Are your children’s vaccines up to date?

Set a reminder

Please or to access all these features

Behaviour/development

Talk to others about child development and behaviour stages here. You can find more information on our development calendar.

Come and be a better parent in the trenches! Thread 2

964 replies

BertieBotts · 31/08/2014 09:56

Terrible title sorry Grin Next time we'll start the discussion at 900 posts, OK?

Originally started by AnotherMonkey, we are trying to improve our parenting which may include less shouting (www.theorangerhino.com) and positive boundary setting (www.ahaparenting.com), or any other goal you want. If you want to be more authoritative that's a great cause too. No judging of parenting styles allowed, honest critique OK. There is occasionally homework Wink (but really, honest, we're nice and don't care if you want to skip past that bit)

Dumping of emotions/ranting after a bad day also acceptable. The saying "in the trenches" refers mainly to having 2+ under 5 but really any stage which is repetitive, challenging, soul destroying about parenting.

Books recommended so far:
How To Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk
When Your Kids Push Your Buttons
The Happiness Project
Calmer Easier Happier Parenting
The Explosive Child
The Highly Sensitive Child

Please post a little intro/reminder just with your DCs ages/stages and any extra challenges - a couple of us have relocated abroad, that kind of thing.

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
AnotherMonkey · 07/09/2014 21:15

On phone again and managed to miss whole section of your posts, Bertie - zoo obviously not lovely at all :)

It does sound really frustrating. I'm trying to think what's been working for DS because he has been a bit better. He also gets completely manic at times and anything can set it off - too much energy/tiredness, anger/excitement, social worry/ social success. And his boy sense of humour is just daft half the time!

AnotherMonkey · 07/09/2014 21:23

Bertie, reading your posts has helped my perspective, as I spend so much time thinking how different it would be if he didn't have a sibling. I guess that madness just has to come out somewhere. For us, it's when he's with DD and she copies and then you've got it in stereo...

BertieBotts · 07/09/2014 21:25

Haha :) It was a nice idea and parts of it were nice even if it was just the chance to bond with DH in shared exasperation. It was funny as well because DH is stopping smoking and he accidentally put the really low nicotine cartridge in his e-cig so he was really stressed but had nothing to relieve the stress with Grin

I find the boy sense of humour wearing too but he seems to get his fill of that at kindergarten with his best friend, so we are mostly safe. Or I've just become immune, anyway. It's almost like he has a 5 year old version of tourettes sometimes, he'll just interject "bum bum willy fart" into the room when he feels that things have been silent for too long.

OP posts:
ClairesTravellingCircus · 07/09/2014 21:29

Quick post from me to say hi!

I've only just found the new thread, thought I'd lost you all.

To recap: I have 4 dcs: 13,9.10 and dts who are 2.6.

We have just moved, so I've not been on mn much, because of feeble internet connection and mountains of boxes that need unpacking!

My issues are teenage dd1, a very volatile dd2 (full puberty) and the toddlers twins with typical toddler behaviour x2 Grin

Will try and read back all the posts in the next few days.

rhetorician · 07/09/2014 21:44

hello - followed some of first thread, but didn't post. Have DD1 (5.8) and DD2 (2.9). DD1 in particular is quite challenging - lots of ignoring us, not listening, lashing out (perfectly fine at school though) - responds much better if we take a positive approach and DON"T SHOUT, but DP and I are curmudgeonly sods not chirpy, chivvying types who perpetually turn all chores into joy, laughter and fun. I am not only fighting DD1 here, I am fighting my essential nature. DD2 is fairly easy, but a cheeky monkey who keeps 'forgetting' to go to the sodding toilet

AnotherMonkey · 07/09/2014 22:08

rhetorician thanks for posting. I know just what you mean about not only fighting DC but also your essential nature. In my case though, it's my deep-seated need for quiet and privacy. I don't need my whole life to be like this, but I'd like a little bit of each. The times when I need them most (when I'm feeling tired and a bit vulnerable) are generally when I get them least, and it's hard.

claires hello Grin how was the move?

bertie are you still as tired as you were?

rhetorician · 07/09/2014 22:16

anothermonkey yes - I think both DP and I also need space and peace and that is in short supply - and by nature we are very live and let live. And have learned to just let some things go (messy eating, e.g.) but the difficulty comes with the things that you just have to confront. Especially with DD1 who just can't handle confrontation - lashes out, distracts, diverts, runs away. Almost impossible to discipline except through threat/reward. Very impulsive - we have just started seeing a parent mentor to help identify better strategies, although I think we have thought long and hard about it already, so not convinced it will help. But we will keep trying Smile

BertieBotts · 07/09/2014 22:21

No, I'm not so tired. But I do need to go to bed to maintain that level of not tiredness!

