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Behaviour/development

Talk to others about child development and behaviour stages here. You can find more information on our development calendar.

Come and be a Better Parent with us in the Virtual Village

449 replies

Letsgoforawalk · 13/02/2015 10:34

This was originally started by Another Monkey, the virtual village refers to the phrase that 'It takes a village to raise a child'.

You are welcome to vent, to ask for advice or to give us the benefit of your experience. The only thing we all seem to have in common is that we are all either ‘in there’ or have ‘been there’.

Perfection is not the goal, we are more about, as monkey brilliantly put it “choosing one thing to be less crap at at a time”.

Books recommended so far:
How To Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk
When Your Kids Push Your Buttons
The Happiness Project
Calmer Easier Happier Parenting
The Explosive Child
The Highly Sensitive Child
How to be a Better Parent: No Matter How Badly Your Children Behave or How Busy You Are

Potentially useful websites (useful in quite different ways…..)
www.theorangerhino.com
www.ahaparenting.com
www.renegademothering.com

A wide range of potential sources of advice are listed because all our children are different and no book / technique / tactic will suit every family.

A link to the original thread is shown below, and I think Monkeys OP is worth a read as she sums it all up very well…….

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/behaviour_development/a2002053-Does-anyone-else-want-to-come-and-be-a-better-parent-with-me
wecome Smile

OP posts:
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mandbaby · 18/05/2015 16:04

Thanks for the warm welcomes back.

Bertie, can I ask (big hugs btw) are you a "type a" personality? This question goes for the rest of you actually. I know I am and often wonder if it's because of having that type of personality that I get so easily irritated - because my DSs don't conform to my perfectionist ways (how could they, they're children for heaven's sake, but this doesn't enter my head when I'm in irritated mother mode). I'm sure "type b" personalities make better parents.

BertieBotts · 18/05/2015 23:36

Nope. I am most definitely a type B. I remember looking at this in A level Psychology :) Type As are competitive and always trying to do stuff, right? No, I'm laid back and lazy. I am just snappy with it :( I'm trying to get assessed at the moment to see if I have ADHD as I suspect this is at the root of a lot of my issues - low or very sudden frustration trigger is one which matches up.

DH pointed out that I'm extra moody when I'm on my period Grin he's right! I'm annoyed about that now, because I had got on top of it before and then it stopped happening so I stopped noticing it.

I think that I am more tolerant than most of little things - I really don't care if he gets dirty, I can cope with a certain amount of noise, have always been laid back about furniture, mess, sleep, food (well, mostly laid back about food). It's certain things which set me off and he does them purposefully, probably because I am actually hilarious I suspect when I get going, but it winds me up more if he laughs. I don't know if anybody watched that C4 programme "Born Naughty"? But I really noticed the way that the dad was just calm and in control even when his DD was giving some really extreme behaviour, he just sort of sighed and said "I don't think you wanted to do that, young lady". I'd have been screaming like a banshee, in total "STOP IT!" mode because I wouldn't know what to do. If I can't immediately stop or diminish a behaviour I feel out of control and then I sort of panic and don't know how to handle it at all. It doesn't seem to matter what calming strategies I implement, if I feel myself losing control over him then I can't handle it.

Dreaming, has your DH met any other children? :)

DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep · 20/05/2015 21:51

I'm type B too. I nod along to Bertie's posts as I see myself in so many of them. I also let them get filthy, run riot whenever possible, house is never that tidy, food- so long as they eat I don't care much that no vegetable has passed their lips in many months. But I lost my shit over one pouring a brand new (huge) bottle of bubble mixture away in 5 minutes flat as my husband had cycled to town for it the day before and just the rudeness/ waste/ argh if it all.

Take it from me, type B's are no saintly parents Sad

Yesterday DD told me and my dad she'd like our old nanny (I stopped work March 2014 so this is a while ago now) to look after her again because she doesn't shout. Sad Sad Sad My resolve is re strengthened. I do not want to be the shouty mum. I can't tell you how bad I feel about that.

DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep · 20/05/2015 21:52

And I don't shout that often or all the time, but do just suddenly lose it and clearly it has an impact.

BertieBotts · 20/05/2015 22:03

I think my main issue is not that I'm too hard to begin with, but more that I'm a bit too soft and then it allows him to bend the boundaries all the time, so that when he goes too far, that's already PAST my limit, and I don't know what to do, and I react in adrenaline mode.

I am much better than I used to be. Especially when I had a bit of a breakthrough when helping somebody else - that if my boundary is actually at the limit of what I can take, I can't deal calmly with it if he goes over it, because I'm then in crisis mode. Boundaries need to be lower than the limit I can actually handle, so that when he goes over the boundary, I still feel in control and able to handle it.

It's like road safety, which we ALL manage to do - you don't let them run into the road and then deal with it, because that might be too late. You prevent them from even getting close to it in the first place. If you ever need to remind yourself that you CAN set boundaries, look at how you deal with safety issues like that. You can do it. It's not so hard. But a lot of us don't like doing it especially when we feel it isn't strictly necessary. That's a bit of a mental shift to get into, as was the realisation that the gentle parenting stuff is written primarily for people coming from a very conditional, behaviourist, right/wrong, rewards and punishments driven mindset. It does work when you're not coming from that direction but it's different. One day I'll get my blogging up and running again :)

DS and I had a nice day yesterday. The kindergarten staff are on strike so we had an at home day, watched the Esio Trot film, made some muffins, I even noticed in advance when he was about to enter horrendous TV monster mode and stopped the TV and got him to do his jobs instead, AND we went to the supermarket. He was happy because he got to ride his bike there and he behaved, and he was going to make dinner with me too, but Daddy came home with some new posters, which totally overrode that Grin

BertieBotts · 20/05/2015 22:04

And I'm getting REALLY into the KonMari stuff and it seems to be helping my overall focus, and feeling in control of things and not being so overwhelmed.

mummybare · 21/05/2015 07:35

If you do start blogging, Bertie, I will definitely read it - I identify with all of this so much.

I need to get decluttering/sorting too. It makes such a difference to my state of mind. When everything is clear and organised (which, as a fellow Type B, is pretty rarely) I feel so much calmer and more in control.

I agree about the gentle parenting stuff too. It's useful to a point but it's preaching to the converted to a certain extent. What I really need help with is where and how to set consistent boundaries.

mummybare · 25/05/2015 07:03

I just came across this and really relate. This is what I try to do every day and explains why I find it so exhausting. Anyone else?

Introverted mums.

BertieBotts · 25/05/2015 14:12

Interesting. I am not an introvert but I definitely relate to the introvert feeling, with kids.

However, isn't it a bit of an extreme? To say that you're going to "be attentive to, and present with, my kids the whole day. [Be] interested in every toy they brought over to show me, heed... every cry of concern they had over some cartoon character’s possible demise... listen... to them, play... their games, and [do] everything I could to be the best mom ever." and "be with my kids and attend to their every want and whim" and "to watch every musical act my daughter performs and applaud every puzzle piece my son puts in the right place. I want to laugh at every joke and play every game."

No, that's not what extroverts or "good parents" do. The most extroverted person would struggle to do this towards even one, or two, trusted adult friends. It sounds FAR much for one person to do. I don't think it's introversion which makes this hard, not at all. I don't think that you do need to be there for every little thing, it's not healthy for you, it's not giving them a good model for what is normal, you do need to take time out for you (and not only when they nap) - it's okay to say "Not right now", to expect them to play alone, to let them watch TV, to chuck them outside or into a bedroom for a bit, to sit alongside them and do something else while they do their thing and not really be fully aware of them at all, aside from keeping half an eye on safety issues. It's good for them to see that you're human and you have your own things to do and you can coexist side by side, too.

Okay, so if you're going entire days where you don't do any of these things even once, then that's a problem, and you should be trying to change that. But feeling guilty because you don't do ALL of them, is mad.

AnotherMonkey · 25/05/2015 15:59

That's an interesting link and interesting response too, Bertie.

