Come and be a better parent in the trenches! Thread 2

[BertieBotts]

Terrible title sorry Next time we'll start the discussion at 900 posts, OK?

Originally started by AnotherMonkey, we are trying to improve our parenting which may include less shouting (www.theorangerhino.com) and positive boundary setting (www.ahaparenting.com), or any other goal you want. If you want to be more authoritative that's a great cause too. No judging of parenting styles allowed, honest critique OK. There is occasionally homework (but really, honest, we're nice and don't care if you want to skip past that bit)

Dumping of emotions/ranting after a bad day also acceptable. The saying "in the trenches" refers mainly to having 2+ under 5 but really any stage which is repetitive, challenging, soul destroying about parenting.

Books recommended so far:
How To Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk
When Your Kids Push Your Buttons
The Happiness Project
Calmer Easier Happier Parenting
The Explosive Child
The Highly Sensitive Child

Please post a little intro/reminder just with your DCs ages/stages and any extra challenges - a couple of us have relocated abroad, that kind of thing.

Others just rise to the challenge of being bad once they have that as part of their image of themselves

This is a good fit for DS. He even sees this part of himself as a separate persona.

I have that negative thing going on big time. That's how I was parented, but I was the child who tried to get it right the next time...best keep on with that, then

I'm on the computer tonight and reading back through the last page my posts seem so random, I can't keep up on the phone.

Rhetorician it's not too late. I was thinking about this the other night. I honestly believe that it's never too late. A lot of what you've written about your DD has echoed my own thoughts (and posts!) about DS. I've been certain that we have issues outside the scope of normal behaviour and I have also cried many tears at a complete loss. And have been almost paralysed by fear and guilt and grief that I've broken my boy. Out of the blue, right now we're having a great phase. He is emotionally responsive and showing real signs of responsibility and compassion, amidst all the songs about bottoms on your face (don't ask) and insults and general 5 year old madness. DD is giving me far more trouble than DS at the moment. The fact that it's not so relentlessly difficult means that I've got some of my energy and sense of humour back.

I'm under no illusion though that this is anything more than another phase, and soon we'll have new challenges. But I do feel reassured that things might be OK in the end (and if it's not OK it's not the end :) love that quote, Bertie ). Which is a huge step forwards.

Moresnow that's one of those lightbulb moments when you just think why?! But the fact that we're reflecting on this stuff and determined to stop is fantastic. I also think that's a pretty standard, British response to compliments!!

It's not about whether you're being positive or negative in what you're saying, it's more about what the child actually hears from the message vs what you're saying. It can seem clear to us but to them they can hear a very different message.

Please - don't feel bad about any of this. It doesn't come easily because it's not the way that people spoke to children in the past, or even thought about children in the past. I am lucky in that this particular part comes easily to me because my mum was emotionally open (perhaps a bit too much so, but hey, that's a totally different thread!) and I am interested in the psychology of language (I'm a language teacher, actually, so I'm used to exploring nuance in meaning as well). Other things really don't come easily to me at all - we all have our own challenges and that's nothing to beat yourself up over.

I read something the other day but I've totally lost it now. It was talking about how in the past we didn't talk about emotions, this generation of parents is opening up that dialogue with our children and for them, it will be their native language. So that in the future they will feel comfortable with their emotions and they will pass that down and future generations will take it for granted, and it will be a good thing but for us it's like learning to speak a foreign language and it is hard. We don't always get it right and that's okay.

If you have the new edition (post 1999, so not that new) of How To Talk they included an extra part in the back where parents had written in about things they liked, things they didn't like and clarification (actually thinking about it this might have been where the "native language" thing came from.) One example was a letter saying "I validate my children's feelings but it doesn't work" and after further exploring they found that in every case the parent was saying "You feel really XXXXX. But, ." It was just the addition of that little "but" that undermined the whole saying. They suggested changing the "but" for "The problem is..." or just leaving the second half off completely.

This is really hard. Seriously. It's so unintuitive (even for me who says I am used to this kind of talk) to literally JUST accept our children's feelings. We worry that by accepting their feelings we're also accepting their actions, we worry that they are going to think we're horrible because if we understand, why don't we just make it better? We worry that they're not going to understand what is wrong.

OK, so what is wrong with saying

"It would be really great if you try not to XXX, I know you can do it." ?

Firstly it's focusing on the bad behaviour. It's the old "Don't think about an elephant." It's less helpful to be told what not to do, than to be given guidance on what to do. You know yourself how unhelpful it is when somebody stands there saying "Don't shout, don't smack, don't time out, don't remove privileges." You're sitting there thinking well what SHOULD I do, I don't want to do these things in the first place. I'm only doing them because I have to and you're not giving me an alternative!

Instead:

• Focus on alternative solutions to the problem. "Remember if X happens, what can you do?"
• Focus on a positive that you remember or a part of the day you enjoyed or something you were proud of. "I really liked the way that you.... today"
• Suggest ways to make amends.
• Help your child to see themselves in the opposite way. "Remember the time that you... that's something really..."
• In the moment, explain the behaviour you do want to see. Don't use the words "Don't" "No" or "Stop". Try to think about what the opposite is. E.g. No hitting = gentle hands/use your words, Stop running = slow down/be careful. Don't spill that = watch the milk/two hands please.

Secondly "It would be really great if..." sounds almost fantastical, like an impossible wish. It's a bit like "I'll try". The person who says "I'll try to ...." really means "I don't think I can". "It would be really great if you..." says "I don't think you really will". It's in direct competition with "I know you can" so it's likely that the child will disregard the "I know you can", partly because they're thinking "But I couldn't yesterday, and I couldn't the day before that. You think that but I know differently." or just "You're wrong" or even "You always say that" but partly because they've just heard the message that says the total opposite. It's also quite a pressure to put on a child, saying "I know you can do it". It's putting the focus onto you, you want them to do it, not about what they want.

So instead:

• Trust that they know. Acknowledge that they are (probably) trying their hardest not to do whatever it is. Most bad behaviour doesn't feel good. Imagine how you feel when you lose control and shout, scream or hit. It's not a nice feeling, and children feel like that just the same. You can also reassure them that everybody loses control once in a while and that it gets easier as they get older.
• Reassure them that tomorrow is a new day and they get a chance to start over.
• Tell or read a story about a child who had the same problem (bad behaviour is children attempting to solve a problem in an immature way) and was able to overcome it or solve it in a positive/kind/co-operative way.
• Talk (without referring to the specific incident but generally) about different approaches to a problem and how some can help the problem and some can make the problem worse. They might not realise that a different reaction might actually get them what they want better than misbehaving.
• Reassure them that you love them (which I'm sure you do anyway!) Remember that saying about expressing love most when we feel they deserve it the least.

I would do one or two of these things at a time. Don't bombard them with all of them at once. For repeated behaviours it's an ongoing dialogue, a work in progress. Similarly if there's a particular time of day when you usually talk about things and they're becoming resistant, stop using that time for direct behaviour talks for a while, just stick to reassurance, reinforcing the positive, not making predictions but talking about actual things that they know to be true.

And - everyone - please don't ever ever think that you've "broken" your child. If they're 53 years old, then yes it's probably too late. When they're 5, 3, 12, it's not at all. Every single parenting book I've read has examples of teenagers whose parents use the methods and they get results. Perhaps not immediately but over time. The younger the child, the quicker you'll see results from changing your approach but it's totally possible to change no matter how old your children are. Honestly if my dad came to me and decided he was interested in and proud of me and backed that up with actions I'd be made up and it would probably boost my confidence hugely, because he's never really done that and I'm always surprised when DH thinks I can do something because my experience is... well, not that. Another thing that's quite inspiring (but sad) is reading blogs from women who were part of the fundie Christian movement in the US, you know the really strict "spank for every disobedient thought or feeling" school of parenting, they realised it was wrong and stopped doing it. And their children started to trust them rather than fear them and their behaviour and demeanour totally changed. There's a joke (which is quite horrible really but anyway) which goes "What's the difference between your wife and your dog?" "If you lock them in your car boot and come back half a day later, the dog would be pleased to see you." Children are that forgiving. You really do get a free pass to say "I'm sorry, I messed up" and start again. And when your intentions are good you can mess up in small ways and it doesn't change the overall message. It's a relationship primarily, a role second. If you feel the relationship straining, try to step away from the role and work on the relationship. You are not your child's only teacher.

