Calling all Mum's of demanding kids - are your fuses as short as mine? :( sorry, bit long)

[balanomorey]

Am wondering if I'm normal or in need of anger management!!
My coming up to 3 yo dd is so demanding, I seem to spend 3 parts of my day bawling her out or saying no - it's so demorilising - I'm sure for her too, although I know I have to set boundaraies, don't I?

Her speech and awareness of what's going on around her is, imo sometimes gobsmacking for her age. She knows exactly what she wants, can ask (demand) for it very articulately and comes out with expressions that very often floor me! She seems to know too much at a young age. But as she is so young, she is obviously so very immature in many other ways and always wants to run before she can walk ("I do it" is her favourite expression) and when i say no, because imo what she is asking for she can't do or it is dangerous to have etc, she goes off on one. She also takes forever to do what I ask - all in all, she can be SOOOO frustrating - but at the same time, adorable and I lurve her to bits!

However, as I said all this continual conflict of interest is wearing me down as I am constantly saying no and shouting to the point where she will say 'don't shout at me' before bursting into tears or she will panic if she knows or thinks she's done something wrong as she will say "sorry, sorry, sorry" over and over and looks genuinely scared I'm going to tear her off a strip .

Feel really bad this morning as we were late getting to nursery and she suddenly decided just as we were going out the door that she needed the potty. I was not best pleased as she has used the potty as an excuse lately to keep getting out of bed or stall bedtime...she sits there for ages insisting she needs to go and nothing happens, so assumed she was playing this game again. This happened last night at 3 in the morning (the sides have just come off her cot, and I think she thinks this is a great excuse for disturbing the household in the middle of the night now that she can get out and tell us she needs a wee)...so this morning I bawled her out for needing the potty (frazzled on the back of a bad night, maybe) and felt awful as she then proceeded to do a big wee...told me to say sorry for shouting at her...and told me how much she loves me ..so have been feeling guilty and crap mum all morning.

Just a bit of a rant really, but make me feel better by telling me I'm not unusual to shout - I hate shouting and am fed up of spending a large part of my day bawling and getting wound up. Am I alone in this?
Thanks for reading, sorry so long, just needed to vent. x.

I just had a read back over this thread as it was quiet and found the stuff about how deeply boring childcare can be (when the DC are smaller) and it made me laugh. Mimizan talking about how a friend of hers could do all that play acting imaginary stuff for hours and someone else saying how people who are like that are so helpful but aren't they a bit mad/weird LOL. It reminded me of when we had some guests to stay for a few days in the summer? a friend through work and his wife whom I didn?t really know beforehand. I confess that at first I found his wife a bit odd and a bit of a drippy bore but then discovered she was an absolute genius at relating to my DS in terms of engaging with constant role-play, repetitive dialogues, imaginary scenes?I mean she could do it for well over an hour at a stretch happily! I decided she was a great guest immediately.

Hi makka. Sorry to hear about your pnd.

ActingNormal and OnePlusOne: have just been having a quick look at the Stately Homes thread. I could cry at some of the situations described on there by you both and the other posters.

But I just had to say to you both how brilliant you are for actually trying to change things for your own DC after the really quite shitty upbringing you have experienced yourselves. It also made me understand how bloody hard employing empathy techniques with your children must be. I mean, when your DC are kicking up a huge fuss about something trivial, I have said that the way I deal with that is try and put myself in their shoes and realise that to them that it isn't trivial. Now that I've read your posts on the other thread, I can understand that you must surely be thinking in those situations "Oh, FGS, if THAT'S all you've got to whinge about then you're bloody lucky".

The other thing I can see now is that it kind of explains how much reassurance you want that you are doing the right thing. If you have only ever experienced bad parenting yourself, you are bound to be unsure about what is good parenting and what is ok and what is downright shit. It makes it that much harder for you both, and I can really appreciate that now.