I so so hear the fighting your essential nature. I always thought I was sociable, fun, patient etc but I don't think I am Hmm Blush

I posted this a little while ago but I really identify with this article:
www.renegademothering.com/2014/06/25/letter-to-arlo/

Especially this line:

"... at least knowing how, more or less, to do so, without my personality flaws getting in the way. Your personality doesn’t clash with mine. Your whining doesn’t drive me around the bend. You don’t irritate me. I don’t irritate you."

Newborns are sort of like pets, you don't have to try and mesh your personality with theirs, they just accept you perfectly as who you are, and their own personality doesn't really exist or matter yet.

I did read something though once which was "You are the very best parent for your unique child". Something about how we shouldn't be trying to change our personalities to fit what we think is some kind of "perfect parent personality" because that doesn't work and anyway it's not helpful to our children, that there's a valid way to be in who we naturally are. Gah well I'm rambling again, hopefully this makes sense on some level?

Claires! I'm sorry I think I said someone would PM but then got all stuck in my own navel at the end of the last thread Blush Does somebody want to check back and see we're not missing anyone else and send a PM if so?

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 07/09/2014 22:24

Rhetorician have you read How To Talk? Some good ideas in there about alternatives to punishment which might suit you if you're live and let live. That's me as well, and I think it's part of where my frustration comes from. Like, hey, kid, I'm respecting your right to be who you are, can you please respect MY boundaries and MY property in return? Kind of expecting him to already know stuff that I didn't really realise needs to be taught.

OP posts:
rhetorician · 07/09/2014 22:33

We have How to Talk, but I last read it a couple of years ago where I felt that the strategies were aimed at an older child, but I think I should revisit it...

BertieBotts · 07/09/2014 22:40

My DS is 5.11 and I'm really finding it very relevant now whereas not so much when he was younger.

OP posts:
rhetorician · 07/09/2014 22:47

Am tucked up in bed with it...

ClairesTravellingCircus · 07/09/2014 22:58

No worries Bertie!
Ad I've found you again! Grin

Move was as good as moves can be! Still feels like temporary accomodation as haven't found THE place for everything yet, but we'll ge there. This is our 5th move with dcs in tow, we should be experts bh now Confused
Fighting uour own nature, yesyesyes. I really struggle to try and find fun ways to motivate the kids to tidy up, hurry up etc. It's really not me and I think they can smell the rat!

Dd1 has started to tickle dts whenever he hits, and sometimes it works as a 'punishment' of sorts, but not always.

Right, early start and school+nursery run for me tomorrow as dh has to be at work early, so need to go to sleep!

(So glad I've found you again!!)

DishesToDoWineFirst · 08/09/2014 09:39

letsgo yes to LONSMA! The weather page is mine...

Another perspective about getting offline and offscreen is that having no screen can contribute to feeling alone and disconnected. When DS was tiny for the first year, I didn't have easy access to internet for a range of reasons. I had a lot of social contact but the inevitable hours and hours when I was the only adult with a screaming small person were HARD.

I didn't realise I felt isolated because I went out every day and met up with people. But my reality was that ideally I should have had grown up company much more of the time for the first few months. Ready access to internet would have made a big difference. And once we had it, it was two years before we had wireless - that made internet so much easier. I didn't have unlimited cell phone text either then.

And our TV was enormous, had to be wheeled in on a heavy trolly, and the picture was always snowy and wouldn't receive channels or play DVDs well. Makes me laugh when I think of it, was a real performance to watch anything! No laptop or iPad like now. More media at that time would have really helped. I was chained to the radio as contact with the outside world. I remember there was one very cheerful announcer who drove me crazy even though I liked him - he was so bloody happy, the b__d. Shows what state I was in!

