Come and be a better parent in the trenches! Thread 2

[BertieBotts]

Terrible title sorry Next time we'll start the discussion at 900 posts, OK?

Originally started by AnotherMonkey, we are trying to improve our parenting which may include less shouting (www.theorangerhino.com) and positive boundary setting (www.ahaparenting.com), or any other goal you want. If you want to be more authoritative that's a great cause too. No judging of parenting styles allowed, honest critique OK. There is occasionally homework (but really, honest, we're nice and don't care if you want to skip past that bit)

Dumping of emotions/ranting after a bad day also acceptable. The saying "in the trenches" refers mainly to having 2+ under 5 but really any stage which is repetitive, challenging, soul destroying about parenting.

Books recommended so far:
How To Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk
When Your Kids Push Your Buttons
The Happiness Project
Calmer Easier Happier Parenting
The Explosive Child
The Highly Sensitive Child

Please post a little intro/reminder just with your DCs ages/stages and any extra challenges - a couple of us have relocated abroad, that kind of thing.

(I am late to make dinner now, oops! )

(((((((choccie)))))))

Yy to everything bertie said.

Around that stage with DS I started making it absolutely crystal clear how much I love him. I say it all the time. We have a secret sign. I whisper it. I play kissy, tickly games (nooooo DS COME BACK, more kisses, more kisssssessss...). When it's just us I tell him how lucky I am to have him, how special he is, how happy he makes me. Even on a good day, I feel his body soften when I hug him and tell him this stuff at bedtime. I can't recommend it highly enough

Just massive hugs to you, it can be so hard.

Choccie, that sounds dreadful, so sorry you feel that bad. Bertie has wise words.
Bertie love the challenge, it is as relevant with my teenagers I'm going to do it.
Monkey feel free to pm me. I feel like I know you anyway, after a year of online conversations

Trying to go over recent posts a bit more carefully.

claires it's good to see you again. Just reading the words "3 year old twins" made something inside me wobble

dreaming things like balance, his speech, a few other things have been picked up too in addition to social/emotional stuff. And I agree with what's been said. But equally, he can be loving, kind, demonstrably thoughtful towards others, well behaved, bright and lucid! I'm puzzled.

HJ interesting theory.

choccie how has today been?

letsgo are you going to start thread 3?

Oh and thanks, letsgo, I might well do that :)

Sorry my post was a bit of an essay - I tried to reply to every part. Obv I am not an oracle and everything is just suggestions - possibly the most important part to take from it is you are not the only person to have ever had these feelings, and no you are not, and have not failed. (emphasis, not shouting :))

I really relate to those feelings that your child doesn't like you, or that you're afraid you don't love them. It DOES get better. If you have seen any of my posts on here on dark days you'll see that sometimes I still feel like it's not going well, but I am having good days now too.

Some three year olds are just genuinely horrible, and that Jekyll and Hyde thing is so wearing - lovely for everyone else, awful for you. She'll come through it. And oh! Something has just come back to me. Way back when DS was little, I read something. It was about colic, but it applies to any difficult stage, I think. The quote was "Sometimes nothing helps, and the only thing to do is that you have to love them through it." Alongside that old mantra "This, too, will pass." (It will.) If you are struggling with feeling like you don't love her, that is depression talking. Depression lies, and it's a master of disguise and a very very good liar.

You see yourself failing, but I see a mum in an incredibly difficult phase (newborn and three year old, hello??) who is doing the absolute best she can. Not failing.

Bertie thanks so much for the advice. I think I have low level PND. But to be honest I think I'd be struggling even without it. I wake up with such dread facing the day. For the most part I am 'ok' but occasionally I really crash. That day was the worst so far. I've spoken to the HV about it, but the treatment options really don't appeal to me: CBT which I've tried before and hated; meds, but I'm breastfeeding; group therapy, I live rurally and getting to these things requires time I don't have and effort I feel is too much to make now. I'll keep speaking to HV when I see her and consider meds down the line if it doesn't lift.