And lastly, can I just say, that apart from a bit of shouting and the odd smack (that probably happened in most people's houses growing up in those days), my childhood was just about perfect. I could cry for everyone who has not experienced that, and I have so much respect for you both for trying to turn things around and really trying SOOO hard to make your own DC's childhoods so much better than your own. I can really see that having your own children must stir up bad memories from your own childhood and that the parts that the rest of us mums find stressful enough are 10 times more stressful for mums like you to deal with.

((((((hugs, guys))))))))

agree with rachel 100% AN and oneplusone. i had a look on the stately homes thread yesterday and felt in awe of what you people on there have been through and are now doing as a result of your past. i felt like i was trespassing to be honest and soon tip'toed out again - but massive respect to you all, for all the reasons that the ever-eloquent rachel sets out.

Welcome Makkapakka Fantastic you are finding this helpful.

Skydancer- my friend who is great at imaginary play loves seeing our DC but freely admits she can only manage one overnight stay with us. She then returns to her child-free house and sleeps for about 24 hours to recover.

I have been trying to put myself in the DC's shoes it bit more. This morning DS was awkward again, he was insisting he had to take his Man City cap to school with him. However we didn't know where it was and we were late. I acknowledged that he really wanted it, but explained we had to get to school in time. I said we would find it when he came home. He wasn't convinced and I had to walk off so he'd follow, but I didn't shout and didn't threaten to cancel his party. I'm not feeling guilty now either, so it was a win, win, win situation.

Rachel and Katie, thank you. Your posts brought tears to my eyes. You are very kind. Also clever - this bit is SO right:

"If you have only ever experienced bad parenting yourself, you are bound to be unsure about what is good parenting and what is ok and what is downright shit."

I'm scared to do anything remotely similarly to my parents (even though some of what they did might have been right!), because I don't want my DCs to feel the way I felt, but then I go the other way and I'm not sure if I am going too far the other way. I find it hard to find a middle way and am trying to learn what is normal from people who I consider to be 'normal'. MN is a wonderful way to learn about lots of other people's approaches and views rather than only having my parents' skewed view as a role model.

At the moment my parenting seems to go from one extreme to the other and I'm sure my children don't know 'who' I am going to be from one day, or sometimes one hour, to the next.

Therapist said it is due to my lack of understanding and implementation of boundaries, not just boundaries of what behaviour, eg hitting, is ok and what is not but personal boundaries of how much demand you allow people to put on you and how much you allow them to take from you. He said if I don't sort out my own boundaries I won't be teaching the children what boundaries are generally acceptable with other people they will interact with.

Eg. DD wants lots of attention. I feel I should give it to her because I didn't get much and I know how that feels. I don't ever want to say no to her because it feels like I'm rejecting her and I know that rejection feels horrible. So I let her be all over me, giving me no space, for a time until I suddenly can't take it anymore so I swing the other way and tell her to get away from me etc (rejecting her too much, when this situation came about in the first place because I was scared to reject her a little bit).

Does this make sense?

AN

makes TOTAL sense. i have a tendency towards poor boundaries myself in a less extreme way. i have not been good at setting boundaries with my extremely attention-seeking demanding DD (as am sure is sometimes clear from the situations i describe getting into with her) in the past and this is bcs i got rather short shrift from my (very decent and kind, but not especially touchy-feely!) parents for some of my anxious behaviour as a kid. like DD, i was very anxious as a child, but did not have her anger issues. i strongly remember feeling scared of all sorts of things (the dark, my heart stopping beating etc) and the reaction was usually of the pull your socks up variety, impatience etc. nothing at ALL abusive (bar the odd sharp smack, but as rachel says who didn't get that sort of treatment meted out now and again at that time, the 70s as this was for me).

i have therefore swung too far the other way, wanting to be the ever-patient, ever-understanding sort of mother, but letting myself be ground down in the process - and flying off the handle in the past really badly out of the blue when i finally did lose it now and again.

at the end of the day so much of this is about how we were parented ourselves isn't it. but self-awareness definitely helps!!

ps mimi- you WROTE that book 'how to talk...' didn't you - come on, admit it! your morning thumbnail sketch was straight out of there at least. sounds like a true result!!

