Erm how rigid are 'normal' 3 year olds - ds3 seems to be becoming Aspie before our eyes.....

[yurt1]

... which he might be. He started on gluten back in December and I'm not sure that it's not triggering something. I'm thinking of taking it off.

On the other hand his behaviour could be totally within the realms of normal and I don't want to leap in and see things that aren't there......

Just wondered whether these are in the realms of normal for a just 3 year old.

2 days ago dh took him and ds2 to school/nursery. DH drove down the 'wrong' street (ds3 wanted to go in another way). He had such a tantrum that the head had to take ds2 in and go and find a teacher to come and help dh get ds3 in.

At nursery someone stood up and ds3 sat in their chair. When the child came back he absolutely refused to move - it was his chair.

This morning dh drove off to work and ds3 was in an utter frenzy saying goodbye. He couldn't stop. DH said goodbye about 15 times but it still wasn't enough and huge tantrum when dh drove off.

Now a big tantrum that has been going on for 10 mins or so because I came downstairs carrying his shoes. He wanted to carry them too and now wants me to go back upstairs with the shoes to carry them down with him. Er no.

This rigidity/ritualistic behaviour has come literally out of nowhere (he;s always been highly strung but not like this). I wondered whether he was going down with something but nothing has surfaced and the behaviour has got worse. It is kind of similar to ds1's behaviour on gluten (bit frenzied).

Would appreciate some idea of whether this is within the realms of normal or whether I need to run around like a headless chicken chucking in biomed stuff before some sort of full blown regression sets in.

My nephew would prob have tantrums like this - we just put it down to sheer stubborness!

If you can connect it with the introduction of gluten and DS1 had similar issues - it is a bit of a no brainer really isn't it? Remove the gluten and see if things improve.

Yes I've always put it down to stubborness before. It's the frequency now that seems insane. He's had 4 one after the other so far this morning. All over doing something his way.

I think we will have to remove gluten. (ooooh god- he loves bread). Unless he'll take enzymes I guess.

Sounds like ds1 (2.10), who I'm pretty certain is NT - especially the shoes thing. He can't stand it when dh or I do something that he previously refused several times desperately wants to do, and often throws an enormous tantrum and asks us to do it again. I admit to giving in on occasion for a quiet life He can also get very upset if I insist on a different way from 'his' way during our trips round the botanic garden. These tantrums can also come in series in quick succession - it's as if his equilibrium is that bit more fragile/likely to 'tip' after one of them.

The only thing that doesn't sound like him is the saying goodbye thing.

Hmm yes the saying goodbye thing is an added new thing - and it's been twice this morning already. DH rang to see how he was, he wanted to speak then he just couldn't let go of the phone to give it back to me "I wanted to say see you later to Daddy' (which he had- about 10 times).

He has always been like this about things like doing it his way or doing it alone, but it's always been spaced out and it seemed to be a genuine stubborness and determination. Recently it's more like its a crisis if things aren't done his way.

I hope that makes sense. I read what you wrote and thought that described ds3 until about a month ago, and that someone it's changed since then.

It sounds similar to the way that DS (4.3 and NT) sometimes is. The thing with the shoes is something that he will do (and I will equally well refuse to comply, to the sound of much noisiness).

He could be coming down with something. But I would say that as you have introduced gluton into his diet, that could well be a trigger. I feel a little trying to teach a grandmother to suck eggs, given the amount you know about the subject already though .

Just wanted to let you know that the tantrums don't sound like unusual behaviour for a 3 year old .

I know bugger all about AS really and not as much as most about NT kids DS2 was/is exceptionally laid back/easy so my reference point for NT kids is the other extreme iykwim. I do think he's NT but I don't want to be so stubbornly thinking that that I miss a regression iykwim.

OK so we clear the house of gluten (not a bad thing really ds1 is much more interested in stealing food than he used to be) and see how he goes......

Thanks for all the input it's really helpful.

I think my very NT dd was like this Yurt at 3- I put it down to controlling her environment. As she is the youngest, and others in the house [ahem] seem to govern the environment much more in her eyes - ie. ds2 and his clothing issues. I was happy for ds2 to be naked or to cut out labels or to make sure that he had his not 'rustling' coat to wear. I honestly think she took all this in, and then though 'Right, I'd like a few things too please.' The difference was that there was some flexibility in her - no tantrums at a sudden trip to the supermarket etc, even if she insisted that the ridges of her socks didn't touch her toes, or that we sat on a certain step to put her shoes on etc. She has grown out of it now (6). Phew.

Does that make sense?

My Mum thinks that's what ds3 is doing a100x She says he's stubborn, seeking attention and copies ds1's tantrums. S I thought he was as well, but I think there's been a change as well. But I can also see that he could still be doing that.

Is he tired yurt? Ds1 used to throw HORRIFIC tantrums about seemingly strange things - like you say, routines changed - but mostly when he was tired or coming down with something. But he is perfectly fine, totally NT, he's 6 now, and has grown out of it.

A friend's 3 year old used to exhibit autistic behaviour because he was copying his autistic brother, but again he is now becoming his own person more, and doesn't now seem to have any AS traits.

Yes, it's hard isn't it. Does he have rituals? I mean private ones? DD never did, any time when she said 'you've got to open THAT door first' were always for my benefit - though she was closer to 4 then - than for herself.

That might help you to discern a difference?

ds was like this at three and it drove me insane. Everyone warns of the terrible two's, but no-one ever tells you that when they hit three it becomes 10 times worse, because they know what they want and at last they have the communication skills to tell you.