I know that sounds negative but I really feel sometimes that dealing with the bureaucracy of the NHS and clunky system adds stress and pressure when I really don't need it. NHS stuff really really stresses me out.

It helps though to air it here so will try find time to do that if possible.

Yesterday I took DD shopping after preschool pickup (same reaction) and treated her to a 'coffee and cake' at costas on the way home. An attempt at time with her. DS was asleep. She sprung a tantrum that lasted 45 minutes of full volume screaming the instant we got home. I still don't even know why. I hid in the bathroom for most of it, but eventually went out and saw DH ignoring it like it wasn't even happening (which I think is the right way to deal but it doesn't seem to have an effect). So I tried something new: I tried to give her a cuddle: got slapped kicked and punched. I'll have bruises but the tantrum continued. In her tantrum, she said she wanted me to take off her wellies and put them where she was sitting on the floor. Normally I'd ignore this request but not last night. So I took them off and put them next to her against her hip. Queue higher level screaming because she wanted them precisely where she was sitting - I.e. Under her bum. I asked her to move a bit so I could do that - screams even louder because she didn't want to move. So I quietly told her I was going to leave her and go sit in the lounge until she stopped. She followed me screaming and hiccuping next to me while DH and I just sat numb trying to let the noise (which is horrific) wash over us.

This morning I woke to a screaming tantrum. DH had taken her to the other side of the house when she woke so I could sleep. He said there were two tantrums. The first was making porridge: she likes - LOVES - to help so he asked her to come help. She refused and said she didn't want to help, so he said he'd do it. She went mental and said she wanted to do it, so he said OK come help. No she doesn't want to help, and they cycled back and forth with her screaming the whole time before he gave up and left her screaming. Second tantrum was about milk: she wanted it, then when he went to get it she wanted water. When he switched to that she wanted milk - backwards and forwards - milk, water, milk, water - with hysterical screaming the whole time. Went stratospheric when he gave up on both. It wasn't even 8am yet. DH looking very tense. On any other day he'd escape to work and I'm not sure he even recognises that he has 'escaped' and left me alone in hell. Nothing he can do but it's something that I always feel a sense of irrational injustice/unfairness about.

All I can say is thank god he is home today but I don't know how I'm going to cope going forwards.

Last night DD said something telling: she was procrastinating around bath time and it was getting late so I said, if you take any longer it'll be too late to have a story. She replied: "If daddy won't read me a story I'll scream and scream and then he'll read me a story". Both DH and I try to never ever make idle threats so I don't think this is what is happening. But I'm wondering if she thinks it will happen despite months of it never happening.

On bathtime: what a nightmare! Her routine used to be dinner, bath, one episode of a program, bed with a story, and lights out by 7.30pm. She'd go straight to sleep until 7.30am the next day, very happily.

Now we have to argue to get her to the table. She gets up and leaves the table constantly, screams if you try prevent it or warn of removal of treats. Last night I completely finished my meal before she'd had a mouthful. She was only heading to her bath at 7.30, which should be lights out. Same thing: screams going in and screams if you suggest skipping the bath altogether. At 8.20pm she still hadn't gone to bed - we've dropped TV now otherwise it adds 30+ minutes to the cycle. She still gets her story. DH eventually took her through and sternly told her to get in bed. She screamed it was too dark (has never ever complained before). He left her screaming until she fell asleep. This is a new variation.

Tiredness surely must be an added issue at the end of the day.

bertie - the pasta reward bombed with us when we tried it. Naughty corner worked brilliantly but hasn't in the last 6 months. DD wanted the pasta to play with, managed to help herself out the pantry to other pasta and after that was totally not bothered. So I switched it to pom poms in a jar - massive tantrums over wanting the pom poms to play with as well. So I'm going to try do a 'sort of' sticker chart - but not stickers or she'll want those. Also, I was told she might be too young to take something away for bad behaviour (although I like the sound of that). She didn't seem to understand it at all.

