Please or to access all these features

Behaviour/development

Talk to others about child development and behaviour stages here. You can find more information on our development calendar.

Is DS2's musicality hindering his speech development?

134 replies

lingle · 05/09/2008 09:44

DS2 has just turned 3. He has over 200 words but rarely strings them together. His "Party piece" is the three word phrase "More+[desired object]+Please" (used many times each day) and every day we might get one or two phrases like "open door" or "big jump".

His frustrations, tantrums and rigid preferences were a big worry ASD-wise but they peaked at about 2.6 and have been fading to insignificance now as his understanding, confidence and speech slowly (oh so so slowly) improve. His imaginative play is very limited but I've seen him impersonating a dog (licking grandad's arm even!) and his toy dogs have woof-woof conversations with each other and various objects on one's head are "hat". He adores playing trains and rough and tumble games with his kind older brother and nursery say he "tries" to talk to the other children there.

DS can, however, sing an entire album of 10 long children's folk songs (each song having about 6 verses)which he has memorised. His is practically word perfect in doing this(though incomprehensible if you didn't know the tunes). He can do it all himself or take turns with me singing one line at a time or one verse at a time, or he sings the verse and I hum the instrumental. His relative pitch is so good that he starts each subsequent song in correct key relative to the song before as per the recording he knows - something few adults could do. He understands musical jokes - substitution of wrong notes in a known melody on the piano, etc, and thinks they are hilarious.

We had to greatly reduce his tv watching because he seemed so intently lost in the world of the programmes. He concentrated intently for hours if allowed - far too passive. His behaviour improved enornmously after turned the tv to the wall.

I try to use speech therapy techniques with him but when a word reminds him of a song in his repertoire, he tends to respond by initiating the song instead of talking about what he had been doing.

There's clearly some genetics here as we have professional musicians in the family. I'm happy he's musical but feel he's living in a musical world rather than our world. Clearly, music does help - he can say oft-heard phrases from talking books that have a musicality to them eg "I do not like green eggs and ham" and "Duffy driver applied the brakes with a screech" even though he can't say "I like cake" or "the brakes screech".

It's as if the music part of his brain has developed so much that language only fits in within music and rhythm. DS1 was similar - could sing pitch perfect like a choirboy at 12 months singing "awa" - no words(this really is true, my mummy friends confirm it wasn't fantasy) long long before he could talk. And when he finally did start to talk normally, the musicality faded. DS2 has an August birthday and his speech is worse that DS1s, hence the sense of hurry.

HELP! What on earth do I do?

OP posts:
lingle · 16/09/2008 19:12

Hello again fellow borderliners.

You can't be worse than I am Cyber - you can take the girl out of the law firm but you can't take the lawyer out of the girl.

I've left a not-hugely-coherent message on the SALTs' answerphone describing how DS2 thinks everything with more than 1 word is a quote from a song and asking what the heck I should do about it.

OP posts:
cyberseraphim · 16/09/2008 19:14

I am 'legal' too - is that a cause of overly pedantic use of language...

TotalChaos · 16/09/2008 19:17

you won't believe this....... I'm a former lawyer too .

lingle · 17/09/2008 09:07

ROFL.

OP posts:
lingle · 17/09/2008 22:10

OK people....

have any of you potty-trained your late talkers.......?

Am thinking of giving it a go if all continues to go well at nursery but am a bit [hmmm]

OP posts:
TotalChaos · 17/09/2008 22:22

i made very vague attempts at potty training - but at 3.5 DS started toilet training himself pretty much. He had a few weeks of copying what I did on loo without actually producing, then started taking himself off to loo and doing it himself. He started training at least months before he could actually say "I need the toilet", which made life interesting outside the house....

cyberseraphim · 18/09/2008 06:03

DS1 was 4.3 when he was toilet trained (too tall for a potty and we go out a lot anyway). He has no problems asking ! He is a bit obsessed but is limited to one visit per cafe.

lingle · 18/09/2008 18:14

I picked up DS2 from school nursery today and they said "he's doing great, no tears, joins in, but we think you should get his hearing checked because sometimes he doesn't respond when we speak to him". tbh, I've noticed that too. I think he responds poorly to his name but hey, who knows, maybe it's his ears.... at least you can get a yes or no answer to that one....