...And now I realise I'm straying into rambling territory, and as it's after midnight here I will leave it there. But seriously, for every single one of you, because you're doing so much better than you think.

Oh phew waah I meant to respond to negative comments too - I agree with AnotherMonkey that it's a totally British thing to do! Can't be seen to brag about oneself or one's offspring of course! But here's a challenge. If you feel yourself responding with "But...." try to change it to "Thank you, how lovely of you to say." and think of something nice to say about their DC in response. That's a nice way to deflect a compliment from yourself (T'wouldn't be British not to deflect you see ) without being negative and it makes the other person feel good too so it's a win win.

Helloooooo
bertie hope you weren't teaching this morning you'd have the class waking you up. Time for a big fat coffee? Great post
another monkey good news that you are having a good time at the mo! about the rude songs, my nearly teenager was skipping around the house this morning singing "what does the fox say" (find it on u tube if not heard)
Keeping up with this weeks positive theme we just have to be glad they are singing not yelling
I wonder if the backing off you describe has allowed him the space to do a bit of 'self regulating'.

moresnow if you just get hold of a copy of HTT you will find it is really easy to read. In fact even if you just left in the bathroom and looked through the cartoons as you sat on the loo you would pick up the gist of what they are trying to get across. I admit to being a bit evangelical about the book because it is not just useful for communicating with children but describes effective communication techniques, Assertiveness and all sorts of other skills that are useful in all relationships. It also makes you aware of how you are /were spoken to and gives you a "how to" manual of how to change unhelpful patterns of communication. I first read it when my younger children were young primary age, I have returned to it again and again. I wish I'd read it when my eldest was young.

If you can keep up with this thread you can certainly find the time to read HTT, alternatively, print out Bertie's posts and read them!

rhetorician you will not read any of that "just do this...." Type of "advice" on this thread. No one thing is "the answer". We might make suggestions about how to manage a particular recurring problem or situation. But. Your children are not our children and all of them are different.
What Bertie said about it not being so much 'what you say' as 'what they hear' was spot on.

Must go, my timer went ages ago and I have years of accumulated dusty toys and games to sort out that have been unearthed from cupboards and under beds............

Haha, no I was not teaching this morning but I am supposed to be sorting out my clothes. Hmph.

bertie you should write a book - seriously - you are brilliant at explaining this stuff. I teach literature for a living, but seem curiously oblivious to the impact of the language that I myself use.... Letsgo I know, that's my point really - but you know the kinds of posters I mean, the ones who have absolute faith in their own authority, when, probably, in fact, they instinctively do the things we are struggling with and/or have wonderfully compliant children

I agree, those posts are brilliant, bertie.

The only thing I can really be certain of is that an idea or technique might work like magic with DS one day, but have absolutely no effect at all the next. And DD is completely different to DS, some things work with her which have never been any use with DS. I can identify the same developmental milestones (the need for independence, for example) but they present in completely different ways. And that's just my own children. My own boundaries and beliefs and upbringing and needs and tolerance levels will also be different to other parents. I'm certain that there is no 'one size fits all' approach to parenting. Finding the strength to navigate your own path is so important. And so challenging when you're bombarded with so many different opinions and information and this implied narrative that if we don't turn out offspring who eat and sleep and behave perfectly, that we've failed. What's more, defining that perfect behaviour is an entirely movable feast depending who you listen to.

I'm waffling, can't really remember what my point was! It might come back to me when I can see the earlier posts again!

Erm nope, mostly just waffle

letsgo ha :) it's catchier than the 'bottom on your face' song, I have to admit! I think your comment about self-regulating is spot on (and singing rather than shouting - very true )

The book arrived yesterday and I think I'm going to find it interesting. I'll report back!