Yes it did sound a bit like it could have been said in a phoney American accent didn't it? It's funny but DS was lovely on the walk home from school. Perhaps it was because we parted this morning on good terms? However I don't think they think about these things as much as we do.

Katiek- know what you mean about trying to be everso everso all the time. I do the same and completely blow-up every so often under the strain of it all. I am terribly inconsistent about some stuff. It's definitely because I am unclear about boundaries, having had few set for me as a child. It is soooo hard trying to learn them as an adult to set for your own DC and I doubt myself all the time. This thread is so great, and I think I may start using it to check stuff out if that's ok with you all?

I haven't been able to check in here for a few hours and as usual it's fascinating! I still haven't got round to reading the Stately homes thread (has someone linked it here? I can't even find it) but I will when I have more time. I'm interested in what people have to say about over compensating with attention because they didn't receive enough themselves. And not having established proper boundaries due to not wanting to withhold from their DCs. Snap. I think this is one of my strengths and at the same time my weakness -because I received negative or absent attention a lot as a small child I think it's left me with an insecurity or worry about not giving enough good attention to my DC. I think I've no doubt gone the other way - being over 'available' or 'ever-present' and then suffered the consequences and wonder why the hell my DS wont leave me alone . So hard to get the balance right.

Mimizan: LOL I believe you about your friend needing the 24 hour rest after the marathon role-plays.

sky - 'xactly. same for me. i keep thinking, well, i may be heading for an early grave after all these years of stress, tears and soul-searching, BUT hopefully DD and i will have a great rel'ship in the future and be close, as a result of all the times i soothed her and was - as you say mimi - everso everso, and went to her in the night and read a zillion child-rearing books and spent my life on MN and failed to lash out (er, much) even under intense provocation.
...
...bcs of course we all know that i am in fact totally deluding myself and our relationship is going to be as fraught as any mother and daughter's, albeit for possibly different reasons than apply to my sitch with mine!
S I G H !!!
christ our mothers had it easy - well they didn't, obv, but they didn't have quite so much endless flippin' angst - mine used my fontanelle to balance her ashtray on, she cheerily tells me!!!

Skydancer- I'm definitely guilty of overcompensating for my DP'S lack of interest time in my life as a child. I am always at the DCs' school and help out in every way I can. I feel exhausted this week having been in there for about 7 hours. My DP's knew nothing about what went on at school for me, the good and the bad. I feel it so important to be involved and I feel lucky to be a SAHM ATM.

Sometimes I wonder if the DC will look back and say 'We couldn't get away from our Mum. She was always at school doing this, and doing that and would never leave us alone'

My DP's probably never thought about these kind of issues, and still don't. They lack the self-awareness I think people on here and the Stately Homes thread are gifted with.

Didn't mean to sound smug about self-awareness

I know, I know, I know!!! I have perfected the silent scream - you turn away from them, open your mouth and silently scream for a few seconds until I calm down. Crazy I know but it works for me.

It only happens about once a week or less now as I try to look at everything they do as a need in them (not something they've decided to do just to irritate the hell out of you). If they use going to the potty as a delay tactic - they need to be with you as much as they possibly can - so turn up late to nursery if you can.

When I once found myself towering over mine and shouting I put myself in his shoes and thought no wonder you're carrying on showing off - if someone did this to me I would too.

Give them as much freedom as you can - allow them to make mistakes and teach themselves to do things - it stops so much frustration.

xx

Thanks Katiek and mimizan for your posts and understanding. Katiek your mum joking (I hope!) she used your fontanelle for an ashtray stand gave me a wry smile. I remember being lulled to sleep in the comforting glow of my mother's cigarettes. Mimizan you did not come over as smug at all. I've noticed a lot of us say things along the lines of "Who am I to be saying this?" and it's usually something very very good and worth saying. I think we're supporting one another here and nobody is coming from on high or from a 'know it all' place.