So I called the health visitor who has referred me to an audiology dept. She said she didn't know how long the waiting list would be.

Can any of you talk me through the practicalities of a hearing test please? If not, I'll start a new thread.

thanks for the potty training info btw. Hope you're all having problem-free fun days. I guess it's a sign of a good nursery that they've picked up on this so quickly.

OP posts:
cyberseraphim · 18/09/2008 18:18

We had a hearing test at aged 3 1/2. They used black boxes with toys in them. They showed him that the toy lights up when a sound is made. Then he had to sit between the boxes - they played sounds from each side. He turned to each sound to see the toy light up.

TotalChaos · 18/09/2008 18:19

audiology test - they have a soundproof room, and there are 2 parts. part one where your kid puts a wooden man in a wooden boat when he hears a noise they play to him. part two where the audiologist takes a good look inside your kid's ears. They will be used to kids who take time to comply with instructions etc so don't worry on that score. Audiology wait was just under 3 months. TBH if he is singing back music so well I wouldn't imagine a hearing problem was all that likely but well worth getting it ruled out.

if he's not responding, it could be that he finds it hard to filter out his name when there is a lot of background noise. also he may not always understand what they are saying

TotalChaos · 18/09/2008 18:20

cor yours was hi-tech cyber

lingle · 18/09/2008 18:59

Wow, you guys are great! Talk about instant reactions! Thank you! perhaps I'd better teach him the words "man" and "boat" .
I'd be amazed if hearing is a significant part of this (having said that, I have always had to pretend to understand what people say to me in pubs and other noisy environments and I simply cannot lipread people's whispers AT ALL.)

It's so odd, when he's in the middle of fun and games with DS1, DS1 will call him saying "DS2", "DS2" and in his excitement DS2 doesn't realise that DS1 is showing him the next phase of the game (ie now they both have to fall over on the rug again and again) and just repeats "DS2" with great glee.

It's a headf**k, as someone so eloquently put it.

[lingle now starts wondering whether her own poor bowing technique in her string quartet is actually down to a hearing deficit ... rather than just not being particularly good at the violin]

OP posts:
kt14 · 18/09/2008 20:31

raggedrobin, yes, definite improvement in DS1, some which i can link directly to taking sugar free squash out of his diet -

vocab gone from 20 words aged 2 to around 400 aged 3, and more every day, he has no behavioural issues, no rigidity or routines, eye contact restored, joint attention now quite good - if he sees something on tv which makes him laugh, he turns to me to share the joke. He initiates turn taking games such as bouncing a ball to and from me or another child.

He's settled into mainstream preschool fine, and has formed attachments to other children and the teachers within a couple of weeks. I'm amazed at the progress reports we're getting.

That said, there are still big concerns with atypical language development, his understanding can be patchy, and he's just started occasionally holding his ears if he's unsure of a situation. Got next peadiatrician appt next week so we'll see what's said there..

kt14 · 18/09/2008 20:36

sorry, missed last page of thread when reading through - lingle, we are having potty success with DS1 - started around 3 weeks ago by leaving him pant free at home and taking him to the potty/toilet every half hour and bribing him to stay there by reading to him or giving him raisins (hygienic or what?!)
after a while he got fed up of spending so much time on there and just started taking himself off to the potty when he needed to go. We slowly introduced pants - that's fine, he can take them off but not put them back on. We've now got to crack trousers over pants and we're almost there.
I found that tight pants were no good, as he must have found them too similar to a nappy, boxers (Giorgio di Asda, £2 for 3 i think) worked a treat.
So far it really has been far easier than i anticipated but we are being very laid back about it, and he still generally wears a pull up when out. We're going for it next week though..

RaggedRobin · 18/09/2008 21:21

lingle: i teach deaf children and was all set to answer your audiology question, but everyone else beat me to it, and explained it a lot better than i would have! [stolen thunder emoticon]

i was a bit embarrassed when SALT asked if i thought hearing loss might explain ds's language delay because i had never actually considered it. probably again becauase of his interest in songs and music.

kt14: ds1 occasionally puts his fingers in his ears, but i can't decide if it is because he doesn't like a sound or is experimenting with the change in sound when he does it. he never seems to be upset whilst doing it.

good luck with the appointment next week.

smartiejake · 18/09/2008 21:53

Hey ragged robin! I am a ToD too! (sorry to hijack! just never met another ToD on mumsnet before!)