So I see our media connection as a real blessing as well as an addiction that rots our brains and makes us sad Smile I won't ever give it up entirely unless I have to. But the addictive side, especially social media... steady as she goes!

bertie I think you are fantastic for helping your friend out like that, sounds like it wasn't easy. And you knew it wouldn't be! But you still did it. More recently your zoo visit... not easy either. What's the bet your DS will remember it as a lovely day out rather than how you experienced it. Your thoughts about your DS taking out all the energy he might have expended on a sibling onto you instead makes a lot of sense. I think we will wear that too with our singleton DS. This last week I have seriously thought about DC2 but there are so many reasons it won't happen. One is DS's age - by the time another child came along (if they did) the age gap would be huge.

I experienced major age gaps with my own siblings and it does make a difference early on. It took many many years before we became close and I'm sure there is no guarantee of that. But it does niggle at me, the singleton thing.

A friend of mine once said to me, with some kids it is like the work they require is more like having two kids. Or more. With others it is easy peasy. She has several, all very different personalities. One is super super easy and one is very hard work. I think she was kindly saying that I had my hands more than full with our DS Hmm

another you are going great guns! Your self care plan sounds so good, it is inspiring. And that things are going a bit better, all that is music to my ears. I want there to be people in the same boat as us AND for it to improve for us all!

Our DS has been mostly great company this last week especially. It is like glimpsing what things could be like, what I HOPE we will have more of. It is more of what I thought having kids would be like, actually being able to have a relationship instead of managing a continually grumpy, screaming, tantrummy, flailing, unhappy being.

dreaming good luck for holiday, it sounds like getting there has been a slog. Fingers crossed once you are on the road and then settled in things will go much more smoothly.

claires you are amazing to handle shifting with as much ease as you do. I find it incredibly stressful and that is with only the one DC.

The discussion about personal nature and fighting it, or not, with parenting gives me so many thoughts. It is true for me and not true. I think the sheer stress and exhaustion of the first years made it hard to even be in touch with my true self. I've often been told how gentle and patient I am, and that is true. But as a parent I have seen myself be the exact opposite of that. And that is also a true part of me, the shouty frustrated angry part. It depends what parts of my personality get squeezed out by the weight of pressure, of stress, of relentless slog and seemingly endless tantrums and continually interrupted sleep.

Now that we see more light in the tunnel (in the trench!) I feel much more like myself than I have for a long time. I think our true nature stretches immensely under extended, intensive strain like a big rubber band. It gets taut and thin and in danger of snapping. The less tension, the more relaxed it gets, back into a comfortable shape. That is how I feel lately anyway. And it is such a relief.

Sorry, a huge bunch of waffle there I am a bit wiped out at the moment, for all my talk of light in tunnels and rubber bands relaxing Grin

mandbaby · 08/09/2014 10:40

Morning everyone.

Another - well done on those targets. Those are really great. I'm going to take inspiration from 1 and 2. Slowing down and really taking things in is something I'm very bad at.

Dishes - such a great and inspiring post. I really liked the rubber band analogy. Just reminds me that we're all only human and doing our best at what is the hardest job in the world.

Bertie and Dreaming - your posts could've been written by me! The guilt I feel from over-reacting to the "drip, drip" button pushing is an almost daily occurrence for me. My nearly 5yo does all the things you described, Bertie. The licking, whining over the small things, etc, etc. I also find it impossible very hard to change my reactions to it. And Dreaming - the battle between forcing yourself to do things to "build memories" (like Another said) rather than taking the easy option to do nothing. Feel proud of yourself for actually going through with the holiday even though you know what a pain in the ass it's probably going to be. And the bit you put about your lie-in being interrupted because you can hear chaos breaking out whilst your DH deals with his own agenda. OMG! That is my DH EVERY Sunday morning (when it's my lie-in). I hate it and rarely relax. I have to wear earplugs to stand any chance of being able to turn-off to it all. I can hear him losing his patience with the boys over something I know I would be cool with, and it's SO frustrating.

We had a mixed day yesterday. The first sunny weekend day in 6 weeks, so we decided to go to the beach (which is about a 90 minute drive away). Before we'd even left the house, DH was getting irate. (Trying to get everyone ready and pack a car for an impromptu seaside visit can do this to the most patient of people, nevermind a stress-head like my DH!) Unbeknownst to me, he'd strapped DS2 into the car (thinking he was being helpful). When I asked where DS2 was and he proudly said he was in the car, I replied that he'd have to get him out again as he'd not visited the loo. (Who doesn't send a 3YO to the toilet before a long car journey?!) DH went into super-stressed mood, no doubt getting DS2 out of the car in a rougher manner than he deserved. Which then, of course, but DS2 in a bad mood for the duration of the journey (until after about an hour he, thankfully, fell asleep).

