Is DS2's musicality hindering his speech development?

[lingle]

DS2 has just turned 3. He has over 200 words but rarely strings them together. His "Party piece" is the three word phrase "More+[desired object]+Please" (used many times each day) and every day we might get one or two phrases like "open door" or "big jump".

His frustrations, tantrums and rigid preferences were a big worry ASD-wise but they peaked at about 2.6 and have been fading to insignificance now as his understanding, confidence and speech slowly (oh so so slowly) improve. His imaginative play is very limited but I've seen him impersonating a dog (licking grandad's arm even!) and his toy dogs have woof-woof conversations with each other and various objects on one's head are "hat". He adores playing trains and rough and tumble games with his kind older brother and nursery say he "tries" to talk to the other children there.

DS can, however, sing an entire album of 10 long children's folk songs (each song having about 6 verses)which he has memorised. His is practically word perfect in doing this(though incomprehensible if you didn't know the tunes). He can do it all himself or take turns with me singing one line at a time or one verse at a time, or he sings the verse and I hum the instrumental. His relative pitch is so good that he starts each subsequent song in correct key relative to the song before as per the recording he knows - something few adults could do. He understands musical jokes - substitution of wrong notes in a known melody on the piano, etc, and thinks they are hilarious.

We had to greatly reduce his tv watching because he seemed so intently lost in the world of the programmes. He concentrated intently for hours if allowed - far too passive. His behaviour improved enornmously after turned the tv to the wall.

I try to use speech therapy techniques with him but when a word reminds him of a song in his repertoire, he tends to respond by initiating the song instead of talking about what he had been doing.

There's clearly some genetics here as we have professional musicians in the family. I'm happy he's musical but feel he's living in a musical world rather than our world. Clearly, music does help - he can say oft-heard phrases from talking books that have a musicality to them eg "I do not like green eggs and ham" and "Duffy driver applied the brakes with a screech" even though he can't say "I like cake" or "the brakes screech".

It's as if the music part of his brain has developed so much that language only fits in within music and rhythm. DS1 was similar - could sing pitch perfect like a choirboy at 12 months singing "awa" - no words(this really is true, my mummy friends confirm it wasn't fantasy) long long before he could talk. And when he finally did start to talk normally, the musicality faded. DS2 has an August birthday and his speech is worse that DS1s, hence the sense of hurry.

HELP! What on earth do I do?

What does his SALT say?

Have you spoken to a developmental paed about this?

I think musicality is a great skill, but I would be concerned in this situation tbh and look for outside professional advice. An inability to communicate effectively will be incredibly frustrating for a small child and retreating into his music will be totally understandable

Yes, I do feel he is retreating into it.

Do you think I should take him to the GP?

I would .. you're his mother and you feel he's retreating into it and they should listen to you .. I would take him to the GP with a view to getting a referral to a developmental paed though and not to ask GP's advice

There are a lot of positives in what you describe - slow but emerging speech, imaginative play starting to take off. Do you feel that you can communicate with him or does he often reply with out of context phrases that he has leanrned (but cannot reproduce the concepts and words in another context)?

He sounds a lot like dd1 was at that age (she is autistic, but i am NOT saying that your ds is), and to a certain extent she still is.

She has a great musical talent, and has had since a baby. She can sing in the way your ds can - word and note perfect, but she has little understanding of the meaning of what she is singing. Her most fluent "speech" is through song. She was the only child at her pre-school summer concert who knew all the words to both "big" songs they sang (doh a deer, and Any Dream Will Do), and sang them perfectly.

She was also similar with the rhyming books thing - her favourite books remain the julia Donaldson range,and she can memorise these in the same way.

She has a severe language delay, and baffles a lot of SALTs. The best thing we have done with her is to start ABA therapy - this is something that is used a lot with autistic children, but iirc, moondog (resident SALT on here) recommneds for language delay too.

your ds is doing really well in that he can imitate words/phrases really well. The first thing we worked on with dd1 was giving her the correct phrases to use, and makin gher use them too. Within a week of doing this, she came up to me at the playground and said "mummy, i want some raisins" - the longest thing she had ever said which wasn't froma book or song!

