childrens behaviour - is there such a thing as just a naughty child - why does everything have to be given a medical name?

[beatty]

In society in the UK these days I think that some unacceptable behaviours in children are too quickly given a medical name. Why can't people just say that some children are naughty and need to be taught discipline rather than giving the a disorder or medical name to hide behind which then makes the behaviour more acceptable. "oh well yes the reason he behaved like that is because he suffers with X". "oh well that ok then bring on some treatment". this costs the NHS thousands where just a bit of discipline and time spent with children would do wonders. Other countries in Europe have so many fewer "behavioural problems" than here. Why is that?
I have just seen a programme this morning where children who don't know right from wrong after the age of about 3 years old has now been given a medical name...utter tosh...just parents/guardians that are probably just too lazy to bother or even badly behaved themselves (yes discipline does beginat home).

I do understand about many behavioural problems as I am a teacher and see the genuine ones every day but everything is now being given a name. When will people understand that there are naughty children out there and that's just what they are - is not medical problem!!

But this isn't a thread about caring for a SN child, it's about how some children are misdiagnosed.

Yes Jimjams she did aked me that it was you who mentioned anger. As much as it would suit you I am not clueless, I read the post as it was intended!!

kittywits I think you've totally misunderstood what I said. Never mind.

cat earlier I said of course there could be misdx, but the opening post is suggesting that misdx is a common problem, which I know is not true at all. A far greater problem is underdx.

Message withdrawn

I witnessed the 'experts' amongst the great British public in Sainsbury's last week.
A woman shopping with a boy who I saw immediately had SN. About 10, very excitable, but very clingy and affectionate to his Mum. Insistently helping her put things in the trolley, she tacfully trying to manage him...then she was preoccupied and he was off, very fast. As soon as he couldn't see her he became very very agitated and anxious, calling 'Mummy mummy' while rushing hither and thither. You get the picture.
Re-united, he started to kick up a bit. A man made a BIG POINT of giving the mother a long denigrating stare and said to me 'he wouldn't behave like that if he was mine'
I said, quietly and calmly 'I think he has special nees'
'special needs?' he guffaws, loudly 'he'll want a special slap then!'.

No need for experts, leave it to the public!

I think that maybe we all become so heated because as well as having to fight to get a dx - my eldest was first of all diagnosed with an Odeipus Complex - you then spend the rest of their school lives trying to quantify it. I think at the end of the day it comes down to seeing is believing and you can't see a developmental disorder so there for how can it exist? This may be a very narrow view but I wish I had 10 p for everytime I have heard it said in a staff room that the behavioural problems are down to the parents.

It's really sad but true because my 19 year old now has an eye disorder KC as well as his AS and he may well need a double cornea transplant in the very near future. You can now see that he has a problem with his sight and people assume that when he is walking around bumping into them it's because he can not see too well, when in fact that is down to his autism. Before that he was just considered rude.

Living with a neurological disorder is the same as living life on a mine field - you never know where the next explosion is going to come from. What we don't need is to be told that the explosions are down to bad parenting and behaviour. When the teaching profession have all qualified as diagnosticians then they can qualify their opinions.

Oracle

having worked as a teacher and as a parent of a child with sn - I think your statement shows a degree of ignorance. ( I worked in an area where there were children who had terrible home situations and possibly could have used some boundaries as well as some consistency and organisation in their lives.) Sadly however I worked with colleagues like you and it used to make my blood boil to hear the way they spoke about students. A 'good' teacher ( and I hate that phrase) knows the difference - even if they can't put their finger on it.

Resources are not given out willy nilly. We were unable to get speech therapy for our daughter - for two years - we finally were able to access speech therapy when we moved to Australia. As to other resources - what was 'therapy' was pitiful - infrequent and poorly provided. SHe has down syndrome - clearly needing physio, ot and speech therapy. Clearly thousands were not spent on dd1!!!

I met parents who had been fighting for 7 years to get a statement for their child. Despite having a diagnosis. Other parents had to fight for years to get a diagnosis.

Perhaps other countries provide a better standard of care and resources for children with special needs than the UK does. I know what we are able to access here in Australia clearly outstrips what we would ever have been able to access in the UK. All provided by the government.

Real conditions are real.

children with real conditions often have severe behavioural probelms which are a direct result of their condition.

However most children can be 'naughty'.

A for example from Thursday. I teach a child with dyslexia. We had a task to do, well within his capacity, in line with his IEP. He just didn't want to do it. Not because he had dyslexia, just because he was a kid. Do I think him 'wicked' for this, no, he just didn't want to do it.

Being a teacher means you have to tread a very careful line.
Sometime you get it wrong, but you try your best.

Blu that's dreadful, what a vile man.

Reminds me of the 2 hours I spent on a ferry with ds1, who didn;t notice the waves (I did was feeling green and was 6 months pregnant). He was all over the place, trying to go in the gift shop throough the exit, trying to peer under toilet doors, - completely overstimulated by the crowded environment he was flyng around the place.

For 2 hours a man - a father no less- of 2 very well behaved girls- sat and watched ds1, followed him everywhere with an increasing sneer. Eventually ds1 kind of threw himself on the groound near this family group, I tried to pick him up- as well as I could manage at 6 months pregnant and the man made eye contact with me and shook his head slowly from side to side with a lip curled up. He was such an utterly stupid idiot, that despite watching ds1 for 2 hours he didn't manage to work out that he was severely autistic (ok I might not expect him to get the autism- but sverely something should have been obvious- ds1's behaviour was bizarre and of course included no speech).

Anyway he had his way, we haven't been on a ferry since (which means we can't visit the IL's) and we won't be going on one anytime soon.

i think that's right, MB- Sn kids can be badly behaved as much as any other; we all have off days don't we?

Somebody said (Cat64) about they have learned a lot through JimJams and my posts- thank you. I am glad, because having a child with SN is a constant learning experience for me too, it is an evolution on manny fronts. yet I AM one of the ones with a 'threatened diagnosis'- if the SALT etc don't get it togther at some point to actually see Samuel (he has had private assessments at BIBIC that the Paed works from) then there is a chance that the Dx could be lost. That scares the life out of me- it's ahrd enough getinng Samuel to eat / not attack / sleep with the feeling of being supported. I know the SENCO would like the dx removed. he might sit quietly confuse in class (and rip other kids shirts off their backs, but why would they mention that....) but right now he is jumping on all fours around my living room shouting catty and opiggy- any minute now he's going to go into barking mose, and that's because Dh had to go out when he normally wouldn't. I really wish she could live it for one weekend- who knows, maybe she will one day, she is yet to have a family. I pray that doesn't happen to her: of course I do. If it does though, I hope she gets a more sympathetic SENCO. because the attitude from a SENCO makes a hige difference in the life of someone with SN in the family. Non acceptamnce means I question every belief about Sam, because you can know and not belive simultaneously. Continuing suggestions that i see a parenting tutor- they damage my self esteem and my ability to handle Samuel. Indeed, the make me want to withdrw from support at all, wich canb't br beneficial.

Any idea that kids with Sn don't get taching / duscipline is nonsense: any idea that they automatically get help is in cloud cuckoo land. So what's the worse scenario? that a child who is 'naughty' gets a bit more attention, or that a family with Sn become alinenated and weary from the battle?

I realise this is just about me, but I do believe that case studies help illustrate reality. i'm an intelligent Mum with three gorgeous kids and I spend every day fightng. I ahve depression whic I cannot deal with as GP only wants me to see a |counsellor, but only on a Tuesday when I can't get childcare. We lost one house from the damage Samuel did in a meltdown. Yet we move forwards- i am doing a degree (would dearly love to be a senco, again childcare for Sam might scupper that) and the kdsa re all doing well at their own rate: DS3 is actuallys ayinga few words finally (!!! trying to get him to say i love you, not getting anywhere yet) at 3; ds2 chips along happily; Sam started violin last week. What we need to eliminate fro BIG impriovements is the constant griping of other people. COz guess what? I didn't choose this life. I expected (and thought I ahd) a bright, confident, well behaved set of three boys. I got two of those, and one who needs a bit more.

And if you go around assuming that you know better than paediatricians, maybe being in a school where you are supposed to help children with special needs isn't the right place for you?

I simply don't knw the answer to this: what qualifications / training do SENCOs get over and above other teachers?

I sat through a special commission into SN provisiopn in our LEA, and actually fought back tears listening to the experiences of some parents had had negotiating with SENCOs in mainstream schools - whereas others were clearly very ahhpy indeed with high quality SENCO. the whole quality of education and experience seemed to depend on the individual SENCO

It is utterly contemptible views like the ones expressed in numerous posts on this horrible thread - such as: "Some parents do not believe that their child could possibly just be in need of some good discipline (they say) lets look for a medical excuse for the behaviour. They then get referrals to specialists & other "professionals" who confirm the diagnosis as lets face it they need numbers to warrant them having a job in some cases and then the parenst can pass the responsibility to someone else sort them out."
That make it so hard to have a child with an invisible disability, hard even to confide in the people you think of as friends, and fills you with terror at the thought of your child getting older in this awful society filled with ignorant, judgemental and intolerant people. It also makes me realise why people on the SN board of Mumsnet no longer felt able to have their conversations in public and set up a private section. I feel totally depressed, frankly.

You know what Blu, despite asking the Uni careers service, an Access to teaching course leader- no-one can tell me what I need to do after teaching PGCE to be a Senco. I do know that in a highly religious school, our SENCO has a full yr2 class to manage, school responsibility ofr RE AND the SENCO job, with no extra hours. There's no way she could possibly make a decent fist of that job is there? Beyond humanity. Takes her three weeks to get me a telphone number, and there's no malice in that.

yes Sorell, and it reminds me why on a sunny saturday I'm stuck in not going out in case Samuel plays up and I get the looks and comments. I only wanted a stroll round the village (shops inconceivable without DH) but even the Post Office is impossible these days. You know, I love being a prisoner

I think one of the problems is that people say there was none of that in my day and rather than think the knowledge wasn't there but the conditions were people assume that the we are over diagnosing now. I bet you go back far enough and cancer was unheard off!

It's the same with allergies. No one had allergies back in the day....

My brother (who was a teacher) thought I was dyslexic but back then you would be waiting a long time for anyone to acknowledge it existed. They still don't.

HHMM, first day on here in ages and i am not going to waste it by battling ignorance....so staying away from this one.

Plus of course anyone with a severe disability was locked up, and people with Sam's level would probably be in a special home by now fro delinquents

My child is just plain naughty, although he is dyslexic, but I am not aware of why he is naughty apart from probably the copeing stategies he's built up over the years!

Someone from mn very kindly sent me a book 'The Explosive Child' now this sums my child up to a tea! yeh yeh it may be labelling him but it suits him better than 'naughty' I suppose there are lots of ways of expressing the naughty behaviour!

So how do you stop your child from going out without permission till its dark, left frantically worried! etc.... banning and grounding makes no difference, that is when the exposive child book comes into practice! I'm only half way through it and am learning techniques, but to be honest, I need the patience of a saint! aaaaaaggghhhhhhh!

i think the views and opinions expressed after the op have all been fair enough,it was the op that got my blood boiling as it reeminded me of one of ds1's teachers.i was in ameeting with his class teacher,the SENCO,his classroom assistant etc to discuss whether they thought he may have some sort of mild asd.
it was the taechers that brought this to my attention,id always assumed that any problems he had were down to my bad parenting and his early childhood experiences
but the teachers etc were all in agreement that he showed some of the signs of having an asd,but only very mild if so.then the other year 3 teacher butted in and basically accused me of reading too much on the internet and said'oh u could believe ur child had anything if u read enough about it'
then she said he was just an anxious child in her opinion.
i left the school in ters,thinking that i was right all along about ds1's problems(even though my other 3 children have no problems with behaviour whatsoever).
i will see what happens as he is going for an assessment next month(on the advice of the school).but if it means i can find out how to get through to him then surely thats a good thing?

It is a good thing diva an dI hope it goes well for you, have you spoken to the national autistic society? theyc n send you some excellent stuff, you don't need a diagnosis to get it.

I ahd similar 'it's so fashionable to ahve Sn' comments from this school, yet it was the last school that suggested the referral.

Message withdrawn