Torrential rain and our living room flooded tonight. Grrrrr- goodnight.

Wow, I haven't been here for a few days, and so much has happened! This thread is just a complete reassurance to me, so many of the situations people have mentioned are ones that have happened with me and my ds1, and I have hated myself for the way I have behaved with him and felt so alone. I am so happy we are working ourselves out of the dark tunnel and I feel so optimistic about our relationship now.

One thing that worked for me was when I was in a rage and shouting at him was trying to picture how it must look - I'm quite tall and the image of myself towering over my little boy, yelling at him while he had a shocked scared look on his face, well it just makes me feel sick and so ashamed of myself, and i try and picture that image as soon as I find the 'red mist' descending, and it always makes me take a step back, and i use that moment to calm down and think of a different way to deal with whatever the problem is.

Dear All
DD at playgroup so I have a few mins to post.

Don't really know where to start with responding as so much has been posted this week. A lot of it I can relate to so much and it has been such interesting reading. I am in awe of the wisdom and fantastic advice you all have given and of your honesty as well.

Was particularly interested to read your post skydancer about how much to give in to dcs demands just for an easy life. Am having a particularly bad week with dd - she is being very stroppy and demanding. She barks orders at me - shut the door....all the way closed, give me my book, I want a drink. If you suggest she does these things for herself, she goes into meltdown. But what am I teaching her if I keep doing it for her? So am going down the path of 'do it yourself' and facing the consequences. SIGH!

I am also up and down like a yo-yo putting different dvds on for her - as she gets bored of them after a short time. I'm fed up of dancing to her tune!

All this bad behaviour has been testing me to the limits this week. I had a bad day on Weds as was p'd off cos she wouldn't go to nursery so didn't get the me time I was looking forward to. Ashamed to say I took it out on her by practically ignoring her all morning, didn't do anything with her and her demanding ways wound me up to the hilt so was shouty again and she ended up on the naughty mat loads. A bad morning. Later when I reflected on it, I know I should have been more grown up about missing out on my me time and just got on with the situation.....so another lesson learnt.

But on the whole, I have been more controlled and have stopped myself from going off the deep end on several occasions by either trying distraction tactics or just taking a deep breath and letting her tantrum til the tantrum has blown itself out.

She has turned into such a drama queen - are your dcs the same? Such sill little things set off a major tantrum eg Today she went into hysterical tears because she couldn't open the Argos catalogue as it's a bit big and hefty - it was the end of the world. When do they get to the stage of saying brightly "Mummy, can you open this book for me, it's a bit heavy" - oh when, oh when, oh when!!!!! This type of behaviour REALLy gets me down as it's constant and draining. We can have several of this type of episode a day. She told me off for taking the top off the toothpaste as she wanted to do it - stupid thing is, I'm beginning to feel guilty for not pre-empting the things she wants to do...how sad is that!!!

Lovely thread.

I also am dealing with anger issues but in my case I work so hard at not letting DDs see how cross I am that it all comes bubbling out at poor DH/work/my mum/the milkman.

And DC do pick up on it whether you show it or not.

I find lack of sleep is a big trigger for bad mood, both for me and DD1. Also, hunger/thirst, and too much sugar.

In an ideal world, we'd all be well rested, and we'd never fight with any of our loved ones! But in the meantime, I guess we just get through the best we can..

Balanomorey i want to respond to this bit:

"She barks orders at me - shut the door....all the way closed, give me my book, I want a drink. If you suggest she does these things for herself, she goes into meltdown. But what am I teaching her if I keep doing it for her? "

When do they get to the stage of saying brightly "Mummy, can you open this book for me, it's a bit heavy" - oh when, oh when, oh when!!!!! "

DD is 3.10 but has definitely enjoyed bossing me about for the last year in a way that DS never did. She is also fiercely independent and can have a tantrum if I do something for her without giving her a chance to try herself.