I would start the referral process for SALT if I were you, but be prepared - it is a long wait so it could be worthwhile doing some stuff yourself

cyberseaphim - if you take the routine, say, of getting dressed and having a nappy change so we can get in the car and go to school (On a cooperative day!) it would be something like
Me "School soon, let's get dressed"
(DS2 looks at clothes)
Me: have your pooed?
DS2: No
Me: Yes you have, look!
DS2: "I've pooed"
DS2: "Nappy". "Dirty".
Me: Yes, let's put your nappy on.
DS2: Nappy ~(getting excited about going out)
DS2: Doggie...there he is!
Me: yes, there's doggie, woof woof
DS2: Woof woof! (each doggie woofs at the other)
DS2: Shoes
Me: yes, let's put your shoes on
DS2: Shoes on
DS2: Coat
Me: yes, this coat today because it's raining
DS2: Open door!
Me: yes, let's open it. Oh no!
DS2: splish splash splosh!
Me: yes, it's raining
DS2: open door
Me: good boy, into the car. Now let's strap you in
DS2: More raisins please
Me: ok, here are some raisins. What do we need to do now?
[waits]
Me: we need to open the box
DS2: Open box!
DS2: More "This Old Man" please
Me: ok, we'll turn it on
DS2 then sings his way to school.......

It's good idea to write down exchanges like that as it helps to clarify what the problems might be. I'm not a SALT and I don't have an NT 3 year old so I can't say much about your son's speech other than there may some abnormalties (which might be because of the delay in language devlopment) but at least he is engaging with you using words. Does he follow 2 or 3 step instructions and does he seem to enjoy pleasing you - or annoying you? I mean is he saying or doing things primarily to get a reaction from you or does he have his own agenda?

I'm not sure about 2 and 3 step instructions. could you give me an example?
Yes, he enjoys pleasing me (and annoying me!)
He loves joining in with gangs of children. He initiates physical games with other 2/3 year olds after taking a while to warm up and settle. He prefers playing me/other children than being alone but can play alone.
More than anything, he wants to be his elder brother

am feeling a bit teary but appreciate people's replies.

There are many positive things about your son's development so try to focus on those aspects while you get advice about how to help his speech develop more. Would he be able to follow an instruction like 'Get your blue shoes from the cupboard and don't forget to close the door' or something like that? It wouldn't do any harm to get an opinion from a developmental paed, who will be able to advise about speech development in general as well as letting you know if there might be any other issues.

Hi there, DS1 now has 400 words or so, has just turned 3 and is currently receiving speech therapy, and has been since 2, when he had only 20 words. He also rarely strings words together, and if he does, they tend to be learned phrases such as "off we go" at the traffic lights. He doesn't always respond appropriately to questions, if I ask him if he's hungry, he might say "eat" or "toast", never just "yes, i am", for example. He is currently under assessment for possible ASD or language disorder.

Much of what you describe sounds slightly familiar, especially the total absorbtion in tv, but I would say that if your ds is initiating play with other children, it does sound a very positive sign. DS1 is happy to play with other children but if you look closely, he's running around with them, giggling but not really interacting beyond a fairly immature level. Play hasn't developed beyond parallel play yet to be honest.

I would definitely take your DS to the GP and ask for a referral to a developmental paediatrician. I don't say this to panic you, I really do understand how scary it can be when you first suspect something with your ds just isn't quite right, but the earlier you can get him intervention if there does turn out to be a problem, (and I'm really not saying there will be,) the better for you all. Make lots of notes before you go on anything at all which concerns you.
Good luck and keep us posted.

I think you need a proper assessment from a developmental paediatrician as others have said.