RaggedRobin · 18/09/2008 22:22

we can gang up against all the lawyers on this thread!

lingle · 19/09/2008 09:45

kt14, your DS1 is sounding very very similar to my DS2. Sounds like he's doing great - especially as he is the eldest and therefore doesn't have the advantage of a DS1 to model "boy" behaviour to him. DS2 has effectively been in "play therapy" since he learned to walk!

Sorry to be nosey but what are your thoughts about school starting age for your DS1? I'm quite literally too frightened to phone up Bradford Council to confirm that I can defer reception just in case they have changed the rules ....

DS2 really likes a huge version of "Trains" by Byron Barton. It's about 18 inches square (they call it a "lap" edition) and the big picture of the track is really satisfying. It's the first book he's had that he doesn't turn into a poem.

OP posts:
kt14 · 19/09/2008 10:18

Yes raggedrobin, I wondered about DS1 experimenting with sound changes too - he likes to do it occasionally when we're driving on a noisy road surface, and I vaguely remember doing it myself when I was little.

And lingle, that's not a nosey question at all. It was one of the first things we asked about but were told a flat no for our area. Apparently it can mean children are old enough to take themselves out of school before they've taken their GCSE's, or such like, and they only allow it under exceptional circumstances, such as a baby being incredibly premature and arriving in late August rather than November, for example. If Bradford works differently I wouldn't rule it out at as an option this stage, especially as your ds is so young for his school year. (bit of an irrelevant aside but my dad went to Bradford grammar school and loved it there..)

I've now gone full circle on the issue, and feel that the sooner DS is in school, the more help and stimulation he'll receive. I'm hoping he'll be bright enough to make up ground once the language development improves, this is what happened with DH.. No poems here though yet, and he's only just starting to sing.

lingle · 19/09/2008 11:09

cool. as I have rather strong rules on the school starting age topic, I'll take 'em to another thread.

OP posts:
kt14 · 19/09/2008 11:37

Hear what you're saying lingle, it is a contentious topic - I'd still have the option of starting ds at 5 down here, but only if he missed his reception year out, and went straight in at yr 1 level, which I don't want him to do. It does all seem to have come round very quickly, and I wouldn't say I feel comfortable with ds starting next year, but I'm thinking I might be better off working with it, rather than fighting against it as it doesn't seem we have any choice.
Considered going private, as we could run him through the whole system a year late that way, but it's a heck of a commitment in terms of expense, and restricted choice of school, plus ds2's needs which may well be different.

lingle · 19/09/2008 11:38

gosh sorry meant views not rules!!

Freudian slip - probably because I wish I made the rules....

OP posts:
kt14 · 19/09/2008 11:42

you and me both, got to run, supposed to be collecting the ds at 12 and got distracted by this site as usual!

cyberseraphim · 19/09/2008 19:14

I'm lucky in that DS1 will be 5 1/2 when he starts just because of his March birthday. We hope he will get a place in an ASD unit but nothing is certain.

lingle · 22/09/2008 12:25

here we are in the house of opera again;

DS2: "Where is thumbkin, where is thmbkin?"
LOOKS AT ME WITH BIG SMILE
Me: "Here I am, Here I am"
DS2: "How are you today sir"
LOOKS AT ME TO CUE ME IN
Me: "Very well I thank you"
DS2: "Run away, run away".

He hasn't got a clue what it means, but he could be on the infant version of young musician of the year.

Meanwhile, more usefully today:
ME "Shall we have Weetabix" (to DS1) "No. Weetabix gone".
DS2 has had the last weetabix. So DS1 eats porridge instead.
DS2 notices that DS1 has now finished
DS2 "Porridge gone".

I leap up in the air in celebration..... kisses all round... with any luck, he'll do it again before next month! (we've had these "breakthroughs" before....)

The SALT has come back to me and said that DS2 sounds like a good communicator but plays with language instead of using it. She will visit him at nursery on Friday. I'll let you know how we all get on.

OP posts: