Erm how rigid are 'normal' 3 year olds - ds3 seems to be becoming Aspie before our eyes.....

[yurt1]

... which he might be. He started on gluten back in December and I'm not sure that it's not triggering something. I'm thinking of taking it off.

On the other hand his behaviour could be totally within the realms of normal and I don't want to leap in and see things that aren't there......

Just wondered whether these are in the realms of normal for a just 3 year old.

2 days ago dh took him and ds2 to school/nursery. DH drove down the 'wrong' street (ds3 wanted to go in another way). He had such a tantrum that the head had to take ds2 in and go and find a teacher to come and help dh get ds3 in.

At nursery someone stood up and ds3 sat in their chair. When the child came back he absolutely refused to move - it was his chair.

This morning dh drove off to work and ds3 was in an utter frenzy saying goodbye. He couldn't stop. DH said goodbye about 15 times but it still wasn't enough and huge tantrum when dh drove off.

Now a big tantrum that has been going on for 10 mins or so because I came downstairs carrying his shoes. He wanted to carry them too and now wants me to go back upstairs with the shoes to carry them down with him. Er no.

This rigidity/ritualistic behaviour has come literally out of nowhere (he;s always been highly strung but not like this). I wondered whether he was going down with something but nothing has surfaced and the behaviour has got worse. It is kind of similar to ds1's behaviour on gluten (bit frenzied).

Would appreciate some idea of whether this is within the realms of normal or whether I need to run around like a headless chicken chucking in biomed stuff before some sort of full blown regression sets in.

Hi Yurt,

Lots of this sounds like normal NT 3YO beahaviour, My DD2 (3.4 NT i think) is very much the centre of attention at out house at the moment. Her bahavior is shocking she really is 3 going on 15 at the moment, far more bother that DD1 (5 AS). Everything has to be just so certain dish, plate, spoon ect. Certain shoes clothing she will only wear skirts. Tbh she is driving my round the bend. Her tempers is appalling she is constantly mean to DD2, i could go on but the list is endless.

I have put alot of this down to most of the conversations at the moment are about DD1, shes had problems at school (and is about to start at a new one after the hols). So every time someone vistits or phones the conversations tend to revolve around DD1. I think that DD2 has picked up on all this and has turned into the monster for attention. We have tried to give her more 1 to 1 time, but i think we are stuck in a rut at the moment, as she has just got used to being a horror, so breaking the habit is going to be a tuff one.

DD1 at 3, was no bother atall, the main Aspie/ASD things that she did at this age was poor eye contact, zero social skills (with peers fine with adults), and the need for a very strict routine, obsessions (barney at the time). Looking back (and compairing my 2) she was very advanced at 3, she knew her alphabet (backward and forwards), she would also number the alphabet (ie G = 7), she could count upto whatever (1000s). It was around this age that i started to think that maybe she wasnt NT but my main reason was her lack of social skills more than anything.

Anyway enough of my rambleing ive just noticed how long this is .

And i also feel like im teaching you to suck eggs, so i really hope this helps xxx

yurt1, I have an NT dd 4.8 that is the opposite of laidback and the epitome of stubborn and persistent.

I would say that at 3, the tantrums for not getting her way were starting to fade, rather than increase. But she had a early start from baby age.

The tantrums are still there, but more related to us not doing what she wants NOW, rather than based on any particular ritual. ie what triggers off a tantrum one day (she only wants to have her hair tied up in bunches, not ponytails, or she wants her Ribena in a beaker rather than a cup), completely does not trouble her the next day. And usually, it is worse because she is tired or hungry.

Also, she is easy as pie with people other than dh and I. At school/nursery, she is the paragon of obedience and social. She reserves her stubborn behaviour for home.

I don't think she would wave good bye 15 times.

I am of course describing my completely individual dd, just a point of reference, which may or may not be helpful to you.

We saw the doc, who wanted a poo sample and then his poos went completely normal again. Although funnily enough they weren't today. I think he does get over it reasonably quickly usually although I think his stress is out of proportion. That's a useful distinction Tiggi, thanks.

I think he is doing a bit too much nursery bozza - 4 days most weeks (sometimes picked up at 3, sometimes 5) and about every other week at a childminders. He likes to be busy, but perhaps he's too busy.