But having said that I do think that there can be triggers that exaserbate the behaviors. With ds it was sugar. Not having it, but having too much of it and then as he came down off the sugar high his behavior deteriorated like this. I vividly remember leaving him with my mum for a weekend and when i came back he was like the child from hell and I just couldn't wait to put him to bed. turned out that she'd been giving him cadburys cream eggs .

Could you reduce the glutin rather than cutting it out altogether?

It is tricky to know whether it is just his personality and stage or something more. I think ritualistic 3yos are quite common. DD is always in floods of tears if she can't open the gate coming out of nursery. Of course, DS does this and if he is that way out will open it just to wind her up. She has now added opening the nursery door (so I have to pick her up because obviously nursery door handle is not at child height). Then she has another thing about getting the cereal out of the cupboard in a morning. Again this causes arguments with DS. On Monday night she was having a massive tantrum because she wanted to take DS to Beavers and I already had done when i collected her from her friend's house. Included in this one was a refusal to get out of the car, hitting me etc.

With DD though I think a lot of these can be linked to her being tired or hungry. After a full day at nursery she is tired. First thing in a morning (cereal issues) she is hungry. And on Monday night she fell asleep on her bed (I had left her sat up in the middle of the bed looking at books) when I went down to answer the door when DS was dropped off after Beavers.

Do you think the tired or hungry thing has any effect on DS3?

Also, I think it is sort of copying behaviours they've seen, but it's also about attention and acting things out, in a very unaware way.

DD1 is 3 and has tantrums like this if she is tired, coming down with something, or more strangely, when she has been having a fab time/treat and it is coming to an end. It winds me up big style as I sometimes feel I can't win.

But thought I would just post and say, tbh it sounds like normal 3 year old behaviour - espec if there is someone else to copy (and they see them getting away with it or getting attention). Hope the gluten sorts it out - it could well be that - making his little insides work harder and therefore making him more sluggish and tired.

Think 100x is very insightful. I think a lot of it with DD (youngest child) is asserting her position in the family and gaining some control over things. She wants to take DS to beavers because she perceives this as something he does that she misses out on. She is fiercely competitive/jealous of DS so anything that he has/does she wants.

I have an arrangement with a friend that we take both our DDs to dancing alternating Saturdays and the other one has our DSs at home. Works fine, has been in place for a year with no problem. The other week DD decided that she didn't want friend's Mum to take her, even though she has been doing every other week for a year, she is quite happy to go to friend's house, has even had sleepovers etc there, she wanted me. I am pretty sure that was about controlling me, deciding what I do etc because apparently once she had got in the car and gone she was fine.

You are making sense yurt (how could you not ) In case it helps as a reference point, I think what is going on with ds1 (assuming he is NT, but I have no indication he isn't) is twofold - part of it is getting very passionately attached to certain things, as children do, and some of them taking on ritualistic character (pushing the buttons when we go in lifts is one - oh, and he is heartbroken whenever I change his handtowel - cue 15 mins sobbing and 'I like to have the OOOOOLD one' when a shiny new one is offered), and the other part is, as 100x says, partly a control thing - with him it's the whole refusing 10 times to take his crocs off/hang up his coat/whatever and then screaming blue murder when I lose patience and do it - he likes to push and push and push and still gets a terrible shock when he comes up against a boundary. There's a lot going on with him cognitively atm, his language is having a bit of an explosion, so I'm wondetring whether in his case it's a phase in development which he's having a bit of trouble getting his head round. Is it this sort of scale with ds3, or does it seem more intense - how long does it take him to emerge from a tantrum?

This all sounds reasonable tbh and as if it could fit. I wonder if all 3rd children are mad

He's always been very intense about exerting his will - but it always seemed quite a controlled decision whereas this seems more like a reaction and upsetting to him.

I've just dropped him at his childminders and asked her to let me know how she finds him. She has loads of experience with spectrummy and NT kids. She said last week he was his usual self, so it may well be acting out for me.

yurt-ds2 was a little like this. if i carried his coat downstairs for examo[ple-he would go mad and walk back upstairs so he could carry it down. if i ifted him down from something, he would climb back up so he could climb down himself.
we have had many a melt down over the route we were taking home. he HAD to go one way and if we went another -then omg.

he is fine now he's 4! still stubborn but nothing like as bad.

[*] (just to remind me to come back to this thread when I can carefully go through it. Not that I can contribute much considering the expertise of the OP but some things are remakably familiar to DS... )
)

I think it makes good sense to keep this at the back of your mind Yurt, and to keep watching. I do think 3 y-o are a bit mad and rather wonderful (it might be my favourite age, though also rather keen on 10 at the minute) and I think they do declare their will and act things out and develop passionately - and imaginatively.

Yurt DD is fine at nursery, and definitely worse for me than DH. I would suspect if your experienced childminder finds him to be OK, that would point to NT 3yo ism, rather than AS tendencies.

Yes- I think one change I'd noted was that in the last few weeks he's become not fine at nursery (whereas he always as before). He's moved up a room though so he may be complaining about that. He seems happy enough but the room is a bit more grown up and he does seem tireder.

Well the extra tiredness and general stress of keeping up with older children might be taking its toll? DD is generally at her very worst after nursery (she goes 8-5.15 3 days a week).

Yurt-The things you describe are all things that DS5 (who has AS) would do. He is 9 now and we still sometimes have tantrums about something that has not been done "right" or the way he wants to do it. His rigidity was always there, but got worse as he got older-at 3 it was not as obvious as it was at 6, when he was dx. I think it is the degree of rigidity and the stress they exhibit if things are not done on their terms which make them stand out from NT kids. They don't "get over it"and forget as other kids would.
I seem to remember you being concerned that DS3 may have coeliac disease (as do two of mine!), Did he have the test?