When we finally arrived (without a satnav and making several wrong turns), you can imagine how fraught DH and I both were. (I'm very surprised he hadn't turned the car around and headed back). Thankfully, the boys' moods were very good and they were very excited. But even that can make life hard, can't it. For example, trying to park the car, get everything out, make sure everyone's safe and not trying to run off into the busy road, making sure we have everything, etc, etc.

We took them crab fishing (but could only find dead ones) and the boys were flinging dirty, wet sand all over each other. Whilst they were having a great old time, and I should really try and remember that, at the time it just makes me ratty and irritable because the perfectionist, control freak in me wants everyone to stay clean and not smelling like a swamp. Needless to say, this didn't happen, but obviously we took along a change of clothes so no harm done. Apart from my own irritability at what wasn't a big deal.

Whilst being irritable, I was pretty good and only shouted once but then realised and tried to bring my volume down. DS1 is the creative one who loves to build. DS2 is destructive. DS1 had spent ages building something out of sand and lovingly placing seashells in it to decorate it. DS2 comes along and needlessly starts stamping on it. DS1 then bursts into angry tears and pushes DS2 who I managed to catch just in time before he smashed his face on a huge granite rock. If I hadn't have been sat on said rock, there's no doubt that DS2 would have bust his lip or nose. It drives me insane that DS1 overreacts hmm, I wonder where he gets that from and that DS2 thinks it's funny to just bulldoze everything he makes.

We called in at a beautiful pub for tea on the way home. The kind of place that I could spend all day in if it was just me and DH. But again, I'm so on edge and worrying that our loud and excited (and probably over-tired boys) are spoiling everyone else's enjoyment, that if we hadn't have all been starving hungry I might well have insisted that we leave. They managed to stay in their chairs, but they talk so loud and wind each other up, it can be so embarrassing. And DS2 has started saying "shut up" and "sod off" again - after weeks of not doing it - every time he is told something he doesn't want to hear. VERY embarrassing and another massive button pusher for me.

Like someone above said, I just hope that they remember these days out with fondness (building sandcastles, crab fishing, etc) rather than the irritable moods their parents were in :(

BertieBotts · 08/09/2014 19:40

My daily target - Today I enjoyed sitting on a wall with DS on the way home, sharing the leftovers from his lunch box.

OP posts:
AnotherMonkey · 09/09/2014 20:42

Thanks everyone for your encouragement Thanks

bertie looking for the positive is such a valuable exercise. It's a great target.

mandbaby I bet the boys had a great time. I recognise so much in your post!

dishes I love your post. And I have to agree - the mindless, time consuming checking I do needs to stop, but there's no way I'd give it up altogether. The advice and support and general access to information is so valuable.

claires I don't really think that anybody comfortably fits into that character description, unless they're a milkshake presenter or just plain irritating Grin
Glad you're back!

Letsgoforawalk · 09/09/2014 22:22

Welcome rhetorician . welcome back claires glad the move is done and you are all settling in. And that you found the thread again Smile

dreaming i hope you have had some good minutes amongst the sleep deprived difficult ones. You are so strong to do as well as you do with so little good rest. If you have had 5 nights of sleep throughs, there can be and therefore will be many many more in the future. Can you get the sleep consultant back for some back up?

dishes you took rhetoricians point about personalities and ran with it! It is very true, I looked at my DH and my youngest while we were on holiday and realised just how similar they were. It suddenly made a whole lot of sense how they wound each other up because they have the same.........traits...... I have relaxed a bit, because I can't change him. They will blow up. It will at times be noisy, angry, unreasonable, shouty. I can be there and try and stay reasonable, but I can't "fix it" so will try and chill about it.