I used to write a blog but kept forgetting to update it I know it's not always easy to use the right language in the moment especially when you feel emotional about something. I am the queen of saying totally the wrong thing to DH! But with DS I'm more able to slow down and try and say the right thing, I don't know why that is, but it only works when we're all calm. I quite often get it wrong when I'm panicking or wound up.

i suppose the trouble is that every day presents new and complex situations, where the variables are constantly changing (If that makes any sense!). I am immensely frustrated by the things that I just can't understand - we have chickens, DD1 loves them, but just cannot control herself around them - so she will pick them up and constantly try to feed them things even when she is told not to, and told explicitly why. Any ideas?

Evening ladies.

Well, I've been in floods of tears on and off for the last couple of hours after losing it big time - twice - with the DSs.

I'm so annoyed with myself too because I'd been doing REALLY well. With DS1 being in school and DS2 being at nursery for 15 hours a week, I've managed to catch up on some much needed sleep as well as having time to get jobs done (to satisfy the organised, control freak in me) as well as having an hour or two to waddle walk around the shops by myself. Having this time has meant I've been so much more patient with the boys. Only yesterday walking home hand in hand with both of them I really felt like the happiest, luckiest woman alive.

Then today happens. All day long, DS2 (3.2) has been so difficult to please. Nothing has been right and he's argued back with me constantly. I try not to rise to the bait and up until 3.30pm today, I'd managed very well to be empathetic to his needs/frustrations. But at about 2.30pm, he started pestering me to find "his" sunglasses. I had a quick look in the obvious places, but had no idea where they were, or even if we still had them (suspecting they'd most likely been thrown away after he'd broken them - the way he breaks everything). I tried to say to him that I knew he wanted them, and that when we'd picked DS1 up from school, we'd all have a really good look for them. But he kept whinging on and on... crying, screaming, etc...all the way to school to pick DS1 up and all the way back. When we walked through the door, I offered DS1 a snack (he's always starving and very tired when he comes in from school, and having a snack really helps - however, I've found that if he has too big a snack, then he wont eat his tea) so I offered him a smaller yoghurt than usual. This then made him erupt into floods of tears, throwing himself to the ground. By this time, I'd been listening to DS2s tantrums for close to an hour and DS1 kicking off as well just made me explode. I yelled at them both, walked out of the room slamming the door, then went back to tell them that their silly tantrums had caused me to get so angry that I was now having a tantrum of my own. (How fucked up does that sound?!!)

I calmed down, apologised to them both for "losing it" and explained why I'd got so angry - that I had tried my best to look for the glasses and that I wanted DS1 to have a snack but I also wanted to make sure he wasn't too full to eat his tea - and that my apparent "meanness" to them was me doing the best I could but it seemingly not being good enough.

Roll on an hour and DS1 had forgotten all about it, and we shared some nice moments. DS2 was still in a huge mood, crying at anything and everything, and being rude and argumentative ("Shut up, sod off"). Thankfully, I was almost able to see the funny side and I sort of detached myself from the madness around me and got on with making tea. Teatime was a disaster with both boys refusing to eat anything (homemade lasagne - first time in ages I'd made it, which I always find makes for a difficult mealtime).

During the bedtime routine, both boys were once again stressing me out (play fighting with one another and refusing to get their pyjamas on, etc). DH could see how much they were stressing me out, so of course, he then tries to calm them down and when they refuse he smacked them both on the bum. Which of course then stresses me out even more because I'm (now) totally against smacking - at all. I burst into tears and started yelling at them both to calm down, get their pyjamas on, do as they are told, etc, etc. Totally lost the plot. And then I can't seem to stop myself because I'm embarrassed at how I've overreacted and what a complete and utter failure I am. I did compose myself sort of but when reading DS2 his bedtime story the tears just started flowing down my cheeks, which of course made DS2 worry and ask what was wrong. :(

This morning when I was watching the news at breakfast time, and I'd heard that terrible news about someone setting fire to a dogs home and 40+ dogs being killed, I text DH to ask if he'd heard. He replied "yes, apparently it was a 14 year old that started it. Horrible world". I then replied "14?! That's disgusting. What's the world coming to. p.s. I bet his parents are the angry, shouty types". He then replied saying "shut up, what nonsense. We're good parents". I replied "but we could be better".