I'll definitely use one of those mags as an incentive; she loves them.

monkey I maybe need to do more of the I love yous. I do before bed and at snatched moments through the day. I'm not sure DH has ever said it, another reason her animosity to me is so baffling. I'll try hard with that.

The added sadness is DS. He's growing so fast and I'm missing it because I am so distracted and occupied by DD's behaviour. Sometimes I look at him and realise I haven't properly noticed him the whole day: I've just been mindlessly rocking and feeding. I'm certainly not playing or interacting with him the way I did with her. My poor little boy.

Sorry for so long again - I'm heading off to try read that chapter bertie suggested and to remind myself of the weekly challenge. Thanks everyone.

Oh choccie so difficult.

I don't have much to offer but a quick read of the above post leads me to think she might be getting overwhelmed with the control she finds she has.

She got your DH offering milk/water/milk/water according to what she was asking for that precise second. That is too much for her to handle and she can't cope with it. I would suggest less choice and more "I'm the mummy/daddy this is what I'm offering now. Take it or leave it". I know how easy it is to get into a situation where gradually everyone is doing an elaborate "tantrum dance" to avoid or de-escalate the explosions.

Re-read your post, how many times have you put that screaming or tantrum ing was because she wanted something (wellies under her bum, milk) and that an attempt was made to give her this? I really hate to seem to be criticising because you are truly in shit with this horrible behaviour at the mo and I clearly am not there and don't know the whole picture. But I do know this:

If you give her what she asks for while she is screaming at you, she will carry on doing it.

If you want her to stop screaming at you, you need to be absolutely resolute that she will not be given what she is asking for (milk/wellies/ a biscuit/ the red cup/her spotty pyjamas/to help with porridge/whatever it is) unless she asks in an ordinary voice without yelling at you.you could try completely ignoring the tantrum, or, If she kicks off, try Bertie's 'full attention" approach encouraging her to talk not scream (calm....persistent....repeat in simple words.....) the minute (second) she calms down and speaks give her cuddles/praise for talking like a big girl and let her know you have heard and acknowledge what she is saying/asking for.

My phrase used to be "tell me with words" when hysterics kicked in. Calm repetition. (Put the baby down in another room-he'll be fine...)

This is a very "behaviourist" thing, but sometimes you need to just recognise what is and is not being rewarded. It might be an old fashioned approach and not appropriate with every aspect of toddler behaviour but it might just get you the results you want if you and DH can both consistently refuse to respond to and therefore 'reward' to this behaviour. (Your DH sounds like a total star by the way)

It must be really confusing for her too, she might be thinking that if the baby cries and screams and gets cuddles food rocking and love, then why shouldn't she???

About the depression and ADs . I don't know much about this but after that terribly sad case in Bristol recently there was some stuff online about how it was a bit of a myth that ADs and breastfeeding were incompatible.

Does anyone else know more about this? I remeber seeing an article written by a woman who had taken them throughout her pregnancy and after and considered them a lifesaver.

Finding the whole idea of engaging with the NHS difficult sounds more like a symptom of depression than a reason not to seek help.

Choccie, I really hope you have a better day. ((()))

There are definitely ADs which are safe with breastfeeding - there's an excellent resource on this:
www.breastfeedingnetwork.org.uk/wp-content/dibm/anti-depressants-oct14.pdf
www.breastfeedingnetwork.org.uk/detailed-information/drugs-in-breastmilk/

Of course you may want to avoid them anyway, totally personal choice, but if you thought it wasn't an option, it might be.

Letsgo is totally right... you can't engage with them when they are screaming like that, but if she does calm down and manage to ask nicely, then you can do what she's asking. But you do have to insist on that "asking nicely" part first. But don't worry - it's really really hard to know what to do when they are like that and you do, of course, want to try everything!