bertie my DD1 and DD2 are very similar and will chat for ages on the phone, like the same things, have similar issues and ways to drive me mad and are probably closer in some ways than the younger two. They are 11 years apart, the younger two are 16 months apart. DD1 also has a different father to the younger two, so they are 'half' sisters, but really close.
Oh and well done for not leaving your DS at the zoo, he wrote the book on annoying behaviour that day. Tough tough work for you. I'm afraid I have no words of wisdom. The book I mentioned a couple of pages ago (by Cassandra Jardine) might have some ideas, but I think it is probably still important that you address the issues you were talking about a week or so ago when you were so tired and down (are you getting better sleep now?)

monkey Wine here's to you! glad things are going well you inspirational thread starter!

mandbaby love the account of your seaside trip! I'm sure no one in the pub minded your lovely boys! There is such a gap between TV advert day on the beach (laughing mum and dad, children intrigued by their alive rock pool finds, M&S picnic food on a gingham cloth, walking off hand in hand as the sun goes down, skin aglow and trailing a spade as they head for home...) and reality (flung sand, smashed sandcastle, gritty sandwiches, sunburn or mild hypothermia more likely in the uk and squabbling) I know which one of those I identify with. And it's not the first. But I know there are always good moments!

I'm off now to watch the tour of Britain highlights, I like the cycling and am going to watch it in person tomorrow Smile
I've not timed myself tonight, haven't got near the iPad for days and DH has to keep on top of his goblin battles or whatever so I thought I'd just make the most of having it for a few mins

Good thing...um...we all worked quite well together at the weekend getting things sorted around the house. Bootful of my little pony and barbies for the charity shop now. Grin

Letsgoforawalk · 10/09/2014 19:42

The link that is in my post is entirely not intentional. I just typed eye pad ... But using a little i, and when I checked in tonight it had become a link. The magic of the internet....
dishes just realised your post has it too. Anyway I was just going to say, missed off last nights marathon post, that you have an interesting alternative perspective to the social media, internet browsing aspect. I think it is a v. Poor substitute for RL company but you are right it is a way of staying connected with the world. Or someone's representation of the world.
The Bike Bike Bike racing was fab Grin.

rhetorician · 10/09/2014 20:11

hello all, hope you are holding up. Do any of you have any advice about handling the following (am doing quite well on not shouting):

  1. DD1 (5.8) has an infuriating habit of resisting any attempt to discipline her - by this I mean that when everyone is calm she refuses point blank to discuss her behaviour or to attempt to alter it. She changes the subject, puts her fingers in her ears etc. For a while, I could talk to her about her behaviour if she was calm, but increasingly it's as if she does not accept that there are any limits to what she can or can't do. It's no longer distress driving her behaviour. I don't know how to talk to her - she just doesn't seem able to accept that rules apply to her as well.
  2. Serious not listening - I mean, telling her that she can't do something, and then she is practically doing it as you are telling her. She will repeat whatever rule it is back to you no problem, but it's like its an instruction manual that applies to something else entirely.

Now day to day we more or less manage, but I am worried about her lack of boundaries, particularly it's impact on her relationships to other children. Am at a loss as to what fuels the behaviour or how to tackle it. So today, she was cross because I turned off the tv (with due warning etc) and came and bit me - not in anger as such, and not very hard. But she is big into "that's what you get if you x, y, x" which I guess is her replaying the methods we have attempted to use on her - it's a means of taking back control, I guess. It's all about control, which means it's based in anxiety, but I don't know what's causing the anxiety.

BertieBotts · 10/09/2014 21:07

Can you give an example of the kind of conversation you're having about behaviour when she's calm? Sometimes it's the wording almost more than the content which can be an issue.

Also sometimes it can help to try and tackle an issue in a less direct way. By that I mean not punishing, rewarding, stating expectations or talking about it at all but providing opportunities for the opposite and helping her to behave in the right way without it being about the negative behaviour. Someone posted a link on the last thread which was a PDF file about "when children can do better, they do better. When they aren't behaving well it's because they can't". Anyone?

The not listening - argh, it's maddening isn't it? I am totally not a "when I say jump you jump" parent but it's so irritating to just be flat out ignored. You're re-reading HTT aren't you at the moment? Have you tried the ways to ask in there in the "engaging cooperation" section?

DS went through a "that's what you get" phase as well and even threatening it "If you do that you'll get a punch!" I hated it because I felt like I'd worked/tried so hard to avoid that myself and it wasn't even me he'd heard it from, it was somewhere else. But I just kept repeating "No, nobody is getting punched, we don't punch people in our house" and eventually it seems to have lost its power and he's stopped using it. He's back onto "I hate you and you're the worst mummy in the world" when he's mad but I can tune that out, it doesn't bother me because I know it's just his anger coming out.

