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Original poster

Erm how rigid are 'normal' 3 year olds - ds3 seems to be becoming Aspie before our eyes.....

95 replies

yurt1 · 20/03/2008 08:32

... which he might be. He started on gluten back in December and I'm not sure that it's not triggering something. I'm thinking of taking it off.

On the other hand his behaviour could be totally within the realms of normal and I don't want to leap in and see things that aren't there......

Just wondered whether these are in the realms of normal for a just 3 year old.

2 days ago dh took him and ds2 to school/nursery. DH drove down the 'wrong' street (ds3 wanted to go in another way). He had such a tantrum that the head had to take ds2 in and go and find a teacher to come and help dh get ds3 in.

At nursery someone stood up and ds3 sat in their chair. When the child came back he absolutely refused to move - it was his chair.

This morning dh drove off to work and ds3 was in an utter frenzy saying goodbye. He couldn't stop. DH said goodbye about 15 times but it still wasn't enough and huge tantrum when dh drove off.

Now a big tantrum that has been going on for 10 mins or so because I came downstairs carrying his shoes. He wanted to carry them too and now wants me to go back upstairs with the shoes to carry them down with him. Er no.

This rigidity/ritualistic behaviour has come literally out of nowhere (he;s always been highly strung but not like this). I wondered whether he was going down with something but nothing has surfaced and the behaviour has got worse. It is kind of similar to ds1's behaviour on gluten (bit frenzied).

Would appreciate some idea of whether this is within the realms of normal or whether I need to run around like a headless chicken chucking in biomed stuff before some sort of full blown regression sets in.

OP posts:
foxinsocks · 20/03/2008 15:51

do I know you (on here)? have just twigged who you might be (doh!)

ahundredtimes · 20/03/2008 16:47

Yurt - I feel a bit like I'm talking to the grandmother with my basket of proverbial eggs -

but how does he do against an AS or HFA checklist do you think?

poptot · 20/03/2008 17:04

This sounds just like ds 4, I have to build in 'tantrum time' into the morning routine and he is completely rigid about some things. The going into school is exactly the same as ds, one morning he was screaming so much going into nursery the head came out to see where the mass murder was happening!! His totally rigid thing is socks if they don't feel 'right' he has to go back and get new ones this can happen up to three times a morning. It is exhausting but I do think it is just a phase. Like you I have worried about as but his teachers tell me there are absolutely no signs of it at nursery so suggest it is just him!

Original poster
yurt1 · 20/03/2008 23:43

Thanks all. I don't think he'd check enough boxes yet 100x he plays well, imagination is great and knows how to play with other children. I just wonder worry whether it's the start of a regression.

I remembered today that Donna Williams sent me some info about rapid cycling bipolar in children. She sent it as being of potential interest wrt ds1. I read it and thought it wasn't relevant to ds1 but did sounds very like ds3. I think she recommends some supplements. So will check that out.

OP posts:
TalkroundupElf · 20/03/2008 23:51

I've read this thread with massive interest, and just thought i needed to say thank you. My sister has been having problems with her sons behaviour, and after reading this and doing abit more digging around, we are 90% convinced that Gluten may be playing a part in it. This is not something which any of us had even considered.
In all honesty, this thread could have been written by my sister, as all the examples are bang on what my nephew has been experiencing!

She is taking him to the GP next week, and hopefully she can get the ball rolling!

So thank you Yurt1, for bringing this to our attention, and hopefully this will be the answer we have been searching for

Original poster
yurt1 · 21/03/2008 06:49

Warn her the GP may look at her like she's mad. I'm not sure that ds3 is coeliac. There can be a different problem at play that causes problems with gluten which most GP's either aren't aware of or are dubious about.

Does anyone know whether absences can kick in this early. I remember when I looked it up before when ds3 was much younger it said that it usually starts around 5. I wondered whether it was a case of that was when it was noticed though (easier to spot in a 5 year old than a 2 year old I would think).

OP posts:
sorkycake · 21/03/2008 07:12

He sounds NT to me from OP info.

MeMySonAndI · 21/03/2008 09:37

How long are the absences? (starts to panic about DS)

TotalChaos · 21/03/2008 09:41

DS had I think one obvious "absence" when at NHS SALT appointment when he was 3.8 - he stopped cooperating with trying to speak about the activity cards, and seemed to shut down, and it was as if his eyes had glazed over - think the formal situation and all that speaking overwhelmed him. That's the only absence I think he's ever had though, and there was no regression afterwards. So even if it is an ASD type absence, it may not be part of a pattern iyswim.

Original poster
yurt1 · 21/03/2008 09:44

The absences are quick MeMySon - about 5 -10 seconds I'd say. He's had one very long one (passed out for 8 minutes- but that was febrile). He has a squint as well which makes it a bit harder to tell as he sometimes has trouble focusing. You can wave a hand in front of his face and he takes a while to respond, but because they're short not that long.

Have to say he's back to his usual self in other ways today. A few stubborn moments - but entirely within his normal range. I think we're going to try some enzymes plus a low gluten diet (which he is on already).

Those sounds a but like ds1 TotalChaos. I think it's 'intentional' in his case

OP posts:
Original poster
yurt1 · 21/03/2008 09:52

What are your son's like MMMS? I find it really hard to tell tbh. I always have a rule if someone else spots something I have a pondering concern about then I'll consult someone - so I perhaps follow this up now. But I"ll try and watch closely over the long weekend. I don't know. They're short so it's hard to tell.

OP posts:
foxinsocks · 21/03/2008 09:54

yurt, I'm not a big supplement person myself but I do think we saw some difference with ds and fish oils. I have no idea if it's coincidence or not but even dh, who is more sceptical than me, bought some the other day because they really appear to have an effect on his behaviour.

Re the absences, ds had a little friend at nursery with them and I think she was 4. But I have no idea, medically, whether there is some lower age limit or not or how long they have to last to be absences. I had a bad squint as a child and people often thought I wasn't concentrating - I think when it's hard to see properly, you do switch off a bit more often (I assume you're thinking of AS style absences rather than epilepsy style absences? otherwise, it's worth asking the GP).

Mercy · 21/03/2008 09:57

Have only read your OP.

My ds has just turned 4 and behaves in this way too sometimes. He is incredibly stubborn and has loads of little rituals.

Original poster
yurt1 · 21/03/2008 09:59

I was actually thinking of epilepsy type absences as they've been around for a lot longer than the recent behaviours and he has had a confirmed seizure.

I think you're right about the squint though, and he does have some focusing problems. That's what I've tended to put it down to in the past. And it may well be that.

He does seem a lot better this morning though. Bit of a cold/cough has come out.

I've tried giving him fish oils- but ds2 is the only one who will take them (and he's the one that needs them the least )

OP posts:
ladytophamhatt · 21/03/2008 10:52

my ds3 is like this too Yurt, he's 4.6 and will still have moments were he cries snd screams because something is not done teh way he like it. He is NT but the most stubborn of all of them (maybe Ds4 will be even worse....yikes!!)

When he was younger I used to have to go out a wave DH off to work with him because he'd been so ingrossed in what he was doing he couldn't leave it and wave as he actually left. DH would have been long gone, prob at work 8 miles away before we waved but I still had to do the "Look ....can you see him...look, that teeny little dot up the road??...look he's waving back....see him??" while holding ds3 up in the air. He'd wave at the imaginary DH we'd go in and caryy on the day.
It was the only thing that would stop him whinging crying about wanting to wave him off, he would have gone one for hours if I didn't.

Same with particular chairs, the big dsses would both have to move.

Certain clothes, even now, he simply will not wear some items in his wardrobe (I must sort them all out acrually to make everyone life easier). His lip starts to quivver as soon as I get one of the banned items out. He'd be in floods of tears if I actually made him wear it....

Tiggiwinkle · 21/03/2008 11:23

Does he have any other AS traits Yurt (and you know them as well as anyone!) Any sensory issues-won't wear certain clothes, restricted food preferences etc? DS5 had a normal diet as a toddler, but as he grew older his diet became more and more limited.

MeMySonAndI · 21/03/2008 12:03

Yurt, the absences are the way as you describe them, and they are very frequent (on most days, and some time a few times a day). He is very shy, and these happen when someone is trying to coerce some words about him. However... he has had them while sitting at the table or tired, the hand wacing in front of his eyes doesn't make him react.

ok, what may be causing them?

BTW he is not coeliac but it is allergic to wheat.

Can you tell me more about the enzimes? I have heard of them but DS's doctor doesn't, any reference to a place where I can find about them to point it to DS' doctor will be highly appreciated )

MeMySonAndI · 21/03/2008 12:04

words from him

Blandmum · 21/03/2008 12:08

Yurt1, you've met mine when he was just 7, I think the answer is 'very'.

Compared to dd (who yo've also met) it was chalk and cheese

Now granted ds is dyspraxic and he has 'tendencies' but even the ed psych didn't say 'Aspie'

But removing the gluten isn't going to do any harm, is it, as you already do it for ds1

Blandmum · 21/03/2008 12:12

at 3 ds would only eat oblong cho biscuits! Not round ones!

last week I gave him some new food, he said @I don't want to eat this' I said' You've eaten all the ingerdients before and you like them all, eat it!'

and fuck me, he did!

Original poster
yurt1 · 21/03/2008 13:57

MB

MandMySon. Check out MandiMart. I think she has some links on her webpage. She's very knowledgeable. There's a book as well (which I think has an associated webpage) By Karen DeFelice. Called Enzymes for autism and other neurological disorders. I think she has another book that isn't ASD specific, but has the same text or something!

OP posts:
ahundredtimes · 21/03/2008 15:46

Yurt I've been thinking about this - all morning walking across fields in the wrong footwear. And I was thinking about it and I thought I can't say that to her, because she KNOWS everything. And then as I pulled my lovely leather pump out of the muddy hollow, I thought I might anyway.

When ds2 was dx with dyspraxia we WERE given lots of information on Aspergers (thought relevant by the ed psych) and NVLD - and dyspraxia - and giftedness. And having waded my way through it all, I then realized how subtle and strange these things are - when it isn't your full blown far end of the spectrum type problem - and how in the end you can pick and chose those interlinking olympic hoops. And yes, it might be the start of a regression (I hope not) but equally it might just be a set of behaviours which will change and modify and be relevant or not as time goes by. That he will remain imaginative and able, but might be stubborn or rigid too.

God, that was hardly worth it was it? Sorry I am going to attend to my lovely ruined leather pumps now [wail]

Blandmum · 21/03/2008 15:49

I know where you are coming from 100x.

ds has 'oddities' of behaviour, but none of them has a massive impact on our life as a family. He is idiosyncratic rather than pathological IYSWIM. Like his father!

Original poster
yurt1 · 21/03/2008 15:52

DH said the same a100x. Given how much he's gone back to his usual stubborn (but not manic) self today I think he's probably right.

On another note we went to McDonald's today. DS1 was extraordinarily well behaved (apart from looking under a shut toilet cubicle [shame] but he always does that) and we actually blended into the background for the first time in about 6 years. Very odd, although I know his school take him there and I suspect they've done a very good job in teaching behaviour in that particular branch. He even waited without screaming DS3 had a huge tantrum about some escalators, but normal stuff for him.

OP posts:
ahundredtimes · 21/03/2008 15:55

Yes, MB mine is the same. And ds1 is too - he hand flaps and sniffs things and hangs upside down, and rather brilliant at some things and sniffs furniture sometimes, but not people - and he hasn't got a dx of ANYTHING - I mean I don't think he needs one iyswim.

I hope you see what I'm driving at here Yurt, I feel a bit clumsy, and a bit muddy as it happens.