Musicality won't be hindering his speech - but it is not unusual for children with language problems to be very musical (my severely autistic son can sing perfectly in tune, but is non-verbal. He can hear a song once and reproduce it perfectly in tune. He started singing as he stopped talking). It's apparently not unusual for the spectacular musical ability to disappear with increasing speech/language.

If he enjoys singing I would incorporate it into play to try and share with him. Does he allow you to sing with him? Can you take turns? You sing one line, he sings the next etc.

Thank you everyone. You're all very kind and I appreciate your time. It's hard to discuss this in RL as I don't like it when my situation becomes juicy gossip for the chatterers.....

If it wasn't for the fact that DS1 followed a similar path (speech still indistinct at 4years) I'd be besides myself.

One of the hardest things is that people say "go with your instinct" and "you're the mum so you know him best". But my "instincts" about this vary from day to day and are so affected by my hopes and fears that it's very hard to trust them.

Is your DS1 under a SALT (I will assume so) .. I take DS2 along to a session and ask if she'd mind unofficially taking 5 mins with him .. unless you have already

What you say about mother's instinct is spot on by the way and by no means unusual

Thank you Starlight and everyone. Just spoke to DH who reminded me that DS1 said "no" when he meant "yes" for about 18 months and thrilled me by saying "not fast" when getting ready for playgroup at the age of 3! Did I just have more faith in DS1 because I bonded with him sooner than with DS2? That is the question that throws me and that's why I know that I can't asses DS2 just using "instinct" because there are some complicated maternal feelings going on here....

Twiglett, sorry, cross-posted.

No, DS1 isn't, and here's the thing. DS1 was never under a SALT. When he was 18 months old, a relative in the USA who is a SALT announced (without being asked) that he was "quite delayed" - the first time I'd heard that term. I was completely indignant! I called my HV who laughed and said "gosh we don't expect so much in this country".

I felt that DS1 was the most wonderful child ever born (you can see now why it was a struggle to adapt after the birth of DS2!). If other children spoke in sentences at 2 years, I shrugged and focussed on his other superb skills. His speech was clearly not typical in many respects: he used "no" when he meant "yes" for ages and ages. At 4 years, I remember another child coming to play and saying "why doesn't he talk properly?". By 4.9, the start of school, he'd caught up.

So even by referring DS2 to "experts" I feel that I am displaying less faith in him than I had in DS1 and am medicalising his unusual but "all in the family" speech development. Then at other times I read the dire warnings about "early intervention" and think "oh god what if I haven't done enough".

Please don't beat yourself up about bonding issues. I have felt the full range of guilt with dd1 (and continue to do so now that dd2 is here, and much "easier" to bond with - twice the rouble though )

Looking back, I felt as though i couldn't assess dd1 using instinct, which was why I wanted the professionals involved. BUT, I had already assesed her in a way, and found that i didn't know enough, and that was leading me to go down the referral route.

I try to do as jimjams suggested, and incorporate dd1's songs in to play, and her stories too. She wouldn't let me do this for a long while (I laugh now about the days when the merest mention of eg a star at toddler group had me singing twinkle twinkle for literally 4 hours withut a break, but those were black days indeed).

so, we might sit and read a book, come across a star, and then sing twinkle twinkle, get her to find me another star (in the book or in her toybox) etc, then move on to another picture/song/action combo. It does make me sound a lot like a chilren's tv presenter - "oh, a star? I know a song about a star - let's sing twinkle twinkle" etc but it does move dd1's focus around, from book, to song, to me, etc.

Things like turntaking in the singing, filling in words, even choosing the songs (you say he can sing the whole album - can he sing them out of order? from his choice? your choice?), and then llinkin gthe songs in to his toys and everyday objects to test meanings etc are very valuable.

Is DS1 now speaking clearly and eloquently? Because that in itself can have an impact on younger siblings

I do hear what you are saying .. but really all you would be doing is taking advantage of things that will allow your child to make social connections more easily .. A 4 year old really shouldn't be indistinct .. the earlier the intervention the quicker and easier and less impact on confidence .. funny how we make ourselves guilty over everything

lingle - I'm really interested in what you say. Ds2 is 2.3 and just really starting the speech. BUT he has always 'spoken' in sentences - in that he gets the rhythm, intonation and basic sounds right without the actual words iyswim. He can sing perfectly in tune, and loves music (I am pro-musician, dh is also musician, so not totally out of the blue). He understands words fine, and doesn't seem to have any traits of anything, so I think it's just the way he's developing.

I also wondered if ds1 and dd were holding his speech development back a bit - because they are VERY verbal but speak very fast and not always totally clearly.

Ds2 definitely has a 'musical' ear - even at his age he is singing the harmony lines in music we have on in the car (things like Joseph) - he likes to do the backing!

Yes, DS1 is now clear and eloquent, though he still occasionally calls DH mummy and me daddy.

In practical terms, I'm hearing you Twiglett. Fortunately I think my HV and the local SALTs are like you - experienced pragmatists - interested in doing things that help and not interested in theorising - which is just the kind of professional that I get on with. I may be misinterpreting Starlight but I would hate it if they were using language like "autism watch". It would affect my relationship with them and with my child.

But I would (with great respect) slightly take you up on the point that a 4 year old shouldn't be indistinct. Yes, DS1 was frustrated at 2, but it was just how his neurology worked. DS1 was lucky enough to be born in December. Had he had an August birthday, I have absolutely no doubt that his life would be quite different. [HERE INSERT THE STANDARD LINGLE RANT ABOUT ABOUT SCHOOL STARTING AGE]

Silverfrog, my heart goes out to you, so glad those black days are over....

Thanks again you nice people.

If you think your HV might be a help (inpractical terms) do talk to her. I would also ask for a developmental referral if I were you.

If your ds2 is august born (dd1 is, and should have started school this week - there is no way she would cope) then it is not so very long before he starts school. You have nothing to lose by asking for a few pointers SALT wise (but i really would get on and do it - in my area, if you were to ask for a referral now, you'd be lucky to be seen by next May). If your ds2's language does pick up, you can always take yourself off the list.

being on anyone's list for advice does not mean you have to take it. you can walk away at any point. i have just turned down a highly sought after placement at a local SN nursery (dd1 has been on the waiting list since she was 20 months old - she turned 4 last month) because, at this point in time, it will do nothing for her. It would probably hinde her, tbh. But if she hadn't been on the ist, i wouldn't know what was available, or what the alternatives are.

Yes you are right that much depends on individual child .. but when I said 'shouldn't' I meant that it should ideally be picked up earlier by specialists and the child and parents given the tools to help improve their diction .. it is about giving each child the tools to lessen their potential frustration

In general NT / 'normally developing' 4 year olds are relatively distinct to others with a few sounds that they are still (on average) unable to make .. there are standard ages for phonetic development that go up to 8 or 9 IIRC for specific sounds like 'j' and 'th'

Hmmm,

Just spoke to a GP on the phone. I told her that his understanding as well as his speech is late. She felt that our family history indicated that for him this is what "normal" means. She told me to get his hearing checked and then to come back to her if I want to see a pediatrician (sp?).

Silverfrog, right now I'm in the same position as you re school. He's not going! In Bradford you can defer then go into reception (though they keep threatening to remove this right and I keep campaigning to keep it) What's deeply ironic here is that if DS1 had been born in August I have no doubt that he would have been assessed as having special needs......DS2 may or may not have special needs, but if he is on the same neurological path as DS1 then sending him to school at 4yrs 10 days would be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

kt14, our LOs sounds very similar. Glad mine isn't the only 3-year-old like this. Maybe it would be nice to keep in touch?

Tortoishell, your DS2 is interesting. Sounds like fun! If DS2 has a very strong sense of relative pitch and rhythm, then presumably he will experience that "helplessless before music" some people feel - ie there is no such thing as background music for him. I would have thought it was bound to influence the order in which he achieves speech goals, wouldn't you?