Calling all Mum's of demanding kids - are your fuses as short as mine? :( sorry, bit long)

[balanomorey]

Am wondering if I'm normal or in need of anger management!!
My coming up to 3 yo dd is so demanding, I seem to spend 3 parts of my day bawling her out or saying no - it's so demorilising - I'm sure for her too, although I know I have to set boundaraies, don't I?

Her speech and awareness of what's going on around her is, imo sometimes gobsmacking for her age. She knows exactly what she wants, can ask (demand) for it very articulately and comes out with expressions that very often floor me! She seems to know too much at a young age. But as she is so young, she is obviously so very immature in many other ways and always wants to run before she can walk ("I do it" is her favourite expression) and when i say no, because imo what she is asking for she can't do or it is dangerous to have etc, she goes off on one. She also takes forever to do what I ask - all in all, she can be SOOOO frustrating - but at the same time, adorable and I lurve her to bits!

However, as I said all this continual conflict of interest is wearing me down as I am constantly saying no and shouting to the point where she will say 'don't shout at me' before bursting into tears or she will panic if she knows or thinks she's done something wrong as she will say "sorry, sorry, sorry" over and over and looks genuinely scared I'm going to tear her off a strip .

Feel really bad this morning as we were late getting to nursery and she suddenly decided just as we were going out the door that she needed the potty. I was not best pleased as she has used the potty as an excuse lately to keep getting out of bed or stall bedtime...she sits there for ages insisting she needs to go and nothing happens, so assumed she was playing this game again. This happened last night at 3 in the morning (the sides have just come off her cot, and I think she thinks this is a great excuse for disturbing the household in the middle of the night now that she can get out and tell us she needs a wee)...so this morning I bawled her out for needing the potty (frazzled on the back of a bad night, maybe) and felt awful as she then proceeded to do a big wee...told me to say sorry for shouting at her...and told me how much she loves me ..so have been feeling guilty and crap mum all morning.

Just a bit of a rant really, but make me feel better by telling me I'm not unusual to shout - I hate shouting and am fed up of spending a large part of my day bawling and getting wound up. Am I alone in this?
Thanks for reading, sorry so long, just needed to vent. x.

Hi Twinklelittlestar. Sorry you didn't answer or address any of the points made or questions concerning giving advice in a 'professional' capacity to perfect strangers on a message board.

I do not agree with you or see what you are referring to when you say: "there has been an imbalance of posters highlighting the emotional needs of parents at the expense of the child" . This thread started with someone asking if people thought she needed some anger management and whether her feelings were normal or shared by others on here. I thought the responses were very balanced, thoughtful and considerate looking both at the parent and child's perspective and feelings. People were both responding to BM and her dilemnas and sharing their own feelings/experiences about dealing with their own DCs.. I thought the original poster was wonderfully honest about her own failings in managing her angry emotions/actions, remorseful about any bad effect she may be having on her DD and seeking feedback from others about whether they had similar experience and how they might deal with similar stuff better. This made for a very interesting, open and useful discussion.

I think it would be a great shame if people felt inhibited now about sharing their experiences on this theme for fear of being pathologised, criticised as caring only for themselves and not their DCs or even worse - accused of being abusive. By the way, I regarded the original poster's experiences to be well within the bounds of normality.

good morning everyone, wow lots has happened sincei last posted on here!! i hope you all had good weekends, mine was not so good and i am glad to get to work for a break

sounds liek you all have it under control anyway

morning lizandlulu!yes it's all been happening here as you can see! sorry you had a bit of a ropey weekend . have a good day today tho

Hi all. Thanks for all your further posts. This morning after a night's sleep and a bit of reflection, I really felt initially that I didn't want to come back on and post anymore. Am so grateful for all the posts but I almost feel this subject has been covered from every angle and wondered what else we could squeeze out of the thread. But it is a support and it is nice to know it's there to share the good and the bad, so will keep looking in on it.