(My name's monkey and...) I am an introvert, in the sense described in the article. You probably wouldn't know it, but then I've worked hard to overcome a lot of the outward signs (the shyness and anxiety in small talk, for example), to the point where they're often not really even an issue for me anymore.

But that need for solitude to rejuvenate is so true, I am most relaxed in my own company and it is a need - I feel it like a thirst. It's the thing I struggle with most about having two little ones and it's the source of most of my snappiness! So I nodded along to the link.

I think because I am so often searching for those minutes of peace, I feel guilty for not being enthusiastically attentive all the time and I do have to remind myself of what bertie pointed out. The problem is that I might get 10 minutes to read, for example, but I do it with questions being fired at me and little people crawling over me and while that's amazing in it's own way, it's not solitude! Like trying to quench a serious thirst with a bottle of red wine Smile

AnotherMonkey · 25/05/2015 16:35

Or in other words, yep mummybare I can definitely relate to that too Grin

MoreSnowPlease · 25/05/2015 20:50

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mummybare · 26/05/2015 09:22

Glad I'm not the only one, Monkey. I'm also not an obvious introvert – I am sociable and can be quite outgoing in some situations, but I really, REALLY need that alone time to recharge.

Your post really got me thinking, Bertie. Perhaps I am setting myself impossible standards and then beating myself up when I fail to reach them. Because that constant 'presence' is what I aim for, pretty much.

DMIL seems to achieve it. She is great with kids and they absolutely love her, but I guess it's a lot easier when you're the grandparent...

DM was the opposite – bad-tempered, dismissive, controlling. I suppose there's a chance I'm swinging the other way. It's hard to figure out where you ought to be pitching these things when the model you were given was less than ideal.

So, with that in mind, how are people's kids at playing independently? Do you encourage it? And, if so, how?

My 3-year-old seems to constantly need my attention these days. Even if she is ostensibly playing on her own, she is constantly chattering away, demanding my attention. And if I try and go off and cook or sort out washing or something, she inevitably wants to 'help'. And while this is very sweet and an instinct I don't want to discourage, of course it isn't actually helpful and is in fact very draining. Sometimes I just want to get on with things by myself.

BertieBotts · 26/05/2015 10:12

Yes, of course - when it's a grandchild, they don't live with you full time. It's easy to give a guest your full attention, but you don't expect to spend every minute that you're both home interacting with and entertaining and validating your DH, do you?

There is definitely a danger in setting yourself impossible targets. And it is very healthy for children to learn to play separately, too. I don't mean that you should force or push them if they are not ready, but it's good for both you and them to get some space and be able to entertain themselves.

DS was very like that at three. I found it difficult as well. He is less like it now but it's only really been the last six months or so that he's been happier to go off on his own. (So since he turned six). I think he is naturally very extrovert. I remember that I used to keep his most loved toys in his bedroom, so that the pull of those toys would encourage him to go up there and play alone sometimes. And I had to be really strict with laying out what I would and wouldn't do. If I said I'd play for a little bit and then expect him to carry on, it never worked. When I tried to leave he'd cry and strop and if I persuaded him it was fine, he'd then flop around and "try" to play but get immediately bored and come and follow me instead. So he ended up watching loads of TV. But if I was clearer, like I said "I'll help you build the track, but I don't want to play with it" then he'd be happier, knowing what to expect, and then he'd sometimes play a bit more. But he never really played with what I expected him to. I bought loads of Happyland but he mostly just lined up the cars on the road and then got bored. Challenging him to something, like doing a puzzle (he liked puzzles) helped. He didn't like drawing for ages.

By about 4.5 or 5ish, I could turn off the TV and say "No more TV, go and find something to do" and he'd whine and strop about it but then he'd eventually go and do something. But yes a lot of constant questions, commentary, he still does that, he doesn't stop talking!

Don't be afraid to say no to helping. Say yes when you feel up to it, because you're right, it is helpful. But it's also okay to say no sometimes. And it's really okay to expect them to entertain themselves, although a three year old usually needs setting up with something first.

You could start a thread asking people how long they spend actively interacting with their children and what age they are, it might be eye opening. I certainly find/found (much less these days) having one child draining, because when they are little if they want input they can only get it from you. Conversely more children are said to be easier in this respect, although I suppose it might continue being just as constant because one child would do it less but each child might add up to doing it the same amount! :)

mummybare · 26/05/2015 14:30

"[Y]ou don't expect to spend every minute that you're both home interacting with and entertaining and validating your DH, do you?"

No, of course not. I don't feel responsible for his development/self-esteem in the same way, though. But I'm sure you're right and I'm overthinking/overcompensating.

TV is a bit of a double-edged sword with DD and we are currently cold turkey with it. She gets really sucked in, which of course does give me that downtime, but when she is used to having it on regularly, she asks for it All. The. Time. And gets really whiny if I say she can't watch it or she needs to turn it off. And I'm sure it was affecting her behaviour. So I have stopped turning it on because I just decided it wasn't worth it. (Plus I didn't like the idea of having it on so much with DS, 8mo, around.)

I will try the 'challenging' her to do things idea (she likes puzzles too, but generally she wants to do them with someone...). Plus see if there are things I can set her up with. Play doh can occasionally work, or sometimes stickers or bubbles, but they are all potentially pretty messy and they don't seem to hold her attention for very long. Yesterday, though, she actually sat with some Duplo for about 10 minutes by herself. I have my fingers crossed that it will be her new favourite toy!

"You could start a thread asking people how long they spend actively interacting with their children and what age they are, it might be eye opening."

Great idea! I'm going to do that!

Thanks so much Bertie, your posts are really making me think :)

DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep · 26/05/2015 22:19

mummy My DD, at 3, needed me 100% of the time. She was hopeless at doing anything by herself. She is now 4 yrs 8 months and much better, though still likes a lot of presence (which I'm rubbish at). I feel bad as I so often disappoint her when she wants me to do something. Our house is so messy, not that clean, untidy. And yet I seem to spend so much time keeping it at this level- just the preparing/clearing up after meals, sweeping kitchen floor- they go in and out of the garden from the kitchen so it's always covered in leaves/ mud/ footprints where they've come in before shoes have come off/ general filth, laundry and vague efforts at tidying. All interspersed with dc needing drinks, snacks, feeding, help with the potty, sorting out accidents, making the odd phonecall etc. Time. There is not enough time.

My DTs are 3, turned 3 in April. They will play together for quite a while. SOmetimes well, sometimes destructively and then I come in and am so cross/ disappointed. Recently they have played beautifully with their train set and cars (after some set up help) but also spent time pouring cereal onto the floor and adding water and smearing around (i was upstairs folding laundry) and one drew all over our only 3 year old beige fabric sofa Shock. I can therefore confirm that too much 'getting on with it' will lead to great regret Grin I do think it's different for them as they've each other. I try and spend some time playing with them, setting up activities, reading. Never as much as I'd like. Link to your new thread please as I'd be interested- but will it make me feel worse?!

mummybare · 26/05/2015 22:49

Here's the link to the other thread. Some interesting responses. Not too depressing, I don't think.

I think you're being hard on yourself Dreaming. You have a 4yo and 3yo twins! I'm the same - feeling guilty about not spending time, treading water with the housework (actually it's worse than that. The place is a shit tip. As soon as we have a bit more cash coming in I'll be angling to get a cleaner!) but I only have one 3yo and possibly the most low maintenance baby ever! It sounds as though you're doing a grand job and I'm sure when your twins can actually play together without destroying the house, it will all seem worth it Grin

DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep · 26/05/2015 23:02

Shit tip describes our house perfectly!! And i have a cleaner 2 hours a week, which we will have to stop soon- we already cut it down- due to the expense. We used to have 3 hours and it made a huge difference. She basically whizzed over the whole house, did both bathrooms, kitchen floor, all hoovering. With 2 hours it seems only half of that gets done, with other distraction (think goodness the cleaner was here the morning of the sofa incident!). I will read it tomorrow. It's too late now and I already have bad Guilt over bedtime, when I went quickly from ok, to irritable, snappy, totally unreasonable to shouting at them. I then told DT1 I was feeling so cross I wanted to smack him so be quiet while I sorted out his brother (he was shouting and screaming from his bedroom about another story) or I wouldn't come back and give him his cuddle. I didn't get back in time, he was obviously exhausted and fell asleep by himself (very rare anyway) but I feel like a terrible parent. Sad

BlueEyeshadow · 31/05/2015 22:30

Fell off the thread again, so just catching up. Yep, am definitely introverted, and it definitely plays a big role in difficulties interacting with the boys.

We've just got through the half term from hell as all of us have been ill, we haven't been able to do most of the fun stuff that was planned, and we've decided to put our house on the market, which means we're up to our eyes in decorating and stuff to sort out so it can be a show home instead of the usual tip! I know a lot of the upset is due to post-viral fatigue and so on, but I've been catastrophising that all the extra stress will undo the recent improvements.

We've had lots of screaming, stropping and fighting today, which has completely worn me down. I've lost it big time several times today and consequently feel terrible. There have been good times too, though. I need to remind myself of those and focus on them.

drspouse · 01/06/2015 11:06

We've had a bad weekend, to be honest it wasn't all or even mainly behaviour related... Various things happened on Saturday though... we went out for the day and DS went on a bouncy apparatus thingy and also he ran into the road (he was just being slow and we told him to catch up so he decided - usual "check they are watching me and giving me attention" - to walk straight into the road about 20m behind us). I ran after him and shouted a lot and grabbed his arm. He also lay down on the floor a couple of times and had to be picked/pulled up.

It was a good hour or two before we got home after that but as we were just arriving home he started complaining his shoulder was hurting, painkillers helped though and we didn't want to spend Saturday evening in A&E and he did manage to sleep but he was not using his arm at all the next morning.

So DH took him to A&E and it seems his elbow (not his shoulder, which apparently is really obvious) was dislocated. The doctor popped it back in and (as with dislocations I gather) he was immediately better and using his arm as normal (he was home doing "pushups" on the floor within a couple of hours!).

So really I have no idea if we pulled it or he landed on it himself but it has just been very stressful. More refusal to get dressed and pulling off clothes this morning but he doesn't like having to wait till they get to the CM for breakfast, neither does DD, but Monday mornings are a rush without giving them breakfast, it would be an hour earlier getting up if I had to do that as well I reckon! But he was very good walking/riding there and as you all are so tediously aware, it's walking in the street that is one of our real bugbears.

drspouse · 08/06/2015 11:02

Thread was in danger of falling off the bottom but I wanted to come and say some positive things!

DD is now 1 and is getting very active and to be honest starting to be in that annoying, into everything, pre-walking and pulling up phase. I have already had to do the very very stern NO for pressing the shiny lit up button on the washing machine. DS has not turned it off except maybe accidentally for about 6 months but remembered that "if you turn the washing machine off, you have to Go Out" (sit the other side of the stair gate to the kitchen - they can see me from there but not destroy anything!).

DD of course comes to be interested in anything that DS is playing with, especially if I'm doing it too e.g. jigsaws. But we still seem to manage to have some quality time (though to be honest usually while she's napping) and I have not seriously shouted at him for hurting her (running ride-on toy over her, stepping on her hands when wearing shoes) for at least a week. Or maybe two. The current DS to DD problem is really him sitting on her/giving her enthusiastic cuddles/being too "in her face" which is much more "boisterous 3 year old" and less "see if I can hurt her and get attention".

And DS is actually being not too bad about DD getting his stuff though there have been a few slaps, I would in some ways rather they were for normal frustration with her grabbing, not simply hurting her to get attention.

We are doing much much better on the walking front too - yesterday I took DS for a really decent walk to feed the ducks, over the bridge that has the trolls in, we fed some swans and their babies, sat down on a bench for a rest, met DH who had taken DD into town in the buggy, then back to the park where I stayed with the DCs while DH made tea. DS walked about 1 1/2 miles all told and even when we had the buggy only asked once to get on the buggy board and then thought better of it.

drspouse · 06/07/2015 13:45

Gosh - do we have a new thread I haven't spotted? Or is everyone having no issues at all? Or talking behind my back? Well and truly dropped off my threads!

BertieBotts · 07/07/2015 17:18

Hi! Yes I was thinking it was time for a bump, oops! I know threads I'm on only checks threads for 21 days or so, so we'd better bump it lots to get the others back too Wink

Things are going well here. I'm generally finding myself enjoying DS more, except that we're in the middle of a horrible heatwave which makes all of us grumpy and intolerant. He wrote me a lovely story for my birthday.

Does your washing machine not come with a child lock to prevent the buttons from doing anything? I know DS was fascinated by buttons at that age, and they see you pressing them so they don't understand that they can't. They won't have any concept of the cycle being half done, of course. DS used to turn my computer off. I developed a little trick where I found if I opened a notepad file and wrote some nonsense in it, when he tried to shut down the computer by pressing the button, it would come up saying "Do you want to save this?" and if I clicked cancel instead of yes or no, it would stop shutting down! But even that got annoying, so I went into settings and disabled the button entirely.

drspouse · 07/07/2015 21:09

The child lock only stops them from changing the programme, not from switching it off entirely. But she seems to have moved on to something else.

I'm also enjoying DS a bit more and walking places continues to go well. He's also nearly dry at night which isn't exactly behaviour but he was getting horrid nappy rash which is why we tried it, so I bet he feels more comfortable.

We are back to hitting though, and on the nursery rules board his name is next to "we don't hit". The main flash points at home seem to be dressing, and when DD is annoying. I think I'm going to try praising him for getting dressed without hitting, though it seems more counterintuitive than some of my other praise e.g. not splashing in the bath.

I have a few days without childcare over the next couple of weeks and I'm actually looking forward to days out though it's badly timed (both DH and I have a lot on at work).

I am curious about sensory sensitivity, if any of you have any experience. My reading says that it doesn't happen alone (and I trust what I've read), it is part of delay/ASD etc and he doesn't have any of those issues, his language is great, a few motor issues (late walker, no drawing skills at all at 3 1/2, just scribbles). But there are some birth/genetic worries. The main things I see are getting upset about cups being wet on the outside, a new issue with any tiny noise in the house when he's in bed (though maybe he's sleeping more lightly now he can get up to use the loo?), and though most clothes are ok he is very fussy about socks. He also hates showers though is improving on that but the little friends he swims with all love them.
It doesn't sound much actually and mainly normal 3yo stuff but the cup thing is a bit weird.
I didn't want to post on the main parenting threads as everyone would say "they're all like that" but adoptive parents will probably all say "ooh yes definitely an issue" and there's a tendency to assume all adopted children are the same also.

BertieBotts · 07/07/2015 22:05

Oh, is he adopted? I missed that. Clearly I'm unobservant!

I have some sensory issues myself (comorbid with ADHD) and DS has some mild ones (he is also fussy about socks). He is not diagnosed with anything. I think I'd be bothered by a cup being wet on the outside, I don't like to touch wet things. Maybe just give him a dry cloth when he drinks, and don't worry about it too much? I think it can get a bit that you're constantly looking out for symptoms and finding them where perhaps it's just normal stuff. Or perhaps it is something more, but it's easily fixable - cloth, non spill cups. I wouldn't give it another second's thought :) I think that if sensory issues get to a point where it's concerning, you'd know. And until then, just deal with each individual thing as it comes up if it's easy to do so.

With praise for getting dressed without hitting, you could try something like "You got dressed very calmly today" or "I'm proud of you for staying in control". Is he able to dress himself much yet? That might distract him from whatever is causing him to hit. Or vice versa, if he's frustrated because he can't do things, choose easy clothes to get on and/or offer lots of help. Basically you want to set him up to win and then you have the opportunity to praise.