Please help to avoid CantSleepWontSleep's 21 month old dd being exiled from toddler group!

[CantSleepWontSleep]

We were 'spoken to' after toddler group today, and told that several people had noticed that dd is quite 'robust' (a diplomatic way of putting it!), and could I keep more of an eye on her at group, as they didn't want her to put people off coming .

She's a boisterous 21 month old, but was an early walker and has good speech for her age, so I wonder if the other mothers think that she is older than she is, and thus expect more discipline.

Today she bopped another child (who herself went through a similar phase a few months ago, when she was already over 2) on the head with a musical shaker thing. It was unprovoked (and didn't look malicious), but I was 2 inches away when it happened, so can't see how 'keeping an eye on her' is going to help.

I think that possibly the other mother expected me to take a similar approach to the one that she had (time out and made to say sorry), and because I didn't (don't feel it is appropriate at this age) she thinks that I am letting dd get away with it (which to an extent I suppose I am, but I did tell her firmly that it was wrong).

I don't think (or certainly hope) that the group leader would have spoken to me if other parents hadn't chipped in with other comments though.

So, the point of my post, is to ask how I should deal with this? What age appropriate action can I take that will pacify the other parents, but not unnecessarily traumatise dd or make toddler group an unenjoyable experience for both of us?

Sorry for length of post - has been annoying/upsetting me all day and wanted to get relevant info down.

But I can't ignore her for 2 mins when out Chloe, as she can open EVERY door at every group we go to, so she would be out on the road within 2 mins!

I also can't see where to put her at home. She loves playing with the door curtains in the hall, so that would be no punishment, and causes too much damage to everything in other rooms. I absolutely refuse to put her in her cot, as we've had enough sleep problems without her starting to associate going to bed with being told off, so what do I do?! You've seen my house - where would you put her?

@ him getting away with it by looking young - he is small, but his face has suddenly aged so he ain't fooling anyone now!

Between the two stair gates?

No bottom stair gate any more. And the mirror on the mezzanine bit was too much fun anyway . That was where I put her the couple of time that I did try the naughty step previously though.

When I say ignore I mean stay with her but don't speak to her/make eye contact. Ds opens doors too, I hold the living room door so he can't open it (I'm sure people will tell you that's wrong as you should be able to make them stay without having to hold the door but no chance with us) What about your dining room/ spare room upstairs and hold the door if you feel comfortable that she can't hurt herself. Ds just stands there screaming so I know he is safe, besides there is nothing he can possibily injure himself on in the hallway - it's a boring place to be.

I find that the important thing with timeout is the being ignored by me for a few minutes. Even being in their own rooms that are filled with toys does not make them feel better. It is the withdrawl of attention that makes them realise that their behaviour is not acceptable.

I agree with the apology. DS would hit and say say sorry simultaniously, thinking that everything was ok because he had apologised. There is no point in apologies without remorse, and that comes a bit later than 21mths.

I don't like time out, tbh.

Ok, if you know that another child trying to take something is a trigger, you need to:

a) spot when this is about to happen, and swoop in and deal with it appropriately - tell the snatching child not to snatch. Tell your DD to say 'no'. I say 'use your words'. A lot.

b) if you don't spot it ahead of time, you need to acknowledge what your DD is annoyed about, and discuss it with her.

I don't know whether they understand remorse - I certainly see children this age making clear they know they've done something wrong (refusing to answer questions, funny facial expression, etc etc), and making clear to them that saying 'sorry' is what you do when you've done something wrong seems pretty obvious to me.

Oh, and if your child manages to hit another child, you should be making a fuss over the injured child as well. I don't go in for time out per se, but misbehaviour shouldn't earn your attention, iyswim.

I do agree that they know when they have done something wrong, I do not think that they are quite able to feel sorry (ie. to put themselves in the shoes of the child who was hit, to imagine how it would feel to be hit). I think that this empathy starts a bit later than the knowledge of wrongdoing.

If you are not comfortable with time out, then I find the stern talking to should be enough for the other mothers. We had a child in our playgroup who was always bashing other children, but this was all the time. Her mother was a bit soft on her to begin with and she got worse and worse. The only thing that worked was the threat of going home, and only because she followed through one week.

Yes I like the 'making a fuss of the other child' tactic NQC, and have done that when at home with good friends visiting, but it feels a bit odd with children you don't know so well, when their parents are there too, IYKWIM.

Hello you.
All kids go through this phase. The knack is...
do reprimand in a stern voice; she's never going to begin to take notice of you if its always in a sing song voice. And dont refer to her by a pet name while doing it, as that doesnt show her that she's done something to displease you. And doesnt show the parents that you're seriously bothered about her interaction with their children. Apologising to parents is always a good idea to keep the peace, as you view the situation from your dd's point of view, they view it from their kids, IYSWIM.
And removal is always goood, even if they dont stay where you put them. They'll get the idea eventually, that no one is talking to them, and they're suddently not where the fun is.

Sorry; in a hurry to collect a tent, so hope I've expressed this how I intend to!!

We use timeout on the odd occasion with dd2, but tbh, the threat of it, is usually enought to stop her. She can say sorry though, as her and dd1 have to say it quite often to each other usually when found fighting over a toy/crayon/dressing up kit etc, followed by me insisting they 'share nicely'

tbh I do feel that if she is doing it because another child is trying to take something off her - then the other child doesn't deserve any fuss - it is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.
Otherwise, if it is dd instigating it then I would say reprimand, removal, then leave if it continues.

tbh I do feel that if she is doing it because another child is trying to take something off her - then the other child doesn't deserve any fuss - it is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.
Otherwise, if it is dd instigating it then I would say reprimand, removal, then leave if it continues.

pmsl @ not saying it in a sing song voice Not like CSWS at all I have always liked the using full names for telling off. I might have to start pulling middle names out for reprimands.

I need to do the comforting the other child more I think.

There is no 6 of 1 issue with DS - today he just walloped the poor girl time and time again for no reason, and rushed to snatch up any toy she glanced at He is at his worst with that one child though so I think it might be a general dislike too

Oh, he is sneaky too. At one point he was patting/stroking her head in a nice way - then when we looked away he went in for the kill

I'd suggest locking your ds and my dd in a room together so that they can see what it's like from the other side, but last time we did that dd got a black eye and learnt to climb over the back of the sofa!

there was a girl at toddler group who used to follow ds1 around and grab anything that he so much as looked at (he was about 20mo, she was 10mo older). Her mum did NOTHING, to the extend that she ignored her child so much she didn't even know it was going on, and the one time she did see she said to her dd "don't do that, he might hit you, and it would serve you right" . We stopped going . BUT if a mum was dealing with it in any way I wouldn't mind at all.

To possibly give this some context, the group leader may be following guidance she has been given on dealing with situations like this

they state clearly that the child should be asked to leave that session, after any two or three incidents during one session

they also recommend swift removal to another part of the room (by the parent) after the first and / or second incident

I know policies like this can seem harsh but they protect all children in the group and stop major long term problems. I had to seek advice from the PSLA with a very long running serious problem (children being bitten badly enough to cause scarring in one case) and it is helpful to have the policies where necessary. I know it makes nice responsible parents like yourself feel crap though and it is extremely normal for children to behave this way in a group. Good luck with it.

CSWS, what we do with DS2 (limited understanding but older than your DD) is get him to say sorry and then if we are at a group take him to the other side of room and engage him in something else. I would then leave him and go and see if other child is ok. If its a child he knows, then i would take him over after a few mins or when they have stopped crying and say that we are going to see if they are alright and to make friends. I only do all that because of having DS1 and thats what we do with him.

Flame, you need to lock him up
no seriously a bit of pre timeout might work for you too., just remove him and ignore his laughing

Just a tip, My DS1 is hard to handle sometimes and would not stayput for time out, so I introduced the travel cot back in to the room and popped him in there as a time out.

It worked for me.

Also we used to go to a playgroup where a mum never removed her child, she riased only the good behaviour and ignored the bad. He is still hitting and I stopped going as my DS1 started to hit DS2 and when I told him it was wrong he would say "well so and so does it"

CSWS, if DS2 (who is v nearly 22mo) does this sort of thing - and he does (as he has an older brother, he learnt the word "mine" when he was 17mo...fairly soon after DS1 learnt it at 3!) - I tell him no, that we have "kind hands", then sit with him on my lap. He hates being restrained like that - I hold him tight with my knees and put my arms over his, then talk softly to him about being kind to other children, how it's nice to take turns, etc.

DS1 is not a regular sorry-sayer - he will say it, but only if he really means it and won't repeat what he has done. Which is kinda fair enough, I think! DS2 does say it, but I think it's pretty meaningless if they go on and do similar things again - and they will at this age.

I don't think time out alone is appropriate at 21m though. The swirl of strong emotions, coupled with the frustration of fledgling language not being adequate to express those emotions means that often they just need to be held tight and spoken to calmly.

I find it hard to watch when other mums make massive over-demonstrative "I am a good discipliner a la Supernanny" gestures and swoop down on a toddler with all manner of dire threats, because I don't think it helps anything.

These are small people learning to be members of society and they won't behave perfectly at all times.

@ black eye and sofa climbing. He can teach cot escaping now... want us back for a visit?

I like the sitting on lap restraining idea. That might work better for DS.

I'm going to ask at nursery in the morning if he is a big bully there, and if he is, what they do with him.

flame
I find the middle name thing very important for the DCs to judge how serious the situation is. They know by how I address them:

Sweetie - everything hunkydory
DD - not a good idea
DD Surname - Stop that now
DD middlename surname - going to sell you on ebay

hunker - does ds2 just sit calmly whilst you have him restrained on your lap talking to him? I rather suspect that dd would scream blue murder, and bend her head down to bite my arms if they were in front of her holding her arms down, though I might give that a try (if discipline is needed) at home or another group prior to next Tues.

I'm not cross with the group leader, as she was so lovely in the way she said it, but thanks for the context franny.