Taking things away for behaviour is tricky; it didn't work at first with DS because I tried taking away toys like his trains. He's not particularly motivated by that. What worked instead was a ban from something - TV in our case. He probably did and does watch too much TV, admittedly, but it was effective. Even if he hadn't been planning to watch TV he cared about it and it did seem to stop some things.

On the reward chart/stars thing, I just awarded him imaginary stars (or you could say points, perhaps, or something related to a character she likes) I didn't write them down anywhere and he was quite good at remembering how many he had and I could remember easily too, because the comic was obtained at five stars so the total never got too high. I used to deliberately spread it out so he could earn five stars over 1-2 weeks, though I think reward schemes usually recommend to make them smaller and more frequent. I wanted to keep them for big things - you might want to reward lots of small things so it's a constant drip drip of positive input.

Perhaps you could give her a sticker, and say she can choose - she can have the sticker herself, or she can stick it in a little book (which she gets to keep) or on a chart (in her room so it's "hers") and when five stickers are in the book, you tick all of them, finish it off with a smiley face and buy her a magazine. (You'll need to mark them so she doesn't claim she still has five to go when she doesn't!)

With the coffee shop thing, was that in itself nice? I couldn't see from your post if the tantrum happened during it or after getting home.

YYYY to tiredness - cold is tiring, too, I think. If dinner is directly before her bath is it worth bringing it earlier? I do think kids that age need to be eating at least 2 hours before bed, or they are in that lethal combination of hungry and tired, too tired to eat properly, too hungry to be sensible, short fuse, generally out of sorts. Although it might be that now she's in a pattern of fighting over dinner she will continue regardless. I would be emotionless about it, take the food away if she leaves the table, bring it back when she sits nicely, maximum three chances, don't make any comment, instruction, threats etc, ignore messing around at the table unless it's dangerous or disruptive. She doesn't sound like she's going to starve herself, even if she goes to bed hungry once or twice out of stubbornness. Set a time that the kitchen is closed for the night, give her a "last orders" warning (although if she hasn't finished or started dinner, it's dinner or nothing). Again on Letgo's point, with the parents saying "This is the option, take it or leave it." Don't be afraid to let her lose out on stuff, too.

I might add I am soooooo shit at the letting them miss out on things because of behaviour thing. I want to let them have endless chances, I am always rooting for them to turn it around at the last second. I can't bear it when I have to say "Nope, it's too late" and I always want to offer ways they can earn things back or mitigate the penalty.

I swear it upsets me far more than it upsets them! Ha! That old saying, "This hurts me more than it does you!" Not sure that was ever true but I can understand it, I suppose.

((Choccie))

Tantrums are so wearing. On Aha parenting, she says that they're rarely about the ostensible cause but really a spillover of other emotions. Instead of trying to engage with her while she's flooded with emotion, and so totally irrational, can you just be there so she's not left on her own withit all? Obviously without letting her hurt you, trash the place etc. Maybe she really enjoyed being out at the cafe with you so the tantrum afterwards was about the anticlimax of being home again? Like Bertie said about transitions? ?

My practical issue at the moment is how to get DS1 to drink more water in the mornings, especially when he's at school. He often forgets, and when he does remember, says it's too much and he can't manage it all in one go - that's reasonable, but he's getting dehydrated. I've tried to speak to his teachers but they have too much other stuff to worry about already.

Hmm I thought that had posted earlier so actually crossposts...

This thread had dropped off my I'm Ons, plus I dropped my phone down the loo, so just reading to catch up.

Choccie it sounds horrific I'm so sorry. Everyone has given lots of sensible sounding advice. And I really know what you mean about not giving attention to dc2. I can't believe how much of a blur it is with DD compared to DS. Every day just fire fighting! I hope things settle with DD soon. Are you talking to hv about her as well as you? They might have advice too? good luck and lots of hugs / wine / chocolate / time / sleep...

Anothermonkey if it helps to talk / write about it, do it!!

BertieBotts love the challenge. I must really try that with DD who at only 3 1/2 months isn't talking as such but is really trying to communicate and I'm just not giving her enough time and it'll be good for DS too as I'm sure the root of a lot of his hideous behaviour right now is jealousy...

Good luck everyone!

MoreSnow - you are no more mad than the rest of us! And clearly quite wise to be using the ear plugs.

How is everyone doing now it's the weekend? I have nothing thrilling to report other than three things which are improving my life:

Not feeling guilty about using the tv to occupy DS when getting ready to go out / when cooking.

Not feeling guilty about using convenience snacks for DS rather than beautifully prepared crudités or whatbloodyever more organised people manage to provide.

Having a bun / muffin tray with mini pots (that we used for storing batches of pureed food that DS then always refused to eat) in the kitchen for DS to play with when I'm cooking. Apparently this is the best thing ever! At least for now...

Saw this on four year olds, thought it might amuse a few in here :)

www.renegademothering.com/2015/02/08/handy-guide-pleasing-4-year-old/

Hmm, maybe I need earplugs too, MoreSnow. Noise certainly sends me over the ragged edge a lot of the time.

We had a stupid screaming meltdown (me, not the boys) yesterday over tidying up. Again. But on the whole, DS1 seems to be doing slightly better in terms of dealing with his fears, which is a good start. We've also got a cooperative family card game where we all have to work together and either all win or all lose. It bores me to tears with all the strategy discussions but the boys and DH love it, so I let it wash over me and do the moves they work out! I hope it will help boost cooperation in other ways too, but that's probably wishful thinking!

Ooh I'd like to join you please...

I have 2 boys, one is 3.3 years and one is 7 months. The baby is a piece of cake but the oldest one has always been hard work. He is still in nappies and reckons he is scared of toilet and potty, both cause mass histrionics.

My biggest issue with him at the moment Is he constantly wants to watch TV and I hate it. It's quite draining trying to occupy with other things. Bring on the warmer weather!

I will join in the tech down challenge, I need to lead by example.

bertie that was great! I have a 4 year old very like that...

I am just quickly posting to mark my place. I am struggling to keep up aa the dc have given me their virus and with it I have horrible, painful sinusitis

Anyway.. I had a shameful scream at the dc in the car last Wednesday with a hat trick bingo of too much volume (dt1 screaming full volume) running late for preschool (at our first choice school) and a ridiculously overbooked day (which unfortunately is every Wednesday at the minute). I haven't done anything as bad since but still haunted by howling at dt1 to shut up before I crashed the bloody car. He was basically an overtired out of control 2 year old and I can't believe I did it.

All worsened by dd telling the preschool teacher mummy has and loud voice and shouts a lot. I cried later. I really don't shout every day but clearly it is too often. Preschool have also said dd has poor attention and concentration and does no crafty stuff there; she is very difficult to persuade into anything she doesn't want to do there. Bit of a shock really. She is by far best at concentrating and always has been of my 3! I was going to up her 2 mornings there ready for school but maybe not now. why bother- she does way more crafting etc at home with me.

Feeling very pulled in 3 directions with mine and the absolute constant background of arguing is wearing me down totally.

choccie there's been some good advice and I'm.thinking of you. Preparing and preparing and preparing mine some more for transitions definitely helps. We are leaving in 5 minutes. The last thing is coming to the toilet with mummy etc. Having very definite end points they can recognise to help transitions. I have just gone back to my bedtime.chart we made up with the sleep consultant and that's helping as I've let things a slide since they improved and I've been surprised-again- how a simple thing can have a noticeable impact. You could maybe do a picture chart or sheet about coming home from.nursery to talk through with your dd? Definitely a sling. Hands free is so helpful. I felt so bad about my dts. I doubt I'd ever read to them regularly before they were say, 9 months to a year old. I remember that being one thing in particular I was crying over yet every day I never really fitted it in. dd had looked at picture books with interest from about 5 months. I thought they'd never speak. DD was speech delayed and one of the dts was an early talker! The second child's experience can neverarch the first but they'll know they're loved.

(((Big squidgy (and probably a bit snotty) and disgustingly un-MNy hugs to everyone))))

I have a bit of time off today. An actual couple of hours to myself. I'm a bit giddy and slightly panicked, will prob spend most of it staring wide eyed at MN like a crazy woman whilst everything I could be doing whirls around inside my head

In terms of the shouting... Sometimes I feel like I'm doing a bit better. But DD is doing a lot of imitating mummy at the moment which is fun and her toys do seem to spend quite a lot of time being talked to in a stern, pointy and slightly cross manner :(

My current strategy is to try to make sure that when I'm not in that highly frustrated, fight or flight headspace I make sure that I am giving loads of love and modelling the behaviour I want from them. I'm working hard to use humour and play to push through their grumpiness or difficult behaviour and to connect with them.

I have to accept that I'm not going to win any prizes on Orange Rhino just yet, but hopefully this balances things out a little.

dreaming I would still consider upping the nursery days if you are happy with the preschool. It's not just the crafty stuff - it does prepare them for school and it also gives you a bit of breathing space.

Hi squiz

blue it will improve cooperation and connections - that kind of stuff is great.

bertie I hadn't seen that post - it made me laugh (as usual)!

moresnow that's really interesting that they help - I might try it. I feel like I'm going mad sometimes, too x

bexster that all sounds good

My 'strategy' sounds really obvious - like obviously I love my kids and we have fun and stuff, but sometimes when it's all been too much and I've been shouty and rubbish, it's really easy to let the guilt and frustration cloud what comes next, or to accumulate. It's about accepting that I was pissed off and shouted but it wasn't for no reason at all, so let's apologise and move on, iyswim.

I have tried a new strategy today too, and have high hopes for it.

Inspired a little by choccie's DD wanting the pasta to play with :) I really can't type it all out again, but the full thread is here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/parenting/2304826-Im-trying-to-be-more-authoritative-but-think-its-going-a-bit-wrong-Giant-essay-post-sorry?msgid=52488478

Summary - have smallish number of broad principles, plus smallish number of goals. For each goal reached or principle adhered to per day child is given ticket or voucher. Voucher can be exchanged for privileges. Similar to "points" system in trashy Casey Watson novels ( total guilty pleasure reading there...) A nice alternative to removing privileges, so far reception is positive, will keep you updated :)

General points sorry. Addressed to whoever thinks they apply to them
Pre school teachers must hear a lot about shouty mummies ( I bet they think, "if I had a pound for every child that said......")
I LOVE that renegade mothering link. Cool.
Thanks for the group hug (wipes snot off cardigan)
Love the child playing with pots and baking trays while you cook. Perfect.
Welcome new person

Lovely to hear some positive stuff

Here is mine:
Mine are now both young teenagers. One persistent issue has been wet towels left in inappropriate places after baths (beds, floors, my bed ) so I have been determinedly:

1. refusing to pick them up and calmly insisting that guilty child did this (even if tucked up in bed.."oh mum I'm all comfy now do I have to?" "Yes" )
2. Not getting into any rant and simply saying 'towel' if I spotted the item and letting them work out what they were supposed to do (yes, directly from HTT "say it with a word".)
3. Giving a mild warning "I'm coming up to say goodnight in 5 minutes and I expect children in beds, teeth brushed and towels on the towel rail" before coming up the stairs.
4. Saying thank you after items 1 and 2 have resulted in towels picked up and hung up.

Now the other week they had both had baths and when I came up there was not a wet towel discarded anywhere, (no prompts warnings or reminders issued) they had all been put back on the rail. Success. I went to town. "Girls, brilliant, I am so pleased you both remembered to hang up your towels. You have made a grumpy mum very happy. Well done" .
And. So far, the habit seems to have stuck!

Now, how to tackle the apparent magnetic attachment between phone and palm.....

Yaay!