DS2 has been filled with such anger and rudeness all day. But surely he's only getting it from us? I want so desperately to improve, but every time I take one step forward, it's never long before I'm taking two steps back.

I know I'm tired, which definitely doesn't help, and I have all these damn pregnancy hormones raging through my body, but sometimes, I'm really not sure that I'm cut out for being a mother. It's so damn hard and I just can't do it :( :( :( :(

-

But enough of me, now time to (quickly) reply to some of your replies. They're so inspiring and it sounds like you're all doing great.

I loved your lengthy reply, Bertie. In hindsight, I'm great at thinking of better ways to say things, but for me it's applying it in the heat of the moment. For example, when DS2 is being rude, I always try and put the emphasis on MY feelings about his behaviour, rather than the behaviour itself. i.e "I think you're being rude" rather than saying "stop it, you're being rude". But when it comes to other issues (like the two of them play-fighting) I'm so worried that one will get hurt that before I even know I'm talking, I'm already blurting out "stop it! Get down! Leave your brother alone! Get off" etc.

The power of language is immense, but I've always been a "speak now, think later" type of person. I want so much to be able to change that.

Rhetorician - I know exactly how you feel. My DSs do exactly that sort of thing all the time. Hopefully someone will have some better advice (for us both) on how to handle that.

Moresnow - I'm also guilty (in case you hadn't already realised!) of having a short fuse. As I said above, I wish I could detach myself from situations, count to 10, breath and calm down. Sometimes, I'm actually guilty of telling myself in my head to calm down, but then a second later it all goes out of the window and I end up blowing up. I also need to pick up HTT again. And the other fantastic books I read. I actually don't need to re-read them all - I highlighted all the very poignant paragraphs in pink highlighter so I could quickly refer back to them when I was slipping off the rails. Perhaps that should be my homework for the next few days (until DC3 shows up).

Sorry for not replying to everyone - there have been so many posts, and I do read them all, but often don't have the time to reply. I read this thread morning and night but often on my phone (which as you all know is a nightmare to respond on) but you all give such great advice, or are in situations that I can relate to so well that it just reassures that none of us are in this alone.

I'd better go now anyway. Been typing for 45 minutes . An early night for me tonight as I have the boys all day by myself tomorrow while DH is at football (great!).

I would explain to her at a calm time away from the chickens that it's really important that she doesn't do X and Y because it will hurt the chickens. And that from [tomorrow morning], if she does those things, you will all be going inside to play instead (or whatever removes the opportunity for that behaviour) because it's important to keep the chickens safe. When you're next with the chickens, you comment positively if she's treating them well, or follow through with the alternative if not.

Letsgo I've started reading the book, can you tell....

Mandbaby be kind to yourself x the situations you describe are going to push your stress levels right up. When you think back now, is there any point you think you could have diffused some of their tantrums/rudeness, or do you think it was one of those days when you just need to ride it out?

There is some real positive in your post, too.

Hello all. I also read morning and night but always on my phone and don't seem to remember it all or reply coherently. I read your posts and think you're all operating on a level way above me anyway

So, things are pretty awful on holiday. DH and I have had a massive divorce-level style argument. Things are tense since though we've both agreed what we need to do to improve things. I am snapping at the dc. Often as I've identified before when I'm tense with DH and take it out on them cruel cow that I am . Tomorrow I really, really am going to practice breathing first then reacting. Ever since childhood a short fuse has been my problem and multiple children whinging, crying and screaming (which is frequent) really pushes me to my limit fairly quickly. They have been known to be doing this for hours solidly too.

bertie your post was wonderful, positive and helpful. I'm going to re read it after this to try and stop it going in one ear and out the other.

