childrens behaviour - is there such a thing as just a naughty child - why does everything have to be given a medical name?

[beatty]

In society in the UK these days I think that some unacceptable behaviours in children are too quickly given a medical name. Why can't people just say that some children are naughty and need to be taught discipline rather than giving the a disorder or medical name to hide behind which then makes the behaviour more acceptable. "oh well yes the reason he behaved like that is because he suffers with X". "oh well that ok then bring on some treatment". this costs the NHS thousands where just a bit of discipline and time spent with children would do wonders. Other countries in Europe have so many fewer "behavioural problems" than here. Why is that?
I have just seen a programme this morning where children who don't know right from wrong after the age of about 3 years old has now been given a medical name...utter tosh...just parents/guardians that are probably just too lazy to bother or even badly behaved themselves (yes discipline does beginat home).

I do understand about many behavioural problems as I am a teacher and see the genuine ones every day but everything is now being given a name. When will people understand that there are naughty children out there and that's just what they are - is not medical problem!!

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I agree too, beatty. And I say this as a parent who has had to point out to a teacher that I saw my child's behaviour (lack of concentration in class) as a discipline problem on which the school was being far too weedy rather than a special need.

I agree too. Some parents do not believe that their child could possibly just be in need of some good discipline and their children would not possibly behave the way they do so therefore lets look for a medical excuse for the behaviour. They then get referrals to specialists & other "professionals" who confirm the diagnosis as lets face it they need numbers to warrant them having a job in some cases and then the parenst can pass the responsibility to someone else sort them out. When it doesn't work then the parents are still not to blame as the school, doctor, specialist etc should have done more!!!

I have often thought the same. Why do so many of the children who feature in documentaries/reality shows and have behavioural problems seem to come from similar types of dysfunctional households? A chemical imbalance or psychological disturbance may be responsible for many cases of behavioural problems, but I think the numbers attributed to these conditions far exceed the genuine sufferers. A hefty proportion are just badly brought up by lazy/neglectful or abusive parents who manage to absolve themselves from any responsibility by giving their bad behavious a medical name, thus passing the buck elsewhere.

behaviour, I meant, obviously

Oooh good topic.

There is no such thing as a naughty child. There are children who are sometimes naughty (though more often, tired, playful, forgetful, learning, energetic whilst we adults are just too tired or stressed to see that the child isn't being willfully disobedient) labelling a child as being naughty or good is just as damaging as being too quick to label it with a disability it doesn't have.

I agree that children need patience and disciplin, though all too often people's idea of disciplin is about putting children 'in their place' by exercising adult power rather than instilling in them with the self-disciplin that they need to serve them as adults.

All too often conditions are generalised ways of grouping children - who really need individual approaches like everyone. That doesn't mean that there aren't real physical and psychiatric disorders which require treatment. I think you have to be careful not to make children feel that their (genuine) condition isn't real, as this may make them question whether to take medication that they need or particular approaches which could help them.

Agree about 'child who is naughty sometimes' rather than 'naughty child'.

And agree that mis-identifying behaviour as pathological can be daft, unhelpful and sometimes downright dangerous. Ditto the other way around - if there is a real problem, waving it away as 'naughty' can be very damaging, and maybe its years of our society's tendency to do that that has led to a swing to the opposite extreme??

And most of all, think that lots of parents just don't know whats causing their child's behaviour, or what to do about it - not through wilful neglect or abuse or laziness, just through not having learnt about those aspects of parenting themselves. Don't think judging parents is any more helpful than judging children, really.

Doing far too much thinking today

Hmm reckon this has fair potential to kick off later, myself

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No I don't think there is such a thing as a naughty child. Just naughty behaviour (although as Spirited says, that also depends on your definition and to some extent, the response of the adults concerned to that behaviour - one adult's charming high-spiritedness is another one's bratlike out of controledness. Or even the same adult responding differently on different days depending on what mood they're in).

And tbh I don't think everything is given a medical name. Most parents of children with conditions which are controversial and which some people don't believe in, like ADHD, struggle to get it diagnosed and sometimes refuse to accept a diagnosis themselves.

Having said that, the risk of over-diagnosis is a real one, but I think it's unlikely that the pendulum has swung in that direction yet.

go Beatty!

Learning to "have sense" (or knowing right from wrong) requires the development of the frontal lobes of the brain. They are undeveloped at birth. Like all parts of the brain they will be less or more developed (and at different ages) in different children.

So a lack of sense (or your naughtiness beaty)will be caused by a medical condition - so it's not utter tosh to say it is.

Lots of NT children play up because their teacher is boring though - maybe that's what you are experiencing

Oh have I heard this before!!!!!!!

Just because you don't see a childs behaviour at school or whatever, you have no idea what goes on at home, and many commonish Sn's manifest mainly at home anyway (eg AS).

Gettinga diagnosis is like searching for golddust on the bloody mmon; it takes years and years an yeras of everyone going 'don't you think you could take parenting classes....' and the answer is, no, he has Sn, actually I have three kids, two are extrememly well behaved.

Maybe there are a few cases out thre byut they are not in the majority yet I get this so often.

BIBIC are having to runa campaign coz of the number of Sn kids who get ASBO's for things like staring or other stuf fhtey cannot help.

Walk a day in my shoes and I'll show the difference between naughty and SN, but don't go shouting generalisations or accusations becasue people think you know what you're talkinga bout coz ou're a teacher and then people like me to have to live the reality really get F$%ke d off.

And in six years of posting, that is the first time I have got really really angry.

wow, fab post Spirited!

well said peachy
beatty have you researched this so you have letters after your name to prove you know what you are talking about
what a load of narrow minded rubbish

where thisn so0rt of thing leads to

I have yet to come across a child who has beeen misdiagnosed.

People with this sort of attitude have no experience of conditions, and its for this reason that if ds1 (7) is kicking off in the street I very rarely say "he's autistic". Instead I say ""he can't talk" because people comprehend that as real.

These are cards I am having made up for ds1 to hand out to onlookers. Written for me by an adult autistic woman:

'Welcome to the experience of DS1. DS1 is largely meaning-deaf and meaning-blind in REAL TIME information processing. This means he has to physically touch and smell his world to make sense of it, similar to a deaf-blind child. This is part of his autism. Thanks for your interest and understanding and your important help in building a more autism-friendly community for people like DS1"

She's suggested another card to hand to gawpers

'eccentricity isn't contagious, what a shame'.

but I doubt I'm brave enough for that one.

I'm not sure who you think is giving everything a name- not professionals, you only have to check out the SN board to see how difficult it is for parents of chidlren with HFA/AS to get a diagnosis and how late their children are being diagnosed. Have you read anything about the conditions? Tony Attwood's books are goiod, Luke Jackson's Donna Williams. All will help you understand children with these conditions better (if they've got as far as diagnosis I think you can assu,e they are real). If you understandwhy they act the way they do then you have a much better chance of dealing effectively with challenging behaviours.

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In my opinion, schools cause a lot of children with special needs to be 'naughty' because of the utter ignorance of many teachers to their needs.

'of' their needs. Tsk.

Well yes Socci- it's like when ds1 was in mainstream and I was told he was "being difficult" by refusing to go into the orange room (a resource base). I was told this repeatedly for weeks- "being difficult", before finding out that the room had a broken flashing flourescent light. I mean FGS. Lets sort out the basics first. Provide some basic education on the sensory world of an autistic child. It's not rocket science. I suspect most of the people concerned woudl be difficult if someone tried to shove them in a room that was physcially painful for them

yes sorrell- that was certainly the case for DS1. He was out of control in mainstream really- the staff asked for restraint training (for a 5 year old). I had spies (his private SALT and one of his LSAs- mother of an autistic child) who told me some things that were going on. The SALT in particular said that the school's mismanagement was escalating behviours and I needed to do something before we ended up with a whole host of unecessary challenging behaviours.

We were lucky enough to swap to an SLD/PMLD school- where he has never been restrained (!) and he is described to me by the staff as "sweet" and "happy" and "lovely" and "smiley".

SN aside, I do feel quite sorry for teachers (and that includes at nursery and preschool level too) these days - there seems to be so little actions they can take to deal with 'naughtiness' in the classroom. Although on the other hand (I'll pick the splinters out of my arse in a moment ) there are equally some teachers who are just ill-equipped to deal with anything other than biddable little automatons.

Sorrell, your post "In my opinion, schools cause a lot of children with special needs to be 'naughty' because of the utter ignorance of many teachers to their needs" so perfectly captured my opinion that it is easier just to copy and paste it!!