Yesterday's rather unpleasant afternoon's posting has, as some of you say, been a further wake up call for acknowledging the need to chill out and ease up on dd. While I've been extremely upset by what you said twinkle and think you've been extremely unprofessional, it's made me more determined to put it right.

Thanks Acting for the honesty of your post - so glad bathtime was such a positive experience for you and dd, seems like you've really cracked a hard nut!!

Twinkle - you may well have thought that you were helping me by posting and for that I thank you for taking the time to do so...but it was darned unprofessional to make an assessment based on the scanty facts I typed on the back of a rant. Yes, I do have a bit of emotional baggage and I might want an easy life - who dosn't? - but bottom line, it's dds wilfulness that's draining me - and baggage or not, I need to deal with it more effectively. i realise that 100%

You state you did not suggest dd needs any phsychology - but you did say "It seems that your own life experiences are impacting in an detrimental way on your way of relating to her" & "What you describe is not a healthy situation and will undoubtedly already be having an negative impact on dd self esteem."...so do you mean because of me, she might need some one day? You have made me feel like she will do You then seem to backtrack a bit by saying that she's normal and is responding as you might expect . I'm a little confused.
I would also like to take the opportunity to defend the posters on this thread - not once have I felt redeemed in any way that others have admitted being tried and tested by their dc's behaviour too. It's just gone some way to make me feel that it isn't too abnormal to feel like I sometimes do, although I might shout a bit more than others. I still appreciate the problem I have and want to sort it out.

Thanks skydancer - you have been the person that has stopped me from really feeling like a failure over all this. Thank you for saying you feel my behaviour is "within the bounds of normality" - it won't make me complacent and I want to change but thank you for reassuring me that I am human and vaguely normal.x.

I may have a breather for a bit as my head's spinning a bit with all this - need time to read and digest all the info for a bit...will be back sometime soon. x.

I don't know why I'm posting again, I'll probably just get in trouble, but this thread is really getting to me.

I think you need to stop taking refuge in the idea that your toddlers are unusually 'spirited' or 'wilful' and that if they weren't you might have an easier life. They sound fairly normal.

I can understand sometimes why mother was so angry when we were young. She had three children under 5, the youngest with SN, and was thousands of miles from her family and friends. But maybe she would have been the same anyway. And when things should have got easier, when we were older, nothing changed. My parents could and fairly often did reduce us to tears at the dinner table shouting about some minor matter. Before you decide that everything is normal think about the relationship you want to have in 10 or 15 years with your daughter.

Actually I should say that I do have a fairly good relationship with my parents now. But this may be partly because I live in a different city, partly because, tragically, the death of my middle sister five years ago made us all need each other that much more and also partly because they did also always make it clear that they loved us. (My friend whose parents shouted much less but told her she was fat and ugly has way more ishooes). But they will never never acknowledge that there was anything wrong in the way they brought us up.

I think I should probably leave this thread now, it is certainly bringing out what issues I do have...

so because our children and a handful most of the time and can be more difficult than other kids, we have to grin and bear it, pretend that everything is ok and we are feeling smiley happy and wonderful all the tiem?

no, thats why we are on mumsnet talking through the bad times and trying to make them better nad learn how to handle these situations.

tryingtoleave - I'm not 'taking refuge' in the fact that my child is spirited. I am not a naturally 'angry' person, ie someone with an angry grumpy demeanor, it's just not me. I'm like someone else when I get angry - that's probably why I don't like it. When dd is being a good girl I am not angry. Before I had dd, I was not angry. My patience IS tested BECAUSE my dd IS wilful - that's just the way it is and I'm trying to address this. I do not shout at my dd or get angry with her for no reason - the frequency of my anger correlates with the number of times per day she does something naughty/dangerous/says something inappropriate etc etc etc. As a parent, I have to set boundaries and am trying to find a different path to the shouting/smacking one - that is all this is about. I am not abusive. I do not shout at dd just becuase I feel like it. I am trying to be patient - it worked yesterday as I was heartbroken to discover she'd broken the ear off a musical Beatrix Potter figurine which was the gift dh and I gave her for her first Xmas, so is sentimental. I didn't shout at her. In my mind I reasoned she is just inquisitive and it was MY fault for leaving it on a shelf that I thought she wouldn't reach, but she so obviously can. I am learning and I want to change. I don't just shout for the hell of it!

Tryingtoleave, your description of your parents shouting at the dinner table for some minor matter does sound abusive. A family sitting around a table eating a meal with two adults constantly picking on the DC, is not the same as a Mum shouting at her DC as a reaction to stop them from something dangerous/inappropriate.

It does sound like you have some 'ishoos' to resolve from your own childhood. These 'ishoos' are completely different to the ones the OP is asking for support for. The OP and other posters on the thread are self-aware and working to try and improve the way they deal with their DC's more challenging behaviour. We all know it is unhelpful to shout, and are working on strategies to reduce this.

Balanomorey, nice to see you still posting! And a good post too, about you realising the broken figurine was just an accident.

Tryingtoleave: I have to disagree with your assumption that our toddlers sound fairly normal. From the sound of it most of the people who have posted on here have posted for a reason, and that is because they identify the sheer stress that some of our toddlers's behaviour puts on us. I am a mum to two lovely boys,4 and 2. My 4 year old was, and is a breeze on the whole. Very laid-back, is hardly ever naughty, hates being told off, knows when he's gone too far etc. He has ALWAYS been like that. He has done the usual "normal" wilful toddler things, but I have found being a parent to him much easier, as he responds to discipline really well, and just, well, behaves (!) after a telling off (I don't mean shouting, I just mean reprimanding him for bad behaviour and explaining it was wrong.)

DS2, on the other hand, has been a different kettle of fish from day 1. Always crying and demanding SOMETHING the minute he left the womb! His whingeing has known no bounds. Sometimes he just seems to whinge out of habit. He is EXTREMELY hard to discipline as he will just not listen to reason and will just decide to "go off on one" when he can't get his own way. He will push you and push you and push you, and just not respond to a stern voice in any way whatsoever. We don't give into unreasonable demands but you would think we were the most unfair parents ever if you heard how he moans and whinges when we say no. I remember as a baby giving up taking him to baby & toddler groups and even to the park, as despite just haven't been fed/had a nap, he would just cry and cry that people would think that he WAS hungry or tired. I got complete strangers making random comments about what they thought he needed to stop him crying. They would look at me as if I didn't know what the hell I was doing as a parent, and I wanted to scream in their face "Well, look at my other DS, who is so calm and well-behaved, and who NEVER behaved like this one little bit, and who I have treated exactly the same". He has literally turned me grey and created wrinkles where there were none before.

I think THESE are the sort of toddlers that posters are referring to. They do exist, it's not all a figment of our imagination, or solely down to our treatment of them.

For what it's worth, I love my DS2 to bits, and now that his language is much improved, our reasoning with him about why he isn't allowed to do something is having much more of an effect too. I think he's been very frustrated in a toddler's body as he seems quite bright, and has just started nursery a couple of mornings a week, which he is enjoying. He is slowly becoming much better behaved, and as a result, my stress levels are finally coming down! The grey hairs and extra wrinkles are there forever though.

"despite just HAVING been fed/had a nap", I meant.

Yes just to back up Rachel's post. DD1 was a doddle to bring up she was a normal child and obviously there were 'normal' child testing of boundaries but DD2 is VERY different. She is spirited, wilful, determined and would test the patience of a saint but as outlined in an earlier post that also makes them great fun, VERY rewarding and hopefully a future star of her own making. This attitude and realisation of their 'abilities', 'will' or 'determination' comes at a price, they are bloody hard work. It has taken me 2 years of soul searching to now respond in a much more positive way to DD. I spent the first 2 years I am ashamed to say regretting the fact she was not like her elder sister and coming to terms with that. It has taken me all that time to adjust my mind set and see all the positives DD2 brings. In my opinion this is what the OP is all about, she realises she isn't handling her child in the best way and is asking others to help out in the way they have managed it with their spirited children. This has on the whole been a very positive thread of celebrating our children's abilities, no one is hiding behind a 'spirited' label. We are trying to help each other.

