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Is DS2's musicality hindering his speech development?

134 replies

lingle · 05/09/2008 09:44

DS2 has just turned 3. He has over 200 words but rarely strings them together. His "Party piece" is the three word phrase "More+[desired object]+Please" (used many times each day) and every day we might get one or two phrases like "open door" or "big jump".

His frustrations, tantrums and rigid preferences were a big worry ASD-wise but they peaked at about 2.6 and have been fading to insignificance now as his understanding, confidence and speech slowly (oh so so slowly) improve. His imaginative play is very limited but I've seen him impersonating a dog (licking grandad's arm even!) and his toy dogs have woof-woof conversations with each other and various objects on one's head are "hat". He adores playing trains and rough and tumble games with his kind older brother and nursery say he "tries" to talk to the other children there.

DS can, however, sing an entire album of 10 long children's folk songs (each song having about 6 verses)which he has memorised. His is practically word perfect in doing this(though incomprehensible if you didn't know the tunes). He can do it all himself or take turns with me singing one line at a time or one verse at a time, or he sings the verse and I hum the instrumental. His relative pitch is so good that he starts each subsequent song in correct key relative to the song before as per the recording he knows - something few adults could do. He understands musical jokes - substitution of wrong notes in a known melody on the piano, etc, and thinks they are hilarious.

We had to greatly reduce his tv watching because he seemed so intently lost in the world of the programmes. He concentrated intently for hours if allowed - far too passive. His behaviour improved enornmously after turned the tv to the wall.

I try to use speech therapy techniques with him but when a word reminds him of a song in his repertoire, he tends to respond by initiating the song instead of talking about what he had been doing.

There's clearly some genetics here as we have professional musicians in the family. I'm happy he's musical but feel he's living in a musical world rather than our world. Clearly, music does help - he can say oft-heard phrases from talking books that have a musicality to them eg "I do not like green eggs and ham" and "Duffy driver applied the brakes with a screech" even though he can't say "I like cake" or "the brakes screech".

It's as if the music part of his brain has developed so much that language only fits in within music and rhythm. DS1 was similar - could sing pitch perfect like a choirboy at 12 months singing "awa" - no words(this really is true, my mummy friends confirm it wasn't fantasy) long long before he could talk. And when he finally did start to talk normally, the musicality faded. DS2 has an August birthday and his speech is worse that DS1s, hence the sense of hurry.

HELP! What on earth do I do?

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TotalChaos · 11/09/2008 21:52

Lingle - if I could I would have loved DS to have an extra year in nursery and start reception at 5, but he's 4.6 now so didn't have any option to defer.

Jadeylou - what sort of problems does your lad have? Is it pronunciation that concerns you, or is it the language he uses and/or his understanding that is worrying you?

This website has lots of useufl ideas and info

teachmetotalk.com/about/

If you are free during the day and anywhere near a Surestart centre they often run courses "You make the difference" to help you help your child communicate. I agree with Lingle that the "It takes two to talk" book is very good, chock full of practical suggestions o extend your child's speech

Find out if your local speech therapy department takes referalls directly from parents or if you have to go via HV/GP, then pursue the speech therapy. If you have spare cash you may want to consider a private speech therapist if NHS wait is long and you are very concerned. Private speech therapy is in region of £100/£150 for initial visit, report and plan of work to do with your child, and follow up appointments are £50 per hour.

cyberseraphim · 12/09/2008 10:40

We are lucky in that DS1 will be 5.6 when he starts P1 in August 2009 - I've never heard of Reception so I don't think it happens in Scotland. It is just because of when his birthday is. DS2 will be 4.9 when he starts P1. If DS1 had been NT, we could have asked for an earlier start but for obvious reasons, we have not. We are hoping that he will go to an ASD unit but nothing is settled yet. The Unit seems aimed at children with a high level of language so I want to see what the next 12 months brings - although we do have to apply now to be sure of getting a place.

I think it is the case that some (HFA) children who are now being dxd as ASD would have been seen only as 'funny kids' 20 or 30 years ago but I don't think an Einstein Syndrome is a useful way of looking at the social changes. I didn't buy the book - one of the advantages of the Amazon look inside function! I prefer 'Unstrange Minds' by Roy Richard Grinker who has written about the growth in ASD diagnosis from an a sociological/anthropological point of view and also showing how non western cultures make sense of autism.

lingle · 12/09/2008 11:52

The title "Einstein Syndrome" is really bad isn't it?

"Syndrome" suggests that it's a condition to be diagnosed whereas his whole argument is that these children are not suffering from any condition.

