Is DS2's musicality hindering his speech development?

[lingle]

DS2 has just turned 3. He has over 200 words but rarely strings them together. His "Party piece" is the three word phrase "More+[desired object]+Please" (used many times each day) and every day we might get one or two phrases like "open door" or "big jump".

His frustrations, tantrums and rigid preferences were a big worry ASD-wise but they peaked at about 2.6 and have been fading to insignificance now as his understanding, confidence and speech slowly (oh so so slowly) improve. His imaginative play is very limited but I've seen him impersonating a dog (licking grandad's arm even!) and his toy dogs have woof-woof conversations with each other and various objects on one's head are "hat". He adores playing trains and rough and tumble games with his kind older brother and nursery say he "tries" to talk to the other children there.

DS can, however, sing an entire album of 10 long children's folk songs (each song having about 6 verses)which he has memorised. His is practically word perfect in doing this(though incomprehensible if you didn't know the tunes). He can do it all himself or take turns with me singing one line at a time or one verse at a time, or he sings the verse and I hum the instrumental. His relative pitch is so good that he starts each subsequent song in correct key relative to the song before as per the recording he knows - something few adults could do. He understands musical jokes - substitution of wrong notes in a known melody on the piano, etc, and thinks they are hilarious.

We had to greatly reduce his tv watching because he seemed so intently lost in the world of the programmes. He concentrated intently for hours if allowed - far too passive. His behaviour improved enornmously after turned the tv to the wall.

I try to use speech therapy techniques with him but when a word reminds him of a song in his repertoire, he tends to respond by initiating the song instead of talking about what he had been doing.

There's clearly some genetics here as we have professional musicians in the family. I'm happy he's musical but feel he's living in a musical world rather than our world. Clearly, music does help - he can say oft-heard phrases from talking books that have a musicality to them eg "I do not like green eggs and ham" and "Duffy driver applied the brakes with a screech" even though he can't say "I like cake" or "the brakes screech".

It's as if the music part of his brain has developed so much that language only fits in within music and rhythm. DS1 was similar - could sing pitch perfect like a choirboy at 12 months singing "awa" - no words(this really is true, my mummy friends confirm it wasn't fantasy) long long before he could talk. And when he finally did start to talk normally, the musicality faded. DS2 has an August birthday and his speech is worse that DS1s, hence the sense of hurry.

HELP! What on earth do I do?

lingle - he is very affected by music - always notices it, always listens. The other two are musical, but I didn't notice them being so affected as babies. And yes I think it is almost bound to affect his speech - I think he hears speech as music - a series of rise and falls and rhythms, as that is what he reproduces. So although the consonants may not be right, the inflection, rhythm, pitch is all spot on.

He is weird!

that's exactly how my DS2 perceived speech (so far as I can tell) at that age.

sorry to hijack, but i just wanted to say how useful those practical tips sound, silverfrog. my son (2.9) sounds very similar to op's son. we are currently between our 1st and 2nd SALT appointments and i'd been a little unsure what to do when ds is "stuck in a loop" with his learned phrases.

for example he might be saying "there's the ninkynonk" all morning. most of the time, i will try to engage with him asking "where is it going today?", etc, in an attempt to get him to elaborate. however sometimes i worry that i'm just encouraging his obsession iyswim. perhaps that sounds silly.

anyway, you have some great ideas there and we'll definitely be using them.

it's a very strange time, lingle and i'm really fluctuating between being sure that he will develop in his own good time and then being worried that no, his development is going to very different than i had anticipated.

good luck and keep us updated on his progress.

Another one here with a DS with autism who can sing but not speak!

Lingle a bit at GP tbh.

My DS was assessed (in person not over the phone) by one of UK's top Paed Neurologists at 10 and 20 months. He told me 'there was nothing wrong with DS that going to toddler group more often wouldn't put right." Even though at 10 mths he couldn't sit unsupported, clap, point or wave and at 20 months couldn't clap, point, wave, walk or talk.

I followed my instinct and got a second opinion (and boy was it hard getting someone to check on the top guys dx) he has a very rare neurological condition.

GPs/Consultants/specialists are not right all the time, do what you feel is best for your DS.

ragged robin - no, don't worry about talking about night garden, it's a very sensible way of dealing with the telly talk phrases to try and turn them into a topical convo.

lingle - also very about the GP. If you treat late talking as normal, then I've always understood that is late talking where understanding is absolutely fine. I really would seek SALT advice and developmental paediatrician. On the NHS the wait for this varies from area to area, but could be several months - so if he comes on massively in the meantime you can always cancel. An unnecessary referral will do a child no harm at all - the assessment procedure is not intrusive at all.

In terms of the singing - I wonder if it's partly that he sings so much because he is confident with music as opposed to speech. E.g. at that age DS was very good on colours but speech severely delayed, so would tell me what colour everything was quite randomly. As I understand it, it's a slightly different part of the brain that sings than speaks (why singers can sing in foreign languages with flawless accents when they don't speak the language), so I wouldn't think it directly hinders his speech development, just that it might indirectly make things harder as he sings when you are trying to encourage speech!

Regarding the difficulties understanding:- try and make your language very simple, working at one word more than he can say and repeat ad nauseam the words you want to teach him to say. So with the raisin example, when he says "more raisins, please" model back "want more raisins please" e.g "WANT more raisins, yes you WANT more raisins, that's what you WANT".

Hello you helpful people, thank you for your posts.

Oh Marmaduke, if only I knew what was best, how simple life would be! LOL. What would be best would be not to worry and for everything to turn out ok.

I've reviewed the message I posted yesterday and I think that I was a bit negative when I said he lives in a musical world. There's an element of resentment that DH and I feel ie "not more b* music, why don't you talk instead?". But today he seemed delighted for me to be there in the music with him. He didn't always want me to sing with him - nor did DS1 - nor do I for that matter! But he wanted to sing with me and enjoyed changing the patterns and words.

I observed his musical life today. Listening to "This Old Man" , he waited until the last line of each verse, then announced the number that would feature in the next verse. He did this flawlessly and with great enjoyment. So he clearly does understand that "This Old Man" is about a sequence of numbers (more abstract versus concrete knowledge,hmm). And he knows that "Little Red Train" is about a train because it is when he plays trains that he recites lines from it.

I want to ask something. I accept that guidance from a SALT would be helpful. Until and unless DS2 starts school, what help would any diagnosis be to me and him? I've seen mention in autism literature saying that the main point of diagnosis is to relieve family stress. But DS2 isn't a difficult child. He's a typical boy in every respect but this - very affectionate, plays cooperatively with his brother at least and on the path to playing with other children. We'd be a very happy household if it wasn't for worrying about his neurology... if you see what I mean.
Heaven knows that if there was a pill you could take for this, I'd be asking for one tomorrow.

sorry back again,

TotalChaos, your point about confidence and different brain parts is exactly along the lines I was thinking.

RaggedRobin, do you interpret "Where's the Ninkynonk as "mummy, I really like that bit in the night garden where they say "where's the Ninkynonk"" rather than taking it literally. Many of DS2's phrases really mean things like "mummy, it made me feel grown up when you said "no buggy" so I'm going to say it again and smile at you". It's more as if we were commenting on the same play/opera.

Anyway, would really appreciate thoughts on the purpose of getting any diagnosis.

I don't think anyone can require you to seek a diagnosis if you don't feel it's what you need/want but do you feel he needs specific help to engage/communicate with more than music?

Hijacking on, about abstract knowledge, is it a good sign that DS1 can now use colours properly to describe a range of objects? I mean I know it's good but I don't think his SALT really believed me (She hardly ever sees him). His language is still not great but can use verbs as well as nouns now.

purpose of diagnosis - can be useful as a "signpost"when dealing with schools/nurseries etc. A DX of speech delay probably won't really achieve much other than keep you on the SALT department radar - a DX of ASD may be more helpful in allowing access to more specialised SALT and to NAS courses and possibly other therapies/groups/services. It all varies from area to areas - some areas offer good support without a DX, others don't.

Cyber - yes, I think the colours and verbs are the foundation of sentences/describing etc. verbs are particularly important to build up sentences.

Coming back to the original post - DS had a similar thing going on with jigsaws that your DS had to music - at 2 he went amazingly quickly from doing 2 piece jigsaws to 35 piece jigswas (within a couple of months). as his speech improved, his jigsaw doing has died down.

I think song lyrics use a different bit of the brain. Stroke and dementia victims can often sing hymns from their childhood, but not communicate otherwise. So I wouldn't worry about the music taking up all the space.

To give a slighty opposite experience - ds had an entire back catalogue of song at 3, and lots of memorised books (the rhyming ones), but his speech was fine.

could you make up songs about your everyday life (as you are doing it) to demonstrate with music how sentences go together and see if there is an improvement in his 3 word spoken sentences.

"I am running quickly downhill" Decending scale. etc.

20pence has a good point re:making up songs for learning language - so adapt words for your day to day routine. even if they just get sung back at you at first, eventually the vocab will sink in. a singing is a very good way of getting repeats in naturaly

the mulberry bush song can be rather adaptable - this is the way we brush our teeth, brush our teeth, this is the way we at our soup, eat our soup, eat our soup. etc.

Thanks for the further posts,

So, it sounds like what I need to do is think

1. What therapies could be useful to a child in his position and who knows how to give them?
2. What, if any, diagnosis do I need to access those therapies?

In that order. But not to act as if a doctor was going to identify and cure the problem as if it was tonsillitus. And not to worry about the fact that different "experts" quite clearly have different cultures which influence their views (it's like the midwife/doctor thing all over again).

This is helpful: I had been stressing about the fact that any diagnosis would be partially dependent on how I present the differences from the norm - emphasising the brother clearly reassured the GP whereas had I put it another way emphasising his deficiencies in understanding and not mentioning the brother she would probably have reacted differently.

Clearly he's out in that funny land between people who just develop differently (like his brother) and people who are permanently handicapped and only time will tell which it is.

others will know more than me (particularly as DS doesn't have a DX of ASD!) but at this stage I would see the main areas to look at as being speech and sensory issues (nb there may not be significant issues). Speech would be dealt with by SALT and sensory issues by an Occupational Therapist. You wouldn't need a diagnosis of ASD to access either - but it may be very hard to get an OT referral and appointment). Also you would expect an educational psychologist to have a look at what extra help (if any) might be needed at school/nursery.

btw at this age even if there is an ASD DX I wouldn't look at it as being an inevitable "permanent handicap" - as in your DS's case he is communicating well with you (albeit his language is delayed), so there is plenty of good stuff there already. I do sympathise with the no-mans land though - I feel this with DS, that although I am more optimistic than I was, I still don't know whether he will "grow out" of his speech problems to the extent they don't have a big effect on his adult life.

I dunno, Lingle, I read about your son and he sounds a lot like my own DS2, only mine isn't that musical. My DS2 is in the normal spectrum... and another one who isn't a very distinct speaker at just 4yo, like his older sister before him, actually (she's now a top-o-the-class girl). Compared to the kids with real speech impediments, DS is still okay at school, teachers not concerned, etc.

Good luck, maybe I've got wrong picture, but I think your lad is plenty normal, just developing a bit different, like you said.

Thanks Total,

Yes, I shouldn't have used the phrase "permanent" Apologies for that.

DS1 and I are sick of "Green Eggs and Ham" tonight. It's almost like having the tv on - he's just engrossed in it (though he can still play trains at the same time). He wanted to ask me for some melon this pm but couldn't form the words because he was following Dr Seuss so closely. But is being engrossed in a CD such a bad sign? [hmmm]

I think it doesn't help that some of the various syndromes that fall within what's called ASD are very clear (classic Autism, Rett's syndrome, Fragile X, very clear-cut Aspergers) but this "High Functioning Autism" .... what's that supposed to be?

No need to apologise at all. It is a bit of a headf*ck of a situation, not knowing whether there is anything significantly wrong or whether a few years down the line this time of worry will just be a bad memory.

In terms of what is HFA - IME there isn't always a very clear cut line between HFA and language delay at a young age - in the sense that language delay can cause social communication problems. Have a look at the NAS website and info on the triad of impairment if you want further info on the HFA side of things. There are clear clinical critera for ASD - but for speech delay/disorder IME SALT take a more problem specific rather than diagnosis based approach.

I wouldn't worry about being engrossed in a CD - I wonder if the rhythm of the DR Seuss stuff appeals to his musicality. I suppose indirectly anything that is too distracting from ordinary speech/play should be limited to some extent.

lingle, just posting quickly as DH desperate for the pc - more than happy to keep in touch, I've found it so valuable talking to others going through such a similar experience (as opposed to the RL gossips, I do know what you mean there..) and this site has been a real mine of information for me. I often post in the SN board which is absolutely great, and full of mums with similar dc's, both with and without diagnoses.

Cyberseraphim, how old is your ds? He sounds so spookily similar to mine, with the bridges, and the start of using verbs and colours. We're exactly at that stage at the moment, it's great as we've gone from only 2 or 3 verbs to about 30 in the last few weeks. Communication is getting slowly easier!!

ds1 loves all those dr seuss books. His absolute favourite was/is a similar book that has a great rhythm. "hand hand fingers thumb, one thumb one thumb drumming on a drum, one hand, two hands drumming on a drum, dum ditty dum ditty dum dum dum"

I'm trying to imagine what those groovy Canadian "Hanen" people with their lovely non-frightening book "It takes two to talk" (my bible right now) would say about this.

Yes, Total, I am coming to the strange conclusion that engrossment in music is in reality a distraction from ordinary play and speech for this particular child (thanks for thinking about him). Though repeating lyrics is presumably good for his (bad) diction. Must remember to ask SALT about this.

given he is communicating with you though, you can exploit the interest - e.g. get him to expand what he says when he asks you to put the CD on, or you and him recite alternate lines from the book, or you and him read the book together, and you encourage him to comment on what is going on in the pictures.

off the top of my head - ITTT would probably say - hide the CD to make him ask for it, or put something completely wrong in the CD player to encourage a comment/response. ITTT probably wouldn't focus all that much on how to steer clear of a consuming interest.

If it's an interest I think it's fine. If it's become a compulsion I think it needs to be limited.

There are various ways you can limit compulsions. Say 'last time", coundown before turning off or use a time-timer or one of the other things I've linked to on here

There are a number of things that have started off helpful with ds1 (and an interest, something to share etc) but have become compulsive and 'too much' - at which stage we've had to limit or stop them.

Very helpful posts again, especially Total's suggestions and that timer looks fabulous for virtually all children autistic or not.

Yes, his desire for the music can be used. For this child, this is intially going to work better than trying to get him to associate the lyrics with real life (and sadly there are few teapots or horseys or lambs or loubelous or new masters or ducks with feathers in their caps or sleeping friars where we live anyway). In a funny sort of way it's almost worse than tv because tv gives you a picture of what the lyrics represent.

Back when DS2 was freaking out all the time about his placemat/bowl/order of service/spoon etc (2.6 months)I called my health visitor. She said it was very reassuring that when we went on holiday he didn't miss those particular items, just used those of our hosts. Do people think that's sound reasoning? Because when we went on holiday to my mum's in July and there was no tv or cd player (or so DS2 thought) he didn't care at all - too excited about the trampoline and beach. If it had been a true compulsion, ASD-style, would that be less likely to happen?

I don't think it means much tbh (sorry). DS1 soon forgets his compulsions if kept away from them (to the point where they're easy to break- he'll scream for a bit, but soon forgets).

He wouldn't necessarily see a spoon etc in one place as being the same/equivalent as a spoon in another place either iyswim.