I would try and get them to do the blood test before you take gluten out of his diet. (My two coeliacs did not have consistent diarrhoea-in fact just the opposite a lot of the time).

DS2 can be pretty rigid, especially about tings like chairs and his tantrums- even at seven- are a marvel to behold (unless you're the one who has to colean up / replace the broken furniture!).

Like someone else said as well, ds2 exhibits ASD behaviour at times because he lives autistic behaviour- it's normal for children to mimic their siblings after all!.

I would agree with the others, scrap the gluten (isn't the stealing a pain? DS1 will get up at 3am if he thinks there's a slice of bread to be had), and try to relax- you won't completely of course, but give him a chance to grow through it- if he's stilla cting the same way in a year then maybe rethink?

i just read your op

i dont know about normal etc but my ds is was very much like that

he manages it a lot better now he is nearly 20

but from a toddler was a very big thing

i didnt however know any other children like that

the onlky one who came close was a chat i had with essbee a few years ago

yurt, i dont know anything about sn. but my 3yo can be like that at times. and my 2yo.

yurt, I have a thoroughly NT nephew who was a monster pain of this kind around 3-4.

And on the other hand, my ds (nearly 9), the one who does give people including proper professionals a bit of a spectrum-related Pause for Thought - although he's probably going to end up functional enough that intervention isn't needed - wouldn't have done any of this. (He was one of those who as a toddler was a bit too amenably passive, which, with hindsight, was the signal for his issues.)

Both my DSs, who are as far as I know NT, have had phases like this.

DS1, who has the food intolerances and is a bit 'extreme' (lots of ADHD and dyspraxia descriptions ring true, but there are not enough of them or they are mildish), had certain very fixed routines at 3 and 4 - he would have an absolute meltdown about not pushing the buttons on the microwave and the lift, and about getting in the bath before DS2. When I put him on a exclusion diet at 5, those behaviours disappeared within 3 weeks.

So I agree with you about the gluten. All the behaviours can be 'normal', but in DS1's case it was the number and extent of them that stood out.

DS1 has had lots of 'off diet' food in the last two weeks and he is madly chewing his pyjamas and having nosebleeds.

DS2 is more rigid in some ways - he's 6 now, but still sobbed desperately when I got him a new reading folder and thrown his old one away. He would still, when tired, do some of the things you describe, eg about saying goodbye on the phone.

I'm back...

DS was very rigid at that age, and still is in some aspects.

As you are aware, with our family background and his history of allergies and intolerances, there is always the possibility of him not being as NT as we think. However, I think that much of the behaviour is gettting better although if he is tired, stressed, or there are some changes in his environment/routine, they are exarcerbated.

DS has been giving me 20+ kisses when I drop him at school, finishes and then starts again and in ocassion, he has had a tantrum if I leave and then he realises he wanted yet another kiss. BUT, I have tried to control it a bit by saying "we are only going to have 5 kisses today because we are late" and he seems much better. Last week he only gave me one before disapearing through the door.

Thinking of that, I used to be like that until I was older than him (way older, I'm afraid ). I'm still very rigid about certain things but, from the little I know about AS, I would consider myself within the normal as I'm good at reading body language and very intuitive in finding about people's feelings. So.. in a nutshell, if it persists it may be a personality trait, not necesarily "aspie" behaviour. But remove the glutten just in case

HTH

the other weird thing that ds used to do was smell me when i came in or picked him up from school etc

he wouldnt wear school trousers only trackie btms

and lots of other things no moving furniture

terrible on holidays

he is still allowed to do different things himself but everyone else has to behave in a predictable way ie i am expected to be in the house if he considers an in the house time for me but he can do whatever he likes

Could be a control thing. DD2 wants to go the way she decides to school.
Just now she went into one because I tried to help her take her boots off. I unzipped one boot to help her and she screeched and kicked me on the arm. (I could tell she wanted to do it up again and take it off herself.) She often re-does tasks that she wanted to do herself and got helped with by mistake.