As for Einstein, well, I've read a couple of accounts of conversations with a (very confused) Mrs Einstein LOL I think he said his first word before 3.

I confess to using it to reassure others in the past, but now suspect the "Einstein" idea is up there with:
Newton's apple falling off the tree and
There being 20 Eskimo words for snow
as one of those myths you just can't dislodge.

But the author spends the whole book berating American professionals for being "unscientific" so he shouldn't be invoking this pseudo-syndrome imo.

Anyway, here's a more cheerful example; my friend's DH Kevin did not speak one word until 4. Verified by him and his mum. He's a computer scientist (but you guessed that already didn't you?).

I suspect that one of my brothers would have been diagnosed with Aspergers/HFA nowadays: no speech till 2 1/2, wouldn't hold mum's hand; didn't understand the etiquette of street play according to my other brother and so was bullied, talks about the weather, politics and sport a lot but uneasy on many other subjects; likes to be in control (works as an immigration officer and sports commentator - talk about one-way communication!); at ease with animals and small children but has a dread of intimacy with others that amounts to panic. Looking back, there was always a mysterious sense of shame about him in my family (though I never used that word to describe the feeling until recently) so maybe a diagnosis would have been good for us. Anyway, he's found his way in society.....probably just as happy as the average person.

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cyberseraphim · 12/09/2008 12:03

It can be hard to tell what people mean by 'not speaking'. A mother at a playgroup assured me that her son 'could not speak'. However when I met him, he seemed to be chatting away like any other 2.6 year old. When I asked his mother what she was concerned about, she told me that he had a lot of difficulty in pronouncing the 'th' sound properly. My HFA brother has a son who was a bit 'spectrummy' when he was younger but is okay now although he is immature and tends to talk at people rather than waiting for a response - but you can't dx everyone ! My brother was thought to be not ready for school at 5 because of limited speech but he is a computer programmer now - but still with very obvious social impairments.

lingle · 12/09/2008 12:10

One thing I like about this thread is that it is helping me to accept the real similarities between my "extreme male" children and people with a mild ASD diagnosis and to be at least a little bit less scared - whilst remaining sceptical about merits of diagnosis.

DS1's story book this week is called "I want to be a Bee".
Quoth DS1, concerned: "but why would you want to be something that isn't you?".

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RaggedRobin · 13/09/2008 22:05

lingle: sorry, you asked me a question and i had rudely gone away on a mumsnet-free holiday! ds's repetitive phrases tend to be ones where he has latched onto some prosodic element, as he'll repeat with exactly the same intonation, etc. ad nauseum!

i've found that, even though he is beginning to form 'original' sentences of his own, the inflection sounds stilted as though he is borrowing inflection from a phrase he already uses, if that makes sense.

i didn't mention in my last post that he also loves to sing and loves numbers and before i visited the SALT i just thought of these as his strengths. however, since his referral, i've increasingly felt that he finds comfort in the repetitive patterns of singing and counting because he struggles to tune into the unpredictability of real communication.

lots of really useful links and points in this thread, thanks.

lingle · 14/09/2008 14:39

"before i visited the SALT i just thought of these as his strengths"

Did you ask the SALT? I didn't manage to despite best intentions - must telephone them...

what you say sounds very familiar.

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RaggedRobin · 14/09/2008 14:47

yes, when i proudly mentioned his counting and singing skills, it was the SALT who said ah yes, it's the rhythm that he seems to be attracted to. i felt a bit deflated, but since then, it does seem to make sense.

lingle · 14/09/2008 17:53

so was the SALT just gently distinguishing recitation from talking in sentences?

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TotalChaos · 14/09/2008 18:38

oh I wouldn't knock the interest in numbers - DS likes numbers and colours and all of a sudden just before he was 4 he could read, write and count the numbers up to 20, which is useful with what he does in nursery/will do in reception.

RaggedRobin · 14/09/2008 21:46

lingle: yes, that's exactly what she was doing. if it had been the only thing she'd spoken about, i wouldn't have had any concerns.

but by the time we'd left she'd mentioned his lack of turn-taking skills/ eye contact/ shared attention in games/ ability to answer questions or follow instructions; his insistence on his own agenda; repetitive use of learned phrases and his angle of playing (lying right up close to his toys - something i had absolutely not considered before!).

i suppose it was all this, as well as his reliance on recitation rather than more interactive communication, which has had me worrying.

a couple of things that i've noticed since then from reading on mumsnet are his using my hand as a tool (not always, but regularly), and taking me by the hand to show me things. nothing that i'd been worried about before, but all things that MAY be leading me now to think about autism. we'll discuss it with the SALT when we return in october.

totalchaos: you're right, i still actually do consider these interests to be ds's strengths, but now i suppose i'm curious about the reasons for his focus on numbers and song.

sorry, long post!!! this stuff is going round and round in my head - but we DO often forget about it when we're all just having fun with our wonderful wee feller.