Me personally, I feel much better right now. I'm stuck into a new self help book - I love a good self help book - this one is about tidying and so far it's really inspiring me. I won't get the health insurance sorted for a month or two so other stuff will have to wait, but I'm sleeping better, have been getting out, and I feel better too. I've also been talking about How To Talk so much with my local mum group that I'm thinking of suggesting meeting up to try and make a workshop out of it. So that's exciting me too at the moment.

My two positive things.
Yesterday: I told DS about the tidying book and he was really enthusiastic about it too so we did the first step together (visualising your destination).
Today: We kicked conkers home from kindergarten like little unpredictable footballs.

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 10/09/2014 21:08

Letsgo, not seeing a link in your post... if you're on a computer it might be worth a virus scan because that kind of thing can be ad software.

OP posts:
rhetorician · 10/09/2014 21:23

bertiebotts ours also involves that line about punching too. Wonder where it's from. Convo goes like this. Bedtime, stories told, nice and relaxed.

Me: DD, it would be great if you could try really hard not to hurt anyone tomorrow, I know you can do it.
DD: [turns head away]
Me: do you think you could try that
DD: [nods, not very vigorously]
Me: OK, I will help you
DD: Will you stop talking now please?

She is just telling me what I want to hear so that I will shut up.

BertieBotts · 10/09/2014 21:55

Ah - you see she's probably hearing "Mum's telling me what to do again." and that might lead to feelings like "I'm a bad person when I hurt people" "I can't help it, when I get so angry it just happens" "I'm scared of feeling angry"

You could try - and perhaps not at bedtime, if it's become a pattern that she feels like you're giving her behaviour advice just before she's sleeping - but I think if she's so resistant to talking about it you've got to try and deconstruct the feeling behind it. So you could start talking about feelings. Let's talk about one thing that made us happy today. And one thing that made us sad. Something that made us angry. Something that was funny. That kind of thing. We do it at dinnertime but you might find it better one to one. Opening up a dialogue about how we have feelings that feel good like happiness and excitement and amusement, and feelings that can feel horrible like sadness and worry and fear and anger. And at first you just talk about things that made you feel like that.

Then after she's used to that game and she feels comfortable with that, maybe a few days later you can start talking about how it feels to have those feelings. Like happiness can feel all buzzy and yellow and bright and it's kind of in your chest where your heart is, but anger can feel like somebody twisting a hand really tightly right in your stomach, or it can feel like a straining can about to explode. Don't give her too many descriptions like this - maybe give her one or two starting points about how you personally experience a feeling (but not anger) and let her lead on her other feelings. If she's struggling to articulate then help, but don't put words in her mouth because she'll probably copy what you have said and feel like that's what she's "supposed to" say. If she wants to you could put some drawings in a book (DD's feelings book) or talk about the colour of different feelings or the sound or write some words about what each feeling is like. (Children are great at this kind of abstract stuff.) Good and bad feelings, because you don't want it to be all about negative, but really this is about having her negative feelings accepted and in the open and not being scary any more. If you want to make a book she could write in the book when she has a bad feeling and she wants to let it out.

Hopefully over time she will be able to tell you naturally things like "When I feel angry it makes me want to punch people" and then you can open that out into a dialogue about other things she can do when she feels like punching. But if it's been a few weeks and she hasn't volunteered this information then you could gently ask things like "Did you feel like this (point to page in book or drawing) when you hit X today?" or if you know what triggered the hitting you could ask about that directly. Or you can ask the other way around. "What did it feel like when X took your bag?"

Basically you want to get her talking about her feelings, and then you can reassure her that her feelings are accepted even if not all actions are acceptable. Once she feels comfortable talking about the way she feels she should be more open to a dialogue about how to handle her feelings and control her actions. I've now started talking to DS about how when you scream and hurt somebody it makes them want to help you out even less, and we talk about better ways to tell somebody what you're angry about.

Sorry that was soooo long Blush

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 10/09/2014 22:06

Random links thing, Letsgo.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2181502-Link-provided-by-SkimWords

OP posts: