childrens behaviour - is there such a thing as just a naughty child - why does everything have to be given a medical name?

[beatty]

In society in the UK these days I think that some unacceptable behaviours in children are too quickly given a medical name. Why can't people just say that some children are naughty and need to be taught discipline rather than giving the a disorder or medical name to hide behind which then makes the behaviour more acceptable. "oh well yes the reason he behaved like that is because he suffers with X". "oh well that ok then bring on some treatment". this costs the NHS thousands where just a bit of discipline and time spent with children would do wonders. Other countries in Europe have so many fewer "behavioural problems" than here. Why is that?
I have just seen a programme this morning where children who don't know right from wrong after the age of about 3 years old has now been given a medical name...utter tosh...just parents/guardians that are probably just too lazy to bother or even badly behaved themselves (yes discipline does beginat home).

I do understand about many behavioural problems as I am a teacher and see the genuine ones every day but everything is now being given a name. When will people understand that there are naughty children out there and that's just what they are - is not medical problem!!

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I don't think that he did.

I think that the mother saw him swear at home and tourettes explained and excused it for her.

He never swore at me, or any other teacher in the school. he never pretended to have the condition as far as I could see. This was his mothers way of excusing him.

As you say very odd.

But it did happen.

The kids just say that becausr theu think we will accept it on face value and excuse their behaviour.

Agree peachyclair- it's just the (often quoted) idea that everyone is going to go for a dx so they can get DLA, when in fact a)you don't need a dx to get DLA and as you have said you still need 2 professional reports. Yeah right, first thing I thought when we started having conerns was "hoorah dla", I hadn't even heard of it until after dx.

Think there's plenty of self dx going on, think the numbers of those that translate into inaccurate dx are minute.

agree totaly jj.

and onviously some of the self diagnosis is , in the end, a real dx.

Just not all of it.

I see plenty of vile brattish NT kids around incidentally (give me a kid with a dx anyday), but I still do not believe that these children can turn up to the GP's and get fast tracked through the system to a quick dx. I'm sure that anyone who has tried to get any sort of ASD/ADHD/ADD diagnosis will have found the same (we had it relatively easy once we were actually in the system- that took a year- once in ds1 had a multidisciplinary assessment over 6 weeks including seeing a specialist SALT, a clincial psych, a consultant paed, a specialist HV and was observed in a nursery setting by nursery teachers. At the end of that he receievd his dx. And he's severe. So fairly classical.

I don't think that they can either FWIW. However I have come across lots of parents of these bratty NT kids excusing them by saying 'He is a bit hyperactive, don't you think?'

to which the answer is generaly, no I don't think. And anyways I'm a teacher not an ed psych

oh yes the "bit hyperactive" is generally a warning that there has been no official dx

I agree with all that. I have self dx'd myself with AS, but i am aware of that- I wouldn't fream of claiming any Uni disability benefots or DLA without a DX. And I'm not getting a DX any time soon coz I am too shy to discuss with a GP.

So when i refer to myself and As I generalyy (but occasionally forget) to put 'I believe I have ' or something similar.

Dh does call me his little Aspie however-

So who here has just popped on down to the local docs and happily got dx of ADHD/ASD etc?
And then who has popped off and just applied and got DLA?
Quite
Facing the battle from the other side, desperately trying to get a dx for a child with real problems, however they manifest themselves, trying to get support/education and funding - it is impossible to believe that people are getting an official dx.
I do get the point about parents using certain words to term their kids behaviour. like Jimjams just said - oooh yes a bit hyperactive etc..

remembering of course that hyperactive does just mean very active

so I would say DS2 is being a bit hyperactive today- but I wouldn't say he has ADHD, or mean it

Had to pop along and give you the benefit of my advice though im probably the wrong one to give it given my obvious poor parenting skills and my sons dx of Aspergers co morbid adhd obviously there was nothing wrong with him last week but felt the need for some extra cash so nipped along to tesco picked up a box of cornflakes with a free dx inside on special offer applied for dla and bobs your uncle, now i can spend all that extra cash on alcahol and wild nights with the girls leaving my son like the lazy neglectful abusive parent i am.

oh no i forgot it took 8 years of hell to get a dx gps dont refer schools dont listen. teaching staff are too up themselves with professional pride and really are unaware of what we the parents have to go through until this post i wasnt really aware of the extent of this so thankyou its really good to know we are seen in this light it will help in future contact with the school .... you know makes me laugh though to think you think we would go through all this and potentially harm our children just to get some DLA when this teacher is happy to take her large salary and not give a shit about or understand the children she is teaching i hope my child never ends up in your class what happened to the new reform every child matters or is that unless you write him off first

I remember that when I mentioned we had got DLA to the senco she said' well that's nice for you'

Ahem! DLA is for the child. The letters are even addressed to DS1. The money goes on special foods for his diets, redoing his room in a (semi successful) attempt to create a calm time out zone; melatonin; replacing shoes he wears out a pair a week; repairing damage done in ameltdowns- somehow I don't think Dla covers it. ndeed, if anyone thinks I wouldn't ahnd vack every penny for DS to be free of ASD they're barmy; outr lives are dictated by the condition.

In our case almost all our DLA goes on montessori nursery for dd
No govt funding as the funding has changed now

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This thread made me angry at first, now its made me sad here we are again girls justifying ourselves when we have done nothing wrong our kids get what they are entitled to which is much less than they deserve.
I use my sons dla so he can have fun and enjoy himself as hes a child, i feel this is what he should be doing and he misses out on so much ,because he cant join in with his peers at school,no one invites him to tea or for partys he doesnt meet his mates for football as he has no mates and he is very lonely and depressed by this.
If anyone thinks this is wrong then your more than welcome to come try my life for a week and see wether you think he should do without his forty quid dla.

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I grew up in a deaf family - sister and both parents so have learnt the hard way how difficult it is to get support and teachers to be sympathetic. In addition I am also a univeristy lecturer who is personal tutor to students with SN of all sorts i.e. Aspergers, sensory problems, physical, mental health etc - to name but a few.

However I have to say even at this level it is very difficult to sort out those students who have genuine needs and thus need specific help and tuition from staff and those who are suffering from a lack of manners or discipline. It is also extermely difficult to be knowledgable about ALL conditions and mistakes (rightly or wrongly) are made which I do appreciate must be very frustrating for both students and their relatives.

Point I am trying to make is how can we ensure that over stretched teachers can establish the difference between children with SN and those that are 'naughty' sometimes?

Peant, get your point (and am a Uni student so ahve seen the student behaviour yur efer to LOL) but most of us are referring to people with a DX. It's not hard to get info about a dx (a google will do it) and people in jobs where they ahve a responsibility to support these kids are perfectly able to pick up the phone and call people like the NAS (aspergers / ASD) et al.

There si also the thing that with most of these named invisible disabilities, poelpe of older school child or student age are often the best informed people to approach for info.

Peachy - I agree in HE it is easier because the student themselves provides the information about what help they need and can inform us easily if they feel their needs are not being met or if they are being treated unfairly. Naturally children are not able to vocalise what they are experiencing so, yes, it is up to schools (and parents) to obtain the necessary information. If my attention is drawn to a student with a specific disability, in tandem with student services, I will do my best to equip myself with details of that condition so that I can offer appropriate support. But sadly this is not typical.

In agreement with earlier posts I do get irritated with those students (and even parents of said students!) who 'pretend' to have a condition in order to cover up for sheer laziness and/or lack of ability. This makes it harder for those who do have a DX to get taken seriously by some academics - and I would imagine this must be the case for school teachers too.

Should have added that teaching staff here generally work 50+ hrs a week so time is an issue also Student Services are over stretched so often needs are neglected or not acknowledged due to poor funding not reaching those who need it the most. Not making excuses but the state of education is appalling - under staffed and under funded. I wish I could afford to send my LO to private school when the time comes to avoid many of the scenarios and experiences outlined in this thread

Point I am trying to make is how can we ensure that over stretched teachers can establish the difference between children with SN and those that are 'naughty' sometimes

Exactly by that, all children are naughty sometimes. Children with sen have difficulties on a daily basis, any staff dealing with our children in inclusive schools should have the relevant training and surely any child who is seeminly rude or is displaying inappropriate behaviour on a regular basis is entitled to support to address these issues.
After all these kids NT or SEN are the future and deserve to be given equal life chances,not written off. At the end of the day teachers teach and doctors diagnose for a reason and its not a teacher place to judge a child is there job to teach, support and include.

Sue I'm a teacher in MS school and would fully agree with your comment

' At the end of the day teachers teach and doctors diagnose for a reason and its not a teacher place to judge a child is there job to teach, support and include. '

It is my job to teach support and include. Now comes the 'but' [week smile emoticon needed]

The trouble is we don't have the facilities that we need or the support that we need to include children. I am increasingly asked to teach and include children with high levels of autism with no classroom support.

Last Year I taught a class of 18 children, 8 of whom were on the SEN regester....more of them have now been added. I had a child with a high level of asd, a child with asd/adha/ebd, three children with dyslexia...with reading ages of 6 (they were 11-12), two children with ebd and one persistant truant. One child spoke little english I had no assistance at all. The remaining children all found school difficult, and the work set, although I used SEN resources,very difficult to access.

I had to try to teach an include all of them. I'll be upfront and say that I (and the school system) failed these children. But it wasn't for the want of trying on my part. I simply didn't have the help on hand that these kids needed.

As a teacher in a mainstream school, latterly working in a learning support department, I would echo your frustration which is shared by many teachers. We are not trained to diagnose special needs such as ADHD, but generally have suspiscions with regards to some children. However, it is enormously difficult to act on those. In our school, funding for LSAs came with children with statements. I don't need to elaborate on the tortuous path to obtaining a statement, so at any one time, we would have large numbers of pupils who needed support but who received no funding. SO we would try to make sure those children were in classes where there was an LSA working with a child with a statement. But the parents of that child may well take exception to the "diluting" of that LSA time with their own child. And it is hard for the LSA to cover all the children needing support in a class without creating a ghetto of mismatched children with different types of SEN.
Trying to get an Ed Psych appointment to assess a child is not strightforward, We have limited hours allocated of ed psych time and it can be very hard to prioritise. The availability of other support services is also dire. SO support is specified on a statement (eg SALT) that isn't provided, because there is no-one to do it. I was truly horrified with the situation when I started working in learning support. It also made me think much more about some of the children I taught in Science. As a secondary teacher it is hard to comprehend what a reading age of 6 or 7 actually means. Without support, children with that level of literacy are going to find it almost impossible to participate in most lessons, yet there is no funding for such support unless there is a statement. I'm not surprised those children play up at times either.

And if I am frustrated as a teacher at what I can do for the children I teach, I can only imagine what it must be like for parents.

Yes aware that there are some teachers out there who try and have there hands tied by the head ,LEA etc my point is that when people come on here and say how do we tell if a child is genuine or just naughty then it isnt there job to judge its to teach.The lack of resources and wether there should be more special schools for our sen kids is a whole other thread.