TTL, I am sorry you are having difficult feelings when the things you are reading remind you of how your parents were with you. It does make me feel guilty but also reminds me how important it is to work on my parenting.

I can see how it might look like we are comparing our abusive behaviours and giving each other excuses for it and going on about how it makes us feel when you know how it feels to be a child on the receiving end of it and you want the children to be heard.

Could this thread just be a trigger for you though and so the feelings you are having are more extreme than most people would expect you to have from this, because really it is unleashing the feelings from your childhood which were stronger than what the average person would feel when reading this thread.

I don't think most of the behaviours posters have talked about are abusive, everyone sometimes loses their patience after a day of their children's naughtiness, especially when their children are more hard work than other people's because they are spirited, and then they might shout or accidentally say something they wish they never said. The people on here are after advice on what to do when their children's behaviour makes them feel so bad that they feel like being abusive but don't want to be and want to find other methods that work instead.

It's when the shouting and negativity and excessive punishment is a lot of the time, enough to affect the children's self esteem, that it becomes abusive. I do feel that I may be negative enough of the time for it to be bordering on abusive and that is why I am seeing a therapist, and I am improving. I also find these threads really useful and it scares me that people might become too scared to create them. I don't really want people to know that I am, or have been an abusive parent but I want to be honest because these threads are no good to anyone without honesty. Also if I never admitted to myself that my behaviour is really bad I would never be able to change it and would end up like my parents who I vow never to be like.

Ah, Keevamum, I SO know what you mean when you say you spent the first 2 years of your DD2's life regretting she's not like her sister. I felt exactly like that too! I never showed it though - through the very fact that he WAS so demanding, DS2 has got more cuddles and attention than DS1 ever did (bless DS1 for putting up with it all!). I also used to resent DS2 for putting an end to those lovely, drama-free walks in the park that DS1 and I used to have. It took a long time to come to terms with the fact that DS2 was just DIFFERENT, and in fact, it is literally only the past few months that DH has stopped referring to him in private as "Asbo" or "Stewie" (from Family Guy)!!!! I used to pretend to be when he said things like that to me whenever we discussed the kids, but secretly I'd be laughing inwardly and thinking "Good nicknames!"

rachel, keeva - snap. LOL re your DH by the way rachel (er - if we're still allowed to laugh on this post )- exactly what i wanted to articulate as soon as i read tryingtoleave's post. it's been just the same for me - my 7-yr-old has been incredibly hard to manage from the beginning, for all the reasons you both eloquently describe, my 5 yr-old is a completely different experience in terms of child-rearing and this has also been the case from the beginning. i adore them both but my DD toddler years were indescribably hard - she seemed to lurch from crisis to crisis, tantrum to tantrum, from minute to minute more or less from the moment she woke up and the strain on me, but also on my family unit was immense. the negativity, the angry outbursts were so hard on us all, we'd always been calm and non-confrontational types, my DH and me, and suddenly a whirlwind was in our midst and we had to learn a whole new set of coping mechanisms to retain some sanity!

i really want to stress to tryingtoleave that it is a wholly different experience raising that sort of child to dealing with the normal day-to-day ups and downs of the average child. like rachel and keeva i only found this out after having my son ie being able to compare the two kids and realising that temperament is largely innate and can only be managed, not changed! as rachel and keeva also emphasise, i love my gorgeous, feisty daughter every bit as much as my more mellow, amiable son and she is blossoming as she leaves those tricky, frustration-laden toddler years behind - i reckon some kids just HATE being toddlers, she certainly did, she only really seemed HAPPY when she got to school age! - but confrontations remain a regular occurrence and always will, i suspect! not really shouty ones to be honest, in fact in i was never much of a shouter, more of a bottler-up-inside of all the stress, but that tendency of mine caused me now and again to really lose it when pushed to my absolute limit and i know how frightening that loss of control can be and how ashamed and guilty it makes you feel afterwards, just in the way that balanomorey has described. in my own case i reckon showing a bit more of my own anger towards DD (in a controlled way obviously!) might have been a good thing! i always restrained it all in order to present a calm and controlled facade at all times and i'm not sure that did either of us a favour!

