Is DS2's musicality hindering his speech development?

[lingle]

DS2 has just turned 3. He has over 200 words but rarely strings them together. His "Party piece" is the three word phrase "More+[desired object]+Please" (used many times each day) and every day we might get one or two phrases like "open door" or "big jump".

His frustrations, tantrums and rigid preferences were a big worry ASD-wise but they peaked at about 2.6 and have been fading to insignificance now as his understanding, confidence and speech slowly (oh so so slowly) improve. His imaginative play is very limited but I've seen him impersonating a dog (licking grandad's arm even!) and his toy dogs have woof-woof conversations with each other and various objects on one's head are "hat". He adores playing trains and rough and tumble games with his kind older brother and nursery say he "tries" to talk to the other children there.

DS can, however, sing an entire album of 10 long children's folk songs (each song having about 6 verses)which he has memorised. His is practically word perfect in doing this(though incomprehensible if you didn't know the tunes). He can do it all himself or take turns with me singing one line at a time or one verse at a time, or he sings the verse and I hum the instrumental. His relative pitch is so good that he starts each subsequent song in correct key relative to the song before as per the recording he knows - something few adults could do. He understands musical jokes - substitution of wrong notes in a known melody on the piano, etc, and thinks they are hilarious.

We had to greatly reduce his tv watching because he seemed so intently lost in the world of the programmes. He concentrated intently for hours if allowed - far too passive. His behaviour improved enornmously after turned the tv to the wall.

I try to use speech therapy techniques with him but when a word reminds him of a song in his repertoire, he tends to respond by initiating the song instead of talking about what he had been doing.

There's clearly some genetics here as we have professional musicians in the family. I'm happy he's musical but feel he's living in a musical world rather than our world. Clearly, music does help - he can say oft-heard phrases from talking books that have a musicality to them eg "I do not like green eggs and ham" and "Duffy driver applied the brakes with a screech" even though he can't say "I like cake" or "the brakes screech".

It's as if the music part of his brain has developed so much that language only fits in within music and rhythm. DS1 was similar - could sing pitch perfect like a choirboy at 12 months singing "awa" - no words(this really is true, my mummy friends confirm it wasn't fantasy) long long before he could talk. And when he finally did start to talk normally, the musicality faded. DS2 has an August birthday and his speech is worse that DS1s, hence the sense of hurry.

HELP! What on earth do I do?

I don't know very much about the compulsion side of things so can't really comment. To confuse things further, I always thought that a degree of obsessive compulsive behaviour was normal in young children anyway.

Jimjams - when in your opinion does a favourite DVD become a compulsion? is it wanting it repeated lots? or the level of tantruming when it's not there?

What about more action songs - or songs that need props. I use the Julie Wylie stuff a lot.

www.juliewyliemusic.com

because the songs use a frog or a teddy or finger, and because there is call and response singing rather than singing along, and lots of space to do whatever action is required.

I do thing it sounds like he needs less listening to CDs and more interaction with you singing, then you can change the words. Use the familiar tune but describe what he is doing with his train.

DS1 (ASD) did not have any fixations when he was diagnosed (3.6 years) but he has some now such as tying knots in mobile phone chargers or using his limited language to talk about helicopters or elephants all day. However they are not strong fixations and they can be re directed without too much difficulty. Autism is not distiguished from normal development by any particular behaviour but by the pervasiveness of the behaviour. There are many things that ASD children do that non ASD do as well and vice versa but an ASD child will maintain the behaviour and it will pervade every aspect of his development. Singing nursery ryhmes is very normal and does not indicate ASD, but if there is a pervasive failure to engage with normal conversation, and the songs are a repetitive substitute for engagement, it might indicate an autistic spectrum disorder. It does sound as if you have a lot of questions that only an expert in spectrum disorders, who has assessed your son, could answer.

KT - DS1 is 4 and 6 months now.I don't know how many verbs he can use as I haven't counted but maybe about 20? He is using them more consistently - will say 'cook bacon' when he wants lunch instead of just 'bacon' which is what he used to say.

IN ds1's case TC too much indulging in a compulsion leads to him going into spasm - so it's fairly easy to spot- that's what we mean by 'going over'. But also yes- screaming and hitting and biting himself if he can;t get at it. Think those have developed as he got older though, i don't really remember him doing that when he was younger.

Thanks so much everyone, I'm grateful for your patience in answering so many questions.

That's the thing with ASD/language disorders, there are just so many variations and therefore so many questions!! Ask on, I'm learning lots from this thread too!

Lingle, I do think your ds1 sounds like my DH was, he didn't speak at all clearly until he started school, showed some of the milder autistic symptoms, and there was doubt as to whether he should attend a mainstream school. He then went from being virtually unintelligible to speaking fluently in a matter of weeks, also aged around 4.9.