Things I definitely do are "don't do that/stop that/ etc" style comments. And comments like the "please try to not to hurt your brother/sister, I know you can do it"- yes. I recognise that one! The idea of replacing it with "can you be gentle" is much better. I also recognise that I do more often do the 'better' option in calm situations. When dt2 the other day found my mascara (in this holiday cottage, of course) in a closed make up bag, got it out and drew all over a fabric cream footstool at the dressing table I instantly did the whole 'that was at naughty thing to do, you shouldn't have done that" blah blah blah. I should have got him some crayons and paper to keep him. busy and show him.where is appropriate to draw and also keep him busy while I sorted it out in hindsight.

I worry I don't recognise my dc changing needs in time. I let boys be as independent as possible. For example they have a choice for breakfast (cereal or toast kind of thing not free reign), they pick their own clothes. For nappies I might ask 'do you want your nappy changed upstairs or downstairs? ' 'do you want to go to the playground or river'- used sometimes as none of the 3 usually agree. All the usual. DD I hope I don't put too much pressure on her. I think I tell her she's my helper too often Sometimes if I say DD I'm. just nipping up for the laundry she says "don't worry mummy, I'll watch the boys" she was 4 this Tuesday just gone

Anyway. boys finally asleep so best help dh pack up the cottage.

YYY - some days you totally need to ride it out.

I have been horrible today. Been weirdly stressed and DS has been in a very sharey but not very good at communicating mood and kept coming and talking at me trying to tell me the same thing in a row several times.

Also keep getting thing where it's like we're talking at each other but not really acknowledging each other. He came to snuggle in bed this morning which I don't mind but then after 10 minutes or so I said right then it's time to go and get dressed, if you can be ready in 20 minutes we'll get a pretzel on the way (he can easily do it in 5 but he's been faffing around a lot). He just ignored me as though I hadn't spoken at all. I ask/explain again in enthusiastic manner, nothing. I start sounding annoyed and nothing. I shout, nothing. I push him out of bed. He cries because he fell on the floor. I try really hard not to hide under the pillow and instead feel guilty about the fact I just pushed him out of bed. He did then go and get dressed but I felt crappy about it.

It's a situation which is right in the HTT book - the example in there is where a parent asks their child to stop jumping on the sofa 3 times and then suddenly smacks them without warning. The point in the book though was that the parent didn't mean business in the first place so the child had no idea it was serious! That isn't the same situation but it's so frustrating.

Similar thing happening with bedtime though - we'll say OK it's time to get ready for bed, which he usually does himself, but instead he faffs around, running in and out of the living room or just sort of hovering there not doing anything. It's maddening. DH has got him into the habit of watching TV before bed and if he gets ready quickly then he gets more episodes so I started taking minutes off his time limit for every time he's not doing what he should be doing but that isn't working either. I get really mad with it and usually end up screaming or manhandling him into his room which is horrible. Tonight I didn't want to do that so I said "I'm going to leave you to it." and went and hid in my room holding the door closed It semi worked but he only did half of the things (although he did get changed when I came out). Then he said "I still have time for one programme don't I?" and I realised that I had nothing to add to my "I enjoyed doing things with DS today" list and I'd been really grouchy in general today so I said how about you read me a story, I'll read you one and we'll do our writing book. He was pleased with that and we ended up reading six pages of a Transformers book together because a lot of the words are too hard for him. So it ended well and it was a good idea to avoid the situation but I don't know why I get so wound up by it.

I remembered a few more things!

mandbaby I'm not in heavily pregnant hell and I'd have lost it then too probably. I find bedtime really hard as I try not to fret over how late it's always getting but do tend to catastrophise at that time of day. You're all tired. I try and think 'well, they'll be in bed eventually' . But then I am aware of my evening slipping away, the laundry/tidying etc waiting downstairs, and that if I don't get them to bed for another hour they'll be overtired, I'll be failing in the basic need to encourage optimum sleep and the next day behaviour all round will be worse. I am really going to try and not worry about an extra 30 minutes here or there though easier said than done My mum doesn't help by commenting 8pm is a late bedtime for 2 year olds and a 4 year old.

The behaviour thing is hard too. My dad thinks my children are badly behaved. His specific bugbears are the boys standing up- on their trip trap style chairs- at the table are meals throughout the meal. The manipulation of mostly only letting mummy do things (boys, not dd) . many others I can't remember now. He said after DD 4th birthday party the other week that my boys were the only ones not sitting aren't the table (standing, messing about). But then I remembered it was a 4th party. They were pretty much the youngest by 18 months with just one much younger girl who sat beautifully Is it really that bad they can't sit for meals?!

anothermonkey your comment about behavior outside the boundary of normal resounds with me too. With me it's my DT1. With a lot of the other 'poor' behaviour I admit it'd mostly when others. point things out I notice as I'm always chasing my tail keeping them alive fed a livens safe and entertained. But his behaviour has been even more obvious on holiday as it's a new situation so I've had to supervise them more (to stop them destroying stuff. like the footstool). He really can't play with the others at all. It's like he doesn't know how. Literally all he does is spoil their games. For example at the beach. If dt2 and dd are building sandcastles or digging a hole or whatever he just goes all out to spoil it. Knock it down, fill it in. whatever. I try to distract him. To get him to build his own/fly a kite/ collect shells. Not interested. 100% fixated on spoiling their fun. I lost my temper on the beach this week and ended up pushing him out of range- and he fell over- I didn't mean that to happen, and telling him.to just go away of he can't stop spoiling their fun. I don't know what else to try. I do distraction, involving him, attention for him . Nothing works. and it's not just with that. It's everything, all day every day. If it's it's a puzzle he'll snatch the pieces or pull the whole thing up, lego he'll knock it down throw the bricks, run off with it- you get the idea. He has to be in charge and dominate. He can show empathy. But overall he's so incredibly stubborn and obstinate and has this mean streak it seems He ahtes any soxial situation where he mixes with other children and not on hisbterms- suxh as diddi dance, playgroups etc. Hell protest once he knows we are goung with "i hate diddidance" Despite him.having by far the best language and motor skills of my 3 I do wonder if he's on the spectrum for his social skills- or rather, lack of. Any ideas for managing him guys? Alongside the other 2 as well of course. I'm almost wondering about upping dd hours in preschool but then I'm not overly delighted with it so not that keen. She only does 6 hours per week though.

bertie that is so like my beach pushing. I shouldn't have done it in the first place but I'd used every weapon in my arsenal and it was being ruined for everyone by dt1. It's so frustrating. My dad had come up for dd birthday too and commented straight away that that was really poor on my part.

Would your ds like trying to get ready before a timer beeped for bedtime and see if he can beat it? or put a song he likes on and try and be done before the song ends? mine like tidying up and trying to beat the song.

I really worry mine are scared of me. Apparently the other night as dd fell asleep late in the car and dt2 hadn't napped I decided she'd stay up til he was fast asleep at least so not to disturb him (they are room sharing while we're away). DH did a quick bath with her . I'd put dts to bed but have to sit outside dt1 door while he constantly calls for at least 20 min every night so I was there. I heard him.say go downstairs and dd say " no, mummy will shout. she'll say no dd, back upstairs DD made dh do first. just in case. I feel so sad about that. I said to her you know I wouldn't have shouted. It was my plan you come down. I only get irritated at bedtime if you keep coming down but haven't had a nap so I know you're tired and asked you to stay in bed. She said she knew that but then her behaviour doesn't say that. In fa the I feel worst about that right now- that they might be scared of me flying off the handle.

Thanks moresnow I will try with him. But removing him is also hard as I leave the other 2 who usually want me there and he just lashes out at me and even tried to bite me! I think my mum wonders if they're overtired but it's all the faffing about and debate and prolonging and procrastination that set my bedtime too late. DD could do with going earlier.

I read this on fb before and it's made me.feel worse

www.positive-parents.org/2014/09/dangling-love.html?m=1