Message withdrawn

Hi Balanomorey,

I am really glad that you do not feel like a failure because to me you sound like you are dealing with the problems you have written about here as best you can, both within yourself and without, and that to me is a mark of success and of courage - however far along you are with the process of actually changing things. I think making these efforts is surely also a testament of how much you love your DD. My view is that she will also know and feel your love for her, and that will mitigate/balance against whatever harshness or anger she has also experienced. Children - us humans - are remarkably resilient given the right amount of love and care. But yes it would be truly great if you could turn around patterns of behaviour you know aren't doing anyone any good now, while your DD is still very young.

I can really understand why anyone who has suffered any kind of verbal or physical harshness or abuse as a child would find this thread stirring, as it might easily seem as if people who are sharing problems in this area might somehow be colluding or trying to make it seem 'fine' to -for example - often shout at their DCs or explode in rages. However, I don't think that is what has been going on. I have found it really moving to read nearly everyone's struggles in different ways NOT to be harsh with or to harm their children.

I don't really know about the term 'spirited' children (it's just a word, right?) but I can definitely relate hugely to what many people on here have been writing about what they mean by their 'spirited' children. My delightful two year old is also secretly nicknamed (by my DP and I) 'The boss', 'The beast' and various other things (a bit too 'in-joke' to share). I haven't any other DC to compare him to (and at 42, probably wont now) but I was surprised at his forceful character even at aged 5 weeks. Maybe I should have realised at five days when he was in the SCBU and literally crawled up the plastic cot somehow and tipped the lid askew in an attempt to escape

My Ds is now being bang in the stage of wilful two year old tantrums and trying to teach him boundaries and him shouting "I'll do it!" (everything - cook, clean, wash up, drive a car, cut own nails, etc) and I have found myself feeling hugely angry and frustrated all too often when I've had a day of it. I tend to be more of the 'act calm, bottle it' mentality but can lose it occasionally and then I feel ashamed with myself. The worst hasn't been too awful objectively... raising my voice or seething with anger and letting that show in my voice, banging or throwing a few things around, stomping off and shouting outside for my neighbours entertainment . I'm not a violent person but I would say I'm fiery and can be aggressive (inwardly at least) when very riled or anxious. What has been so difficult being a parent is realising how much of my father's aggression I imbibed as a child (he was my main carer in the day from weeks old and my mother worked). My father suffered badly from anxiety (so much so he couldn't work by the time I came along) and he was extremely shouty and controlling most of the time. He'd swing between being too much in my face and then absent or even negligent (e.g: he'd leave me in the car or the house while he went off shopping, the pub etc, so he could have a break ).

Yes it's a shock when we feel like we're turning into our own parents isn't it (and not just in the mirror LOL)

But, crucially, we really don't have to repeat all their mistakes. I firmly believe that by bringing more awareness and understanding of our mental and emotional conditioning and limits (including any psychological wounding we have experienced as children) we can stop the damage right here in the present moment.

I think one key is to simply believe in your love for your child (and who hasn't had moments when you fantasise about passing them on to a good home? ) and to bring an attitude of forgiveness to those times when you haven't shown that in your behaviour or haven't behaved patiently or lovingly. Being a mum may be hugely rewarding but it's also a tough job.

Oh well I'm writing a pamphlet here (you can tell Ds is fast asleep). This thread has helped me as we've all been sick in this house for the past two weeks and I've been finding it a strain. So thanks all for writing.

lovely post skydancer and i agree - compassion to ourselves and to each other is so important. it's been a really big strength of this thread from the beginning. and of course you're right - 'spirited' is just a word - i use it bcs i found the book so very helpful, the spirited child book i mean, but it could equally well be any number of other adjectives describing a certain independent and fiery intrinsic essence!
my DH and used to call our DD 'the dark force'
robbierotten i feel for you. yes it really does get better. i have always loathed hearing from people the dreaded words 'ha! you think this is hard - wait until the teenage years'! for 2 reasons - one the total absence of comprehension on display, re quite how f*cking hard THIS stage was, and two - the seeming impossibility of being able to keep going with THIS amount of stress until the teenage years, then doubling or tripling it - argh!!

ps robbie r, re frustration - i have worked really hard from an early age to try to teach my DD the vocabulary of emotion. giving them the words to express those really scary, strong emotions that wash over them and that they have no ability to comprehend, far less articulate, is really helpful - for them and for you. have you ever seen those posters with faces on them with different expressions, subtitled 'happy' 'shocked' 'sorry' 'scared' etc? really worth getting for the kitchen wall! it took ages and it is obviously not possible when they're really young, but it's such a milestone when you can really talk to them about what's going on inside their head - or was, bcs it's usually in retrospect you have these chats of course, after the storm has passed. then you can empathise (i could see that was very frustrating for you) and make suggestions re how things could be done differently the next time.
also, compromise is key - my DD is very introverted and it took ages to be able to go to parties, on playdates etc, like you i used to worry about playdates and playgroups etc, especially big meet-ups with relatives (eg xmas day!!) - often i had to leave her in the car to read her book for 5 minutes or so while i was already greeting the people we were visiting, and she would come out in her own time and take her time, and be fine. one difficulty we've had is that i am an extrovert so our basic attitudes to the outside world clash! we've worked on that too though and i have to give her lots of quiet time between social events.

it all does get easier and she is much more able to talk about how she feels, also she knows that she and daddy are more introverted than me and my DS, she knows that they are more perfectionist and also that they both get anxious if things aren't done quite 'so', whereas DS and i are more laid-back (considered 'sloppy' by the other 2 needless to say!) - all of these things she can now take in and discuss with us and we can laugh about our differences and joke between us and use humour to get her through her challenging moments more. she still loses it though!! (homework...trying to learn to ride a bike...argh!) but then afterwards can talk about why it happened. it's all hard work but the rewards are gradually appearing so keep at it!!

Katiek thanks for that and "Dark force" LOL. No time to write as the Beast is back

Hi All

It is obvious that we all feel a lot for our DC and care deeply about them. If we didn't I hardly think we'd be spending as much time on here pontificating about them.

DH and I try our hardest to give the DC the best lives we can offer them. It is sheer hard work at times, and when the DC behave badly, show us up, whatever, it is upsetting. We are sometimes left wondering what are we doing wrong. Sometimes it is too difficult in RL to admit these defeats.

This thread has been a really good place to air some of these feelings. It is refreshing that people have been so honest. There has also been a lot of humour and that is really good.

I am so pleased people have carried on posting.

robbie - forgot to say, my DD went through months and months of insisting on wearing two long (knee-high) white socks to bed every night like the hero of an obscure kids' story by danielle steele (yes, that danielle steele) called 'max's daddy'. a fireman who broke both his legs in an act of heroic bravery.

this was a very serious issue in her eyes and at half 7 at night, we weren't keen to mess around either after a 13 hour day tussling with her will of iron. woe betide us if there were no white socks to hand (your nickname 'the boss' springs to mind here sky!!). we even took her to a wedding at that stage (3) and when asked by a lady what her name was she (grimly) replied 'max's daddy'. the nice lady wandered away looking a little confused

I have conflicts about how much to compromise with what my Ds wants and when to say a flat no or attempt to distract onto an alternative. This is a tricky one for me sometimes because Ds is insistent and almost obsessive about certain things he likes/wants (and it has to be 'right now' of course - or else it's a full scale tragedy - ala Katiek and 'Max's daddy' socks).

I had a friend stay with me for a week a while back and she thought I gave in too much to what DS wanted and was therefore making life harder for myself, but what I don't think she could really appreciate (apart from the fact that she isn't a parent ) was that I just wanted to avoid head on/full scale collisions with him all the time he was awake ! -and was actually diverting him quite a lot of the time anyway. For example, if he goes mad-max crazy about needing to do the dishes, I'd rather provide a bowl next to the sink (he stands on a chair and 'helps' me by doing his own 'dishes' (plastic items, small saucepans etc) than to have a screaming, tugging, shouting, hysterical tot there for 10 minutes.

Obviously there are total 'no-nos', from obvious dangers such as using/touching the oven to regular times when we want/need him to do something and he doesn't like it/want it happening just at that moment (nappy changes, going out, dressed, undressed, nursery, needing medication etc.). I am rattling on but what I wanted to say was that with a wilful, determined with a triple D toddler I seem to have decided to try to pick my battles carefully rather than live in a war zone. On the other hand I occasionally wonder if I have strayed into being too permissive and maybe my friend had a point. Any comments appreciated...

I feel I need to list these things I have done which seem abusive. These are the sort of things I want to stop doing. I feel if I write them it will help me to focus. I feel ashamed of myself, especially letting people know, but I want to feel this guilt to help me feel so bad that it might act as a deterrant. If anyone has ideas how I can deal with things differently in my mind and in practice 'in the moment' of madness I will be very grateful. Also feel free to be horrible to me about what I've done:

1. DD wouldn't stop aggravating DS and making him cry. I lost it and picked her up, walked into the other room with her and dumped her on the sofa to watch TV away from him. But I did it really roughly, really slammed her down on the sofa and shouted in anger. She cried because I did it so hard it hurt her. Other times I have also moved her about too roughly because I'm so angry.

1. Pushing the children roughly away from me when they won't leave me alone and are hanging around me and I can't take anymore.

1. Some days when I really feel I can't cope I have repeatedly said things like "Go away from me, I don't want you near me, I don't want to talk, I want to be on my own, I'm not doing anything for you, I don't want to do it anymore, I'm just waiting for you to go to bed and get away from me, you talk too much, I don't want to listen to your drivel all the time".

1. When DD is having irrational fears I have sometimes got so fed up of her going mad over every little thing that I've called her a drip and a baby and said she is being stupid and ridiculous. I've tried to make her do things that scare her eg. going into a room on her own to get something and have been unsympathetic about her fears.

1. During bathtimes when she just would not co-operate and it felt like bathtime would go on forever and she was going to scream at me and sometimes hit me whatever I did, I sometimes used to forcibly hold DD still and wash her and tip water over her even though it made her scream (the water temperature was fine and DS was quite happy having his bath at the same time with her). I seem to have got bathtimes sorted though now (see one of my previous posts).

1. Sometimes when DD has made DS cry I've said horrible things like "You are horrible and nobody will like you if you behave like this. We don't want to be near you when you are like this".

None of these things are as bad as the things that happened to me during childhood but I am so scared of them going through the same as me that I don't want to do anything that is anything like abuse. I feel if I started doing bad things they could escalate. Sometimes it is hard to know if I am so emotive and anxious about these things that I see everything I do as wrong but I do feel that these things above are bad.

sky - no real comments other than, you describe exactly my constant dilemma - when to give in, when to stand firm. it's so hard. but i cannot live in a permanent warzone, and have had to give in on occasions when i just wouldn't (and don't) with my other, more mellow child!!
preoccupied by AN's post which will go away and think about - respect to you AN for being so painfully frank.

Haven't reflected on AN's post (am running a bath at the mo) but would say to Skydancer not to worry about what your friend who has no experience thinks.

Bowl for him to splash while you wash up great idea.

"regular times when we want/need him to do something and he doesn't like it/want it happening just at that moment (nappy changes, going out, dressed, undressed, nursery, needing medication etc."

Obviously a dirty nappy needs to be changed fairly quickly but unless he has very sensitive skin, nothing wrong with waiting until he has finished a puzzle or whatever. Same with getting changed or going out unless there is a deadline. Going out to nursery different to going out to the park/shops etc.