What works for me is:

With the orders requests, I usually just tell her that she needs to ask politely and then do it for her when she has asked politely. I phrase it differently so I don't get too bored eg

'that sounds bossy, can you think of a nicer way to ask'
'I'll do it for you when you've asked me politely"
mimic her bossiness and then say 'try again in a kind voice'

I can't tell you how often I've had to do this but to give you an idea DS now occasionally says 'tone of voice!' to his sister before I get a chance.

Of course always model the behaviour you want by asking her politely too.

Don't feel guilty about not remembering to let her do things. After all for years you've had to do this stuff for her, so it takes a bit of practice to get out of the habit. You could explain this to her. When DD is getting upset because I turned on the tap when she was about to I try to inject a note of humour:
eg hit my head with the base of my palm 'doh! Silly mummy! When will I remember what a big girl DD is!" and then get her to say 'silly mummy, you forgot I can reach the tap now'

I hope this helps.

Oh and don't worry that you'll be a doormat. as you post shows, 3 is an age where they can't decide whether they want to be dependent or independent so best to go with the flow.

You can start insisting she does things for herself when she is older.

hi balanomorey, I can relate to everything you have said!

Yesterday evening I was up and down like a yo-yo, between the 2 DC's wanting a drink/snack/cuddle etc etc, I eventually blew a fuse and yelled at them to leave me alone. In my defence I was also down with a virus (kindly given to me by said DC's) and severely sleep deprived as DC's up most of the last 4 nights with their coughs (well they slept through but i got woken up every hour or so by their earth shattering coughs) (how can such small people produce such LOUD coughs?)

But, am feeling good today as finally got an uninterrupted night's sleep last night and have whole day to myself as both DC's are at school/nursery til 4.30. Hurray!

I do think a lot of the time our bad moods/anger are due to just getting so worn out/down by it all, the lack of sleep/tiredness and just not being able to take care of ourselves enough.

I can totally relate to the being in a grump with DC because they don't want a nap as it means your 'me' time goes out the window. I have most definately been there and done that. I now don't expect DS to go for a nap, he is 2.5 nearly, but he has some quiet time after lunch on the sofa and after a while he usually keels over and i put a blanket over him and manage to get a bit of time to myself til i have to go and pick up DD from school.

My DD is a professional drama queen, goes into meltdown if DS even looks at any of her stuff. I try and be patient with her as i can see that for her it's a big deal, but it's hard. I think I am gradually getting a bit better at it and probably by the time the DC's are adults I will have cracked it.

Only have five minutes before his royal highness the toddler will need me again but just to say quickly I agree with Otherside about modelling requests and thank you's. My Ds can do them when he's not too frantic "Please can I have..." But most of the time it's WANT xx! quickly followed by repetitions in escalating volume "AAARH (wail etc.). I usually do the 'I'm deaf or stupid' thing of saying "I can't understand waah, waaah or whining, can you say it properly please?. Or I model it: "Say to me 'I want the keys, please' and then mummy will say 'Ok, here you are'. Or if it's something I can't or don't want to give DS at that point then - well haven't cracked it yet but I try to divert on to something DS can have. Like Oneplusone hoping to have it cracked by the time he's eighteen .

As to the general thing BM brought up of being bossed by your tots - tell me about it! May have time to write later.

is my DC a drama queen balanomorey- IS SHE EVER!!!! on which heartfelt note, i must rush to cook their highnesses their tea (servile? moi?) while practising assertiveness techniques internally

I'm sorry to gatecrash this thread so far in but I've been trying to read it all week - finally managed it tonight (2 hours!!). I know - how my Friday nights have changed since the arrival of 2 dc!

I have so much sympathy and empathy for balanomorey and as for actingnormal, she has painted the picture of how I can completely imagine things being in 3 years.

Dd is 2.4 and when she is good, she is an absolute delight - engaging, endearing and so much fun. She has a real zest for life and loves people. She is full of energy and doesn't seem to stop... ever! However, these characteristics seem to come coupled with a fierce determination and an incredibly strong will. She also talks incessantly.