With that kind of family history, I really can understand the grey area you're in with your DS2, which is where I am with DS1 - if he's just following his father's neurological path and goes on to be half as successful as he's been (he's very musical, good degree in languages, of all things, then made it to director of his company in his mid twenties - not saying this to be boastful, just to illustrate how things could totally turn around for our dc's) then I'll look back on this period of intense worry and shrug in the same way that my MIL does. It's just that nobody can guarantee that outcome for ds at the moment, and the uncertainty really sucks!

And Cyber, sounds like DS1 is following a similar path to your ds. Hope to get him to the "cook bacon" stage soon! Have found that the baby bumblebee action words dvd's have worked marvels in increasing his vocab of verbs if that's any help..

Had a good day with DS2 today. Took him for a trial session at the school nursery. My stomach was in a knot but he just went for the trains/cars and played happily. He'll scream when I leave him but he got a good first impression.
At circle time, he sat on the edge of the circle with me and sang his own songs!
The staff were very chilled out (very different to other experiences eg Tumbletots. Tumbletots is scary with DS2). They said that they wanted to educate all the children, not just the 50% who are unselfconscious about sitting in a circle at just 3 years old. I thought that was a nice way to put it.

Good Luck _ I wasn't trying to say that I think he's ASD only that a proper assessment could help with your questions.

Thanks Cyber, understood

Lingle, I am not able to add to the good advice you have received about assessments etc. which is good to keep an eye on things.

I just wanted to point out this book The Einstein Syndrome - Bright Children who Talk Late by Thomas Sewell. The author observes that whilst late talking could be due to developmental disorders, there is a class of children who are NT but come from families with a history of musical, mathematical, analytical talents who take longer to develop speech.

blueshoes,

what did you think of the "Einstein" book? I felt he was very much reacting to the USA tendency to be a bit trigger-happy with diagnoses and for all and sundry on the professional side to leap in playing doctor - and from my own experience of being in America with a language-less DS1 and a distantly-related opinionated SALT at a party, I could sympathise with that.

Other bits of it I wasn't so sure about. My first impression was that he hasn't really conquered his own fear of the concept "autism" (which for him I think means classic autism) and I sensed some grieving for his relationship with his own son ...... but his book is certainly testimony to the fact that seeking medical opinions is not an emotionally neutral option. And yes the tendency of late talkers to have musical and analytical genetic backgrounds (my family fits this) is certainly interesting.

Lingle, interesting point about the tendency in US to over-diagnose, rather than under-diagnose as per the UK. My sister who lives in the US explained that a positive diagnosis brings in extra (I assume generous) funding for the school and she suspected the school of being too quick to jump on her 6 year old ds' slowness in literacy skills.

I understand that the author has no background or credentials in child development. He was only making an observation about the association between late talkers and those with strong musical/mathematical/analytical family backgrounds (like the oftquoted Einstein), when he was forced to confront the issue of his own son's late talking and found scant material in this area.

I think it is interesting association and one worth noting. But it certainly should not lull a parent into a sense of false security. I always advocate still keeping an eye and going for assessments as early intervention in the case of learning difficulties is most helpful.

One criticism is that if you extend family traits into analytical professions, I am sure almost any extended family can pull a doctor or lawyer or accountant or scientist out of the bag.

Also, learning difficulties lie on a spectrum and so what does the book prove? It is perfectly possible to be on the high functioning end, lead a relatively 'normal' life and start life as a late talker, but then we already knew that! Perhaps the link he is making is between ASD (which is linked to late talking) and musical/mathematical/analytical traits rather than between such traits and late talking.

[Caveat: my understanding of developmental learning difficulties is rather patchy so feel free to bollock me]

Lingle, just wanted to make it clear that I was not commenting on your son's situation in any way. He sounds really lovely. I had a late talking dd with none of your son's talents to boast of and she is turning out to be a bogstandard 5 year old with IMO simpler speech than her peers but pretty much on the normal scale.

As a parent, it is so difficult to strike a balance between worrying about everything and being in denial. I know I do both, sometimes simultaneously.

Some do feel that the Einstein book is just an over generalisation based on his own experience as a father. It is very common for parents worrying about ASD to either buy this book or to be advised to buy it by family/friends. There is no real evidence that Einstein spoke much later than expected for a child in his era/society and does not seem to have ASD traits as a adult as he enjoyed debating with his peers and was very sociable.

I'm still feeling quite empowered by the www.autism.org.uk description of what they actually MEAN by the different syndromes within "ASD" and am understanding more now why they don't diagnose early in this country. Those labels sure are powerful till you start to peel them off and see what's underneath....

Would rather be here than in the States where I can understand people reaching for the Einstein book (with all its flaws) in self-defence!

But there's perhaps a better book that needs to be written about the late talking phenomenon - something of interest whether or not your child turns out to have sn and something UK focussed. Something less confrontational. Unless, that is, someone knows that it's been written already......?

Parent's Guide to Speech and Language Problems by Debbie Feit is good. Doesn't deal with any "politics" behind diagnosis etc, more practical than theoretical, but does look at the emotional aspect as well.

Cyber - I had a read of the beginning of an Einstein biog to try and bottom this - there wasn't any clear evidence - just references to Einstein's parents being concerned about him being a late talker - but according to the biog he was certainly verbal to some extent by 3. He used to whisper sentences under his breath when a child before saying them out loud.

Thanks Total, practical and emotional sounds good!

Have just been with DH and DS2 to the drop in speech therapy clinic. DH and I were a right pair! DH kept saying "he'll talk when he's ready" and I kept saying "I'm doing all the things I should but he still doesn't talk and he can't possibly go to school in 12 months".
Meanwhile, DS2 played happily with trains the whole time! Out of the three of us, he was definitely the most chilled out.

Anyway, I emphasised the doubts that the private nursery had expressed about DS2's understanding and the SALT said that she will visit him at his new school nursery. Got the impression that the SALTs rate the school nursery higher than the private nursery. So that's but I still feel .

Lingle, that's DH and me! Honestly, I've probably used that very sentence. DH keeps saying "he's fine, he's just like me, he'll talk when he's ready/starts school" etc. DS1 will be 4yrs and 3 weeks when he starts school, the thought of it makes me feel physically sick.

And interesting reading on the Einstein late talkers theory - DH is musical and mathematical (so am I to a lesser degree, come to think of it,) but I didn't have the late speech element.

ds2 is a totally different experience for me though, he has more words at 12 months than ds1 did at 24 months. He'll probably be tone deaf and rubbish at maths!

"DS1 will be 4yrs and 3 weeks when he starts school, the thought of it makes me feel physically sick."

Me too. 4 yrs and 2 weeks here . Should we start a school for late talking musical toddlers who are likely to become engineers? Seriously, what options are you considering? What have others on this thread done?

I'm hoping for deferred reception for DS2 - start him there at 5. My friend's just gone for this successfully for her immature late August boy(2009 instead of 2008 with LEA's blessing to start reception in 2009) and I'm jealous - I so want to get it settled for DS2 but the LEA keeps trying to force you to put them in Year 1

Could I please ask 'Lingle' what ABA therapy is?

I've always known my 3.6 year old boy was well behind with this speech. Had his hearing tested, and that's perfect. He's been at playachool 4 months, and they've taken me to one side and suggested they think he needs to be referred to a speech therapist. This is great, but I've heard that the waitiong lists can be long, and want to do something to help him at home - and always have done.

Thanks.

Hello Jadeylou and welcome

It was Silverfrog who mentioned ABA. I don't know what it is but I expect someone will post.

But I can highly recommend a book called "It Takes Two to Talk" by the Hanen Foundation. It teaches you (the parent) "do's" and "don'ts" via cartoons. The chapter headings are called things like "Helping Your child take the lead". Very well-written. I paid an eyewatering £50 for it but someone else said they paid £35 (it comes from Canada, you see).

As for speech therapists, I think it varies from area to area. Where I am (West Yorkshire), it's all very sensible. Every month they have a drop in clinic and you take your child and have a chat...... and take it from there.

ABA is applied behaviour analysis. It's a teaching method that can be effective - breaks down tasks into very small stages and rewards correct responses.

It's a bit hard to summarise though- it's rather a huge topic. If you google you'll get loads of info.

You've got lots of experts here who know far more than me about speech and language, but I just wondered, does ds1 'interpret' for ds2? And if so, could it be that ds2 relies on that, removing the need to develop more complex speech?

Even if that is the case, it would clearly only be one part of a very intricate pattern, of course. But I just wondered because apparently I used to do this for my little sister. Who suddenly started coming on in leaps and bounds when I went to school and she didn't have an interpreter on tap.

Thanks so much for that! Both myself and my partner are off to his playschool with him in the morning, to find out as much as we can about that they think. Basically they find it hard to understand him - he has his own little language, that only his 'Mum' understands! He's come and leaps and bounds, and is doing great, considering he didn't really speak until he was 2.6, so a year later he's doing ok, but NOT anywhere near other children his age, by along way. He has 12 months until he starts reception, so want to do all I can. I've posted my cooncerns on here before, without much joy. But this time, I'm happy to read what you've all said, and hear about your experiences. Any tips at all would be glady received. My little boy is so precious....

"he has his own little language, that only his 'Mum' understands!" Sounds like a cutie. Do let us know how you get on tomorrow.

Edam, DS2 has been away from DS1 for a year now but it's certainly true that often DS2 is quite content with his single word, "more juice please", many-songed little train-filled life and doesn't really see the NEED to talk more except to please me....

I said "squeeze his hand" tonight (referring to his toy sheep) and he happily repeated "Green Eggs and Ham" (similar rhythm, pitch, inflection, etc, if you see what I mean).