The goodbye thing sounds like her too. I think she's just quirky, but I'm personally not worried about that behaviour. (Maybe I should be.) (The chair thing sounds very normal too.)

my second child was like this at that age and we are still keeping an eye on it (he's 6 now). He is very rigid in his routine and has meltdowns when events happen that do not conform with what he has expected (if that makes sense).

I agree with 100 but also think you need to bear in mind his age and also his overall behaviour.

I think if we had had an assessment done at that age, I'm almost certain we would have been told that he had asperger's tendencies (his nursery suggested it at the time because they thought he had 'emotional' problems). We didn't resist it but wanted to give him time and as he's got older, he has become better about handling himself.

For ds, and I don't know whether this is a factor with your ds, a massive frustration was not being to express himself properly. He would often meltdown/scream/go mad if he couldn't get across what was wrong quick enough.

It took years of gentle 'right, let's find the words shall we?' while he was jumping up and down and going mad before that started to be addressed!

I think it's important to keep explaining things to them but very factually. But also, work on him talking about his feelings. So 'oh I understand you are cross about me carrying your shoes because you wanted to. Next time, tell mummy that you would like to carry your shoes and then I won't go and get them. Shall we practise that now? Why don't you show me how you ask me?'.

I know it sounds a bit anal but with meltdowns/screaming/anger, a lot of it seems to be coming out because they can't express themselves or be understood quick enough for them. You expect this at 3 I think, certainly in children who are highly emotional/strung.

Thanks for these comments. Appreciated.I'm reading and digesting.

That's an interesting point about frustration Foxinsocks. I tend to think of ds1's language as brilliant as it's so much better than either of his brother's at his age but he does get very cross indeed if he thinks he;s been misunderstood. So it may not be operating at the level he wants it to.

Am off to pick him up from the childminders so will see how he got on.

my friend's DS was like that aged 3. He was the youngest of 5, so when she sought advice, they advised it was due to him being the youngest of 5/spending a lot of time with elder siblings as well as his mum. When she put things in place on that basis (more time with her and consistency with all his carers), his behaviour improved. I would remove the gluten to see if that has affected him though....

DD's language is very good and clear when talking to family, friends etc but she is shy and has that little-shy-girl-voice that she uses if she lacks confidence in a situation. My Mum always comments on how fantastic she is on the phonse. So I think she has moved on from the communication frustration tantrums.

DD is nearly 4 but about 6 months ago I would say she got

a) extremely upset if she hadn't had the right number of kisses and hugs in Goodbye (although this was in single digits)

b) walking the wrong way could have set her off in a tantrum (although her tantrums are thankfully short lived)

c) I could imagine a freak-out at the 'I wanted to carry the shoes' incident too

I would say she is much more stubborn and intransigent than DS was at this age, he was much more amenable. But I would also say that your DS3's behaviour sounds more marked.

Well he was fine at the childminder's but got totally ritualistic getting back into the car. I had to stand in a certain place whilst he put a toy phone down in particular way.

She said at one stage his eyes sort of went off and appeared to blank out. He does have a squint but she said this was more marked. Absences have been a recurring worry of mine with him- but the potential spells are so short lived that I find it hard to tell (although have kept an eye). He has had one seizure, but that was febrile.

Hi.
The sounds just like dd1 who has AS, a week ago a child told her to do somthing she did'nt want to do at nursery, now evry time its time to go outside (where it happened) she has a huge tantrum and refuses to go out, once she gets outside she is fine.

If i drive a different way to nursery she screem's.

He could also be echoing DS's behaviour

Would it be a big thing to restrict gluten? Just to see?

have you spoken to the GP about the absences? It's probably worth getting those checked out

it is hard to tell with those sort of things...whether they are just switching off or having a proper 'absence' isn't it

Yes really hard. Every time it happens I think I'll keep a watch. I have occasionally asked nursery etc to see what they think, but today was the first time anyone has said anything.

He is on a pretty gluten restricted diet anyway (which is easy). Going totally gluten free will be harder. He's going to kick of big time if not allowed sandwiches for tea at nursery for example.

does it really make a difference yurt (the gluten free)?

I noticed ds improved when we stopped letting him have cheese after lunchtime. If he had it any later than that, it gave him terrible nightmares (which made him tired, which made the tantrums worse....etc. etc.)