scream and cry for me to comfort them. Recently I have stopped and thought why they are doing it, and usually realise they have not eaten recently, or had a late bed time the previous night. When I feel there is a practical explanation it seems to calm me and prevent me from reacting in a way I will later regret.
One of you AN, or Oneplusone wrote something on Mumsnet recently, can't remember where which has really, really helped me. You were talking about how your DC can be extremely demanding after school. On the walk home they are just nasty and cross. You explained that as their Mum you have to contain this in some way, not react. Both my DSs have a tendency to be really hostile towards me after school. I find it very difficult as it seems so wrong when we have been separated all day. In the past I have taken it a bit personally when they are nasty to me, but since reading the post(whenever it was), I have tried to contain the DSs frustration and anger by just putting it down to their tiredness and having to be good boys all day. We end up having a far more pleasant evening when I just let this nasty/cross behaviour go. I will tell them I don't like it but then try and divert their attention, which is not always that easy.

I am waffling but just wanted to let you know that I find your posts really helpful.

Just out of interest, oneplusone, what are you doing about the anger that you are feeling? I mean, a lot of people have posted their experiences of what their flashpoints are, and discussed how they are trying to improve things?

I'm only asking, as I think that for this to be a balanced thread, and not as TwinkleLittleStar posted further up, just a forum for mothers to "collude" with each other (as someone put it, can't remember who) and excuse their bad behaviour, there has to be some discussion of ways we are trying to deal with things. Or strategies we have found successful that may help other posters.

i have made a great effort to plaster on a smile to dd when she is testing my patience and that really does seem to work with her, the more angry i get, the worse she behaves, but the nicer i am, the quicker she calms down and, well i wouldnt say behaves, but as close to as she can get.

rachelp.....what am i doing about my anger? Well, the answer to that is on the 'stately homes' thread. We are now onto part 4 of that thread so if you want to read it all you will be reading around 700 pages (if you print it out) worth of material.

That should give you an idea of the complexity of the problem, it's actually very difficult to explain in a nutshell.

But, compared to around a year ago, the amount of times I have completely 'lost the plot' with DD (it never seems to happen with DS) is virtually zero. I do still get cross with her, but i am so much more in control of myself than i was before. The incident i mentioned in my post where DD called me a bully was around 2 years ago.

It is an ongoing process but I am infinitely better than i was at expressing my anger in such a way that it does not cause anyone any harm.

well done oneplusone for dealing with it, you do sound like you have it all together now.

ActingNormal, just thought I'd throw in a few ideas about your situations. Totally just my own opinion, so others might disagree:

1. DD wouldn't stop aggravating DS and making him cry. I lost it and picked her up, walked into the other room with her and dumped her on the sofa to watch TV away from him. But I did it really roughly, really slammed her down on the sofa and shouted in anger. She cried because I did it so hard it hurt her. Other times I have also moved her about too roughly because I'm so angry.

to me, it is a total natural reaction to be annoyed at your DD for upsetting your DS for no apparent reason. You and she both know she has to be punished for doing it, but I also know how hard it is to try and distinguish between genuine physical pain in that situation to whinging about it purely out of wounded pride. I personally would hesitate to call that situation abusive. I am sure every parent of 2 feuding siblings has been through similar.

1. Pushing the children roughly away from me when they won't leave me alone and are hanging around me and I can't take anymore.

again, I have sympathy here. I guess the trick is to tell them to leave you alone BEFORE you've got to the pushing away stage. It MUST seem like they've been rejected if it's done that way, whereas it might help all round if you just warn them in advance that "Mummy is feeling tired, and wants 10 mins peace to read the paper/have a cup of tea. I do NOT want any interruptions during that time, otherwise I will be short-tempered with you later on and you don't like it when I shout, remember?"

1. Some days when I really feel I can't cope I have repeatedly said things like "Go away from me, I don't want you near me, I don't want to talk, I want to be on my own, I'm not doing anything for you, I don't want to do it anymore, I'm just waiting for you to go to bed and get away from me, you talk too much, I don't want to listen to your drivel all the time".

ActingNormal, I am guessing that you know yourself that this type of thing could impact on your DC's self-esteem and behaviour. What I'd do again is similar to number 2. Be aware of when your own feelings are getting out of hand, and PHYSICALLY remove yourself from them, rather than remove THEM from YOU. Go to a different room with a cup of tea, put a DVD on for DC and instruct them as for number 2. Alternatively, when I get into that situation where their behaviour is just irritating me is, I just get a newspaper, hide behind it, and switch off. Just muttering the odd "Hmmm....really?.....that's nice.....is that so?" But the point is, you are distinctly not listening to their whingeing or whatever. Hopefully they'll get bored and go off to play!

1. When DD is having irrational fears I have sometimes got so fed up of her going mad over every little thing that I've called her a drip and a baby and said she is being stupid and ridiculous. I've tried to make her do things that scare her eg. going into a room on her own to get something and have been unsympathetic about her fears.

The way I deal with stuff like this, irritating though it is, is try and remember what silly things I myself find scary, and try and put myself in their shoes. Even if it means going back to childhood memories of being scared of the dark, try and do it and imagine that to them, the fear is not irrational. Bite your lip, go into the room with her and as time goes on, she will get over irrational fears naturally as she gets older.

1. During bathtimes when she just would not co-operate and it felt like bathtime would go on forever and she was going to scream at me and sometimes hit me whatever I did, I sometimes used to forcibly hold DD still and wash her and tip water over her even though it made her scream (the water temperature was fine and DS was quite happy having his bath at the same time with her). I seem to have got bathtimes sorted though now (see one of my previous posts).

ActingNormal, in no way could this be described as abusive. Children HAVE to be washed whether they like it or not. The trick is finding a solution where the situation is made pleasant for everyone, and it sounds like you've got it sorted now anyway.

1. Sometimes when DD has made DS cry I've said horrible things like "You are horrible and nobody will like you if you behave like this. We don't want to be near you when you are like this".

You know, most parenting experts advise saying something along those lines when a chlid is being mean to another child. It's just about explaining the consequence of being nasty to someone else. It is TRUE that in life if you treat people badly they will turn away from you and not want to spend time with you, it is right that we teach our children that important lesson. It is no point us as parents accepting nasty behaviour and saying "ah, there, there, don't worry that you upset your brother, we forgive you." I genuinely believe that they should learn that no-one wants to be around someone who is downright nasty to others. However, when my sons make each other cry, I also follow that type of thing up with an explanation of why they must apologise to their brother and a "How would YOU like it if your brother took your favourite toy and stamped on it?", and get them to see why their brother is so upset. Then when they apologise, you know that it comes from the heart (mostly!), and not just because I or their dad is just TELLING them to apologise!

Hope that's helped a bit and not been too preachy or whatever. Again, just posting what works in OUR house. Sounds like you've been through some tough times in the past. (((((((hugs))))))))))

Oneplusone, ooooh, I've seen that thread listed so many times and been put off by the length of it. Always imagined it might be interesting though - might print it off and have a read in bed later. Especially as you say things are so much better now, you are obviously doing something right!

So why haven't my asterisks emboldened the bloody bits I want emboldened?!?!?

OtherSideOC, Yes, when I behave badly it is because I am in a rage. What have I tried as anger management in the moment - I seem to forget to think about what I'm doing. The times that I have remembered, sometimes doing something really silly and making the children laugh has worked. The thing I'm trying to do at the moment is just stop, focus on my 'insides' going still and look at the children, I mean really look and actually see them - the details of what they look like, how much I love what they look like, how they look like they are feeling and what they are needing in that moment. When I remember to do it, it calms me right down and the answer to what to do for the best just seems to come to me. But how do I remember to do it every time before I have reacted?

Things that I do right - don't want to go into detail as I don't want to feel I am saying the bad things don't matter because I'm doing good things as well, but when I am good I am really good. I must seem like Jekyll and Hyde to the kids and on my different posts. I feel like deep down and instinctively I know what I should be doing but a lot of the time I don't do it because of the mood I'm in. When I'm feeling good the kids are normally good. I often say to DH when I look frazzled and he asks me if the kids have been bad "I'm not sure if they have been bad or if it is ME that has been bad".

OnePlusOne, Mimizan etc thank you for also sharing. I feel less alone. I think that it isn't only about knowing what methods to use when our children are being challenging but understanding what makes us feel so intensely when they do it and working on our own issues. I think having your own issues from childhood as well as having spirited children makes it even harder! I'm not saying this is an excuse, just that it makes it harder.

ActingNormal: just to go back to your point number 6: I read somewhere that it's quite important to actually call the BEHAVIOUR horrible, and not the actual child. I suppost it's so the child feels she can actually CHANGE her behaviour, whereas she is who she is, personality-wise, IYSWIM, and might feel "labelled" as horrible and therefore stuck with acting out the "horrible" label. Or something like that! Am just regurgitating half-remembered things from parenting books that I rmember to actually DO with my kids, but forget exactly WHY!

rachelp, of course you are welcome to read the 'stately homes' thread. But, it could be likened a little bit to opening Pandora's Box, so be prepared!

But, although I feel as if I have been on a long and at times very painful journey, back to my own childhood, it has been well worth it for the positive change I have seen in myself and therefore my DC's.

And the journey has not yet ended.

ActingNormal, now there's something we all find difficult, isn't it? How to recognise the point of no return - the point at which we just do snap and can't think what to do for the best. It's sometimes really hard to see it coming, I agree. I've made a conscious effort to take notice of when my voice is just becoming louder/shriller/more on edge each time I say something to the kids about their behaviour. When these alarm bells start telling me that I am on the run-up to losing control and SHOUTING, THAT is the point where I take myself off to another room. Doesn't always work though, I know.....

Thank you Rachel, I will think about your suggestions and visualise myself doing them to see if I think it will work for me. You said some really reassuring things as well, thank you.

i am so intrigued re the much-mentioned stately homes thread. what is it? where is it to be found? (i still don't understand mumsnet well enough to find it for myself). in fact, can it please be summarised in about two paras for arse-lazy k123??!

rachel - you are truly the fount of all wisdom (i knew this already but it's good to have it confirmed )and i bow down before you in awe. by the way, we have clearly both been doing a little bit of soul-searching in the light of TLS's posts bcs i have also been a little concerned about seeming collusive in the aftermath of her comments. the thought of being considered self-congratulatory was very unpleasant to me too. i am being a little more careful in how i post from now on.

AN - nothing to add to the last few posts, except for my sympathy and respect for your honesty. it will all get better, i am absolutely sure of that.

oneplusone - cannot tell you how life transformed for me when DD went to school. because i get a rest of several hours a day from her intensity, whether at home or at work, i recharge my batteries and can therefore deal with her so much better and ENJOY her so much more now. like you i have a huge need for time alone or in adult company, without which i go slightly unhinged!! (no, not in an abusive way i hasten to add...not that i'm paranoid on this thread these days or anything !) ... and indeed, did go a bit unhinged, during the years 3-5 (when we also moved countries every year for three years, would you believe, an astonishing example of how to make a rod for your own (and change-averse DD's poor) back in retrospect, argh!! so i really, really sympathise with you on that one. stay strong and try to ringfence even a tiny amount of time to yourself each week - i used to manage 2 hours a week at your stage and used to savour every micro-second of it!!

just caught up with all you busy posters - rachel totally agree SO important to label behaviour, NOT child, negatively. i know this is sometimes considered overdone (eg by my parents, who think i am amusingly pedantic on this one) but i really think it's vital. AN it's fine to come down really strongly on a child's bad behaviour, and by making it the behaviour rather than the child you're calling horrid/unacceptable/unpleasant etc it makes it far less of a blow to the child's self-esteem.

...christ, i don't know why i am even bothering to try to pretend to be any sort of expert - if you'd seen me this morning walking my kids to school then having to intervene as DD lashed out at DS then screamed with rage at his 'daring' to remonstrate - all this in pouring rain under umbrellas and in wellies on a narrow country lane - while an elderly woman stopped her car to ask in plummy tones 'whether you need any assistance, dear' tempted to reply 'yes if you could just take these two children away, rear them into decent (plummy) individuals then return them to me aged 18 i'd be ever so grateful'

Katiek- Sorry haven't learnt how to do mumsnet links . For Stately Homes thread, click on Topics, then click on Relationships and if you scroll down you should find the thread.

Katiek, Topic list at the top of this page, then Relationships in Body and Soul.

Great posts, people! All that wisdom. Oh and BTW Katiek I think the only parenting experts are non-parents who have watched an episode or two of nanny911 (or whatever it's called)

It did bring up sadness for me reading the lists people have come up with here but I understand as I must have at least felt like doing most of those things at some point. I too have been a bit harsh handling my Ds on a few occasions (I can think of things like plonking him in the pushchair over emphatically when he just wont get in, or snatching things abruptly out of his hands when I've already told him 5 times not to do whatever it was etc). I don't think I have ever deliberately caused pain or harm to him, but I shocked or frightened myself enough a couple of times and had those 'what if'' thoughts such as "What if in taking him out of that highchair at that stupid speed I had actully banged his head on that shelf - would he have survived?!' etc. And I imagine he must have had a felt sense of the strength of my anger at times even if I haven't actually shown anything in my manner. I have also in sheer exasperation said such things as 'Shut up now' or 'Go away'.

I do not want to misuse my power as an adult in any way. I'm often painfully aware how utterly vulnerable my Ds is just being such a small child and what a huge responsibility it is to have such power and influence over another human being.

A few personal strategies:

I try warning myself when I know I am going to be more volatile generally (E.g PMT ).

I find it worth remembering - as others so rightly mention here - that children are like intuitive precision-radars and seem to reflect back our state of mind sometimes even before we know what's going on with ourselves. They pick up on stress levels, unhappy vibes or short fuses and somehow reflect them back to us parents in 'bad' behaviour much like one of those exaggerated circus mirrors. So when I can remember this as I start being annoyed with my DS I try to become more aware of my own mental state and to manage it better. If I'm successful I find I can manage my Ds better (and he usually seems happier when I calm down anyway so it often takes away the need to 'manage' the child). Often I realise I am preoccupied with something totally unrelated to the child but I haven't had time or space to deal with so it is 'leaking' into how I relate to him.

The difficulty with stress as a parent of a young child is you don't always have even a minute to actually physically go anywhere else to take time out, reflect, take deep breaths, write a diary or whatever. If I find myself getting to that tightly-stretched feeling I now also try deliberately giving my Ds something I know will absorb him for 10-20 minutes (an episode of Night Garden - magic!) and get far enough away to get a grip on myself and/or recharge my own batteries somehow. Bringing a bit of pleasure into my experience can be helpful - through a song (blasting out something -having a dance), reading the paper, sitting with my eyes closed in the sun for five minutes, hiding under the duvet - anything.

If my DP is around and I'm just done-in with childcare I can ask him to take DS for a specific time, to the park or for a bath (awed respect to all single parents out there who don't have this option).

What I really haven't sorted out recently is taking enough literal time out away from my Ds to do other things. I haven't organised enough baby-sitting or enough activities for myself to even 'merit' baby-sitting. This is largely because I have been living abroad for some time but not long enough to have found my feet here, plus not employed here yet and not much in the way of circuit of friends or family around me.

ActingNormal, so pleased to see you say "when I am good, I am really good" but I do understand your reasons for not expanding.

Agree with Rachel about telling your children in a kind way when you need some space as early on as possible. Make it about you and not about them.

When they are being unkind to other children or even accidentally upsetting them, I tend to say 'look how it makes so-and-so feel'. Mine have definitely developed empathy towards their peers/siblings whereas empathy towards adults is a new thing to DS who is 5.5.

Oh, and when they are being whingy/whiny and I've had enough I put my hands over my ears and say 'all I can hear is waah, waah, waah' while pulling a whiny child face which makes them laugh. Then I try to get them to state their problem in a pleasant voice so we can work on it.

Like everyone has said, definitely label the behaviour and not the child, for both criticism and praise.

Rachel, I think you have to put the asterisks either side of every word.