Like many of the other posters on here, I lose it with her. Not all of the time but when she's pushed one too many of my buttons and especially if I'm tired/hungry/in a rush/ds is crying.I end up shouting at her and always regret it afterwards. The thing is, I know it doesn't help and while I'm in control of the situation I can do all the things I know I should do but I'll suddenly hit a point when I see red.

I have always been someone who can lose their temper quickly (though not often) but it is always over just as quickly and I
rarely sulk.

What worries me is that I look at the way dd plays with others and the way she says no to them (and to me) and I worry that she has learnt it from me. I would describe her temperament (sp?) as being very similar to mine and I often wonder about the whole nature/nurture thing.

This evening, after bath, ds (6months) was crying because he was tired and hungry so i was trying to get dd into her pyjamas quickly and she kept running away and being silly. She then started making loud screechy noises that she knows ds is scared of which just made him worse and I grabbed her and quite forcefully lay her down holding her still so that I could dress her. I didn't hurt her but I know I didn't handle the situation as well as I could have done.

I find I have some days (even weeks) where she can be lovely and I don't need to say a harsh word to her all day. But then at other times (the majority of the time), I feel like I am in a constant battle and find myself wondering how much I actually 'like' her. It feels like such a horrible thing to say but sometimes I am just waiting for the next issue to arise and there's no way they can be predicted. She's just so volatile.

Can there be anything hormonal in their behaviour at such a young age? There just seems to be no other reason sometimes.

Finally, I worry about how all this battling affects ds. He used to seem like quite a chilled out baby but for the last couple of months has been much more unsettled. I've put it down to teething but wonder whether he can pick up on a difficult atmosphere.

Sorry to write so much - it all just comes flooding out!

NDG
godo to read you!
my DD is 'hormonal' in the layman sense in a big way and it is genuinely innate, i'm completely sure of that! her moods just swing about from minute to minute, though of course it is worse when she is being eg rushed out to school in the morning or if her bro has aggravated her. but i find myself firmly in the nature camp, i must say. she has been this way from day 1. at her worst there were many days i wondered how much i liked her too (well i didn't wonder - i knew ) but she has a biological inbuilt survival mechanism, my DH and i reckon - just as we are about to throw our hands up in surrender she comes out of her bad patch in the nick of time (but those bad patches can last days) and becomes all funny and cute and feisty (in a cool way(!)) and interesting/bright/inquisitive again and lo, there is light at the end of that GODDAMNED tunnel again.

my DS has survived all of this admirably and is now 5 (she is 7) and pretty mature for his age. i can now talk to him ina very adult way about his sister's moods and he is very understanding. eg i said to him yesterday 'DD is very controlling isn't she - she liked you to do exactly what she says in her games, doesn't she. that's fine as long as you're both having fun, but you need to know that it's OK to walk away and leave the room if she is getting too controlling and it stops being fun'. he is completely able to take that sort of thing in now and understand - i've always been impressed by how he handles her. they actually get on really well. so don't worry about your DS. there is no doubt that ALL younger sibs are affected by the character of the elder one(s) - that's just life - but it needn't be in a negative way even if number one is tricky at times!

Katiek - I'm relieved to hear how well your ds is doing. My dd absolutely loves her little brother but I think that's because her world is affected very little by him at the moment. I'm dreading him moving and being able to get at her toys!! I just feel so sorry for him when dd and I are having a barney becasue I think it makes the atmosphere so horrible.

It has been a real relief to hear that some posters have found ways to improve their behaviour (that's the mums rather than their dc). My dh really hates it when I get cross with dd but he is such a chilled out person and also, he doesn't have to be with her all day every day.

Having said that, perhaps a way in which I could improve is to imagine dh watching me at all times and think about what he would do. I am far more tolerant when he is around.

This thread has given me so much to think about. I'm particularly interested in the sound of the 'Raising your pririted child' book. I think a trip to the library wouldn't go amiss...