RaggedRobin · 14/09/2008 22:18

oh, and re. the usefulness of diagnosis, we live in scotland and ds has a december birthday which does not automatically allow him an extra year at nursery.

he is currently due to start school at 4.8 but if his language and communication continue to be a problem, then i woud be very keen to defer and for this reason, i think a diagnosis may be useful to help us make a case. i am torn though between the whole labelling vs dx to access support dilemma though.

TotalChaos · 14/09/2008 22:29

I think that it's something that makes sense to him, comes easy to him in a way that language doesn't. DS used to have fleeting eye contact and do the lying on the floor to play with toys thing - as his language has improved both those differences have pretty much gone.

RaggedRobin · 14/09/2008 22:41

that's great to hear. ds is making progress and is better at following instructions now, so we have many positive things to report back to the SALT.

cyberseraphim · 15/09/2008 12:04

I have no idea if this will help

www.childbrain.com/pddassess.html

It cannot diagnose autism or any other pervasive developmental disorder but it can give a a rough idea if there are underlying issues or not.

You might find some/many of the questions strange or not relevant to your child but if you fill it in as best you can, it might give you something to go on. It helped me to get some issues straight anyway.

The scoring is explained on this page

www.childbrain.com/pddq6.shtml

cyberseraphim · 15/09/2008 12:05

www.childbrain.com/pddassess.html

www.childbrain.com/pddq6.shtml

RaggedRobin · 15/09/2008 13:43

thanks for that. lots of moderates for language and social categories - mostly no for symbolic play categories... coming out as overall moderate pdd - but that may be because we had a bad day yesterday! VERY repetitive and lots of tantrums.

interesting link.

cyberseraphim · 15/09/2008 13:50

There's further info on the site where they discuss with parents what the test results mean and it can be a bit like analyising chicken bones to predict the future !

kt14 · 15/09/2008 14:13

gosh, that link's interesting, we got a 54 - mild PDD (but suspect it should be higher as I was maybe a little generous)

Raggedrobin, v interested in your DS, that was almost exactly what was mentioned when my ds had an evaluation last year. Many things have improved slightly since - turn taking, joint attention and eye contact but he still often lies down to play with toys too. (Having said that, I saw a couple of NT children doing this at playgroup this morning..)

lingle · 15/09/2008 14:35

Mine was 47 which was "no PDD" but I also think I was being generous and 6 months ago (2.6)we would have been on "moderate"!

Glad I didn't find it 6 months ago as I was a lot more defensive then!

It does however match my gut feeling of "bordeline". Guess yours must have been pretty borderline too KT14.

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cyberseraphim · 15/09/2008 14:46

I tried it again and got 72 - mild PDD - which is up on 125-136 moderate PDD which we got 18 months ago ! I still put his speech as severely delayed but was able to say that some issues were now 'resolved' so maybe that bumped us up the scale ! Feeling quite positive ! I think I'll take back the 'don't rely on it' view !

TotalChaos · 15/09/2008 14:49

DS got 41 on the shorter one - so no PDD and then 57 on the slightly more detailed one - and mild PDD. so I think he's quite borderline too!

RaggedRobin · 15/09/2008 22:10

kt14: just read back over your posts and was heartened to read that your ds has made progress. hopefully i'll try this test in a few months and have lots of 'resolved' issues too!

it's really helpful reading about other people's children who have similar developmental trajectories - i'd been really beating myself up, especially over ds's absorption in tv, which i hadn't considered to be a problem until recently. i'm beginning to feel that this was more of a 'symptom' than a 'cause'. still feel guilty though.

lingle · 16/09/2008 13:31

I'm happy about Cyber's results second time round!

Ragged - tv guilt - I share it - we turned the tv to the wall around 18th July and now they only watch it about once a week or at other people's houses - there was an immediate and huge improvement in behaviour (most of the tantrums were about turning it off) and we are a happier household. Not sure if there's any stronger link than that to the developmental worries though.

DS2 has settled well into nursery. Hurrah. The SALTs will visit him there soon.
btw, he also sometimes lies on the floor to play trains - dammit I think it's just cute!

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cyberseraphim · 16/09/2008 13:42

I'm probably getting to be like an old poker hand though - knowing how to predict outcomes - if only that could be done in real life !