Does anyone else want to come and be a better parent with me?

[AnotherMonkey]

I've just deleted my original post in an attempt to be more positive.

I'm very low tonight, both of mine (4.5 and nearly 2) are pushing me so far beyond my limits at the moment.

So instead of posting my rant of misery, I wondered if anyone felt like joining me in choosing one thing to be less crap at at time?

Tomorrow, I am going to begin by taking it all less seriously. I'm going to try really really hard not to shout at all (this is difficult because DS is deaf at the moment and often does things which are not safe or bloody annoying but I'm going to find ways around it if I can). Essentially I'm going to try to take a step back and instead of letting poor behaviour bring me down, I'm going to try to isolate problems so that they can be dealt with. I might even make a list. I like lists.

(This evening was so bad I never want to see my neighbours again. I'm quiet, smart and even tempered in real life. Tonight our house must have sounded like a war zone. Or the screaming toddler equivalent. It's shit and it has to change).

Mandbaby, thank you. Unfortunately, I feel like this a great deal of the time and at the moment I feel trapped and miserable and guilty.

"What gets noticed gets repeated" is going to be my mantra. But DS will push and push until it does, it has to be, noticed.

You're right though, I need to keep pushing myself to focus on the positives as there are many.

Today:

1. DD was in meltdown and I asked DS if he would help, he spoke to her so beautifully and took her hand and led her outside to play. She was so chuffed she stopped crying and went with him.

1. Even when I shout and cry it is clear that they still love me and know I love them.

1. They do have lovely moments and my heart flies.

Well done on your positive day - what a brilliant start. I know what you mean about being conscious of the neighbours.

Letsgo, thanks x

letsgo how do you always manage to apply the correct level of perspective? I wish I could interpret the reading I do in the sensible way you do. I recently finished HTTSKWL and I thought it was a life saver. I am on at DH every day to read it too. But when things get heated I hear myself saying all the wrong things and doing the complete opposite to what I read and know is right. I am still struggling with my ability to stay calm when buttons are pushed. Hence I am torn between whether siblings without rivalry or when kids push your buttos should be next!

And on that note monkey, you are allowed to feel like its all a bit too much sometimes because, let's face it, sometimes it just is. It's relentless. And I feel as a working mum that I just want the time I do spend with them to be happy and then it gets squandered with these petty squabbles and fighting and with me getting angry. Sunday night I couldn't even bring myself to post. I wrote about my horrible evening but as I read it I realised how much I was the one totally in the wrong and had overreacted based on my expectations of DS1 's behaviour and the fact we were in public with an audience. I do just wish he would sometimes just give us a break. I know he is capable of being calm and sweet and helpful and interesting and clever. It's just that he realises after a while he's been doing that for too long and he brings out the other one, the one that drives me to insanity..

Well done on your positive day mandbaby. I need to get myself some of those I think! I am on a mission this week to not be the parent I really don't want to be.

Meant to report back on the one word thing also. Well, with DS1 I don't think I have even managed to try it out because he has been driving me crazy and I've been unable to get the right words out. But I did try with DS2 today when I needed him to get into the bath. "Bath!" His response: "No!" ~runs into living room and wedges himself under the sofa~
I am not sure he would have come out by himself. I had to carry him to the bathroom with him kicking and screaming until I distracted him with the bubble bottle... He is the same anytime he needs a nappy change - runs and hides in the corner and denies he has "done'd a poo" despite the very obvious smell!! My verdict so far is that it is something that maybe works if you have no time restrictions or concerns about health!

marking place. I'll be back but I'm with you monkey . overall crap at the minute.

I find How To Talk a bit irrelevant (mostly) with toddlers and especially 3 year olds TBH. It's coming into its own a bit better now DS is five.

The one word thing reminds me of a site I used to like called GYOB - Get off your butt parenting. It's one of those "Christians against spanking" US sites so it has slightly odd parts (and ominous pictures of wooden spoons everywhere!) but one I liked was "Say, remind, make it happen" which basically says when you're asking them to do stuff a million times, they're just learning that there's no need to do what you say until you get totally exasperated. So the article said you need to say something once, then give a one word reminder, and then make whatever it is happen (which you can do in a gentle way if possible)

So with the bath example you'd say "It's time for your bath now" and then when they say "Okay in a minute" you give them a minute to finish doing what they are doing and then remind "DS, bath." Then if he's still being distracted you come and gently guide drag screaming to the bath.

But again, having typed it out, it doesn't work with a toddler who screams noooooooo and hides. Playful Parenting might be good in that case? It sounds like typical toddler "I don't want to do a new activity because I don't like what is happening right now to change" Or what I used to do was give information about what was going to happen quite far in advance like "Okay after dinner you can play with/watch whatever but after that it's time for a bath." and then remind at certain times like halfway through the programme or just before the last one or when they have time for one/two last rounds of the board game or whatever. Or you can make it more appealing by saying "Which toys do you want to take into the bath today?" rather than "It's time for a bath" I let DS take almost any toy into the bath, as long as it doesn't have batteries or stickers they survive just fine. Great use for horrible free items from magazines, mcdonalds etc. And lots of packaging is fun to play with in the bath.

Agree Bertie - the book is more relevant to 5yr old DS1 than toddler DS2. But I like the matter of fact way it presents things because even if I think I don't I do go back to parenting like my parents did (and DH certainly does) so it helps to make you see how unhelpful that is.

Your bath ideas made me smile because that is exactly what I say. What toys shall we have today?? We have had all sorts in the bath recently! Most of the time it works but yesterday he was having none. I even tred to convince him to drive his little car to the bathroom to park. He was not taking the bait! Playful parenting really does help but I find more so with the little one. With DS1 it tends to give him free range to go nuts and then can take a lot to bring him back down again often ending in a less than playful situation.

Ah, ok. I never got very far with playful parenting, perhaps for a similar reason - it just seemed to exacerbate the silliness rather than helping. I think possibly because I am already quite willing to partake in silly voices/games etc on occasion it didn't really add anything new for me.

searching thank you for your kind words re my 'perspective'. probably having three children (all very different) well past the toddler stage gives me the benefit of hindsight and i'm not ''in it'' in the same way that you all are.
also (ahem, polishes academic halo) I did just spend a LOT of time reading and thinking about all sorts of sciency and medical things, did a proper research project, wrote a big dissertation and got awarded an MSc. (which I am very very proud of hence mentioning it here totally irrelevantly on a parenting thread......)
Well done on finding the positives in your day monkey. DS showing lovely empathy with his sis.
Bertie sensible words as ever, playful parenting has its place but if silliness is going on it can like you said exacerbate things. But i suppose if you can turn 'anger energy' into 'silly' energy you are one step closer to 'happy' energy.

Dreaming thinking of you - hope your day has been a bit better.

searching I am so with you on the Playful Parenting - worked well for a while but now often just winds DS up into a frenzy. The 'one word' thing doesn't work so well for me because generally their understanding is good and they just don't want to do whatever it is, so I end up just sort of barking it like a sergeant major. The principle works well though, cutting out all the unnecessary words for a clear instruction.

Today has been great. What a difference. DS woke up after a massive sleep in an agreeable mood, which meant that it was easy to get started on a really positive footing. I've used a lot of the brilliant ideas which have come up on here over the last couple of days. Some examples:

When they get all 'scrappy' I've been separating them really calmly and getting them to look at each other. Then I ask DS what he likes about DD and he always has something to say (usually beginning with aaaaaw she's so cuuuute' . Next I tell DD to look at DS, look how smart/caring/kind her big brother is. She grins at him. I tell them they're both so lovely, do they really want to keep hitting each other? No, they say. They've been much closer and kinder generally and I wonder if this has helped. Definitely a bit less hitting.

I've been taking real care to deal with daft stuff DS does as if he is bright and sensible and just happened to do a daft thing which he can then make right.

I've been trying to be really aware of how bossy I am! Aiming to only give a direct instruction if absolutely necessary but then using the ask, remind, make it happen that Bertie mentioned. Logical consequences then as needed.

I've also made sure that they are full up on healthy stuff, were given some quiet downtime (film/iPad cuddled up on the sofa) and have drastically lowered my expectations of how long they can play for independently or on any one task. I kept an eye on DS for early madness signs and directed him to something else or did some physical, tickly play with them. I've set up the garden so that most of what we do at home can be outside. We went out on an adventure this afternoon.

Using the 'scaffolding' mentioned on the aha site to 'coach' them through sharing-based fights and letting them sort it themselves. They were surprisingly good at it, even 2 yr old DD. I was surprised.

DS was back on side today though, who knows why. Big sleep? Some of the above? It means that the strategies I try are more likely to work and I don't end up wanting to eat my own head in frustration. I've only had one screaming moment from DD too.

And breathe.... Let's see if we can keep it up tomorrow! This really helps me to focus on the things which have been effective and I intend to come back and read it next time I find myself in fight or flight and feeling like everything is shit.

Hey letsgo, congratulations on the MSc! Fantastic

Bertie - sorry this took so long to come back to, I'm not sure I'd go so far as UP is damaging, but I think we all are what we are and whatever parenting you have (bar true awfulness), that's still what you end up with. I have a huge tendency to shut down completely when people try and talk about feelings, not sure if this was always me, or if How To Talk parenting has sort of exacerbated it, that 'let's talk about feelings' but in a slightly false, positive manner, certainly didn't suit me as a child and I struggle with it as an adult. Maybe it's a question of how it's applied, as I still think there's plenty of good stuff in HTTSKWL, just reading it grated a little with me (my mum gave me the book so I kind of recognised how and when it had been applied in my childhood).

It's worth bearing in mind that however we were parented, we all have out hang-ups and buttons ready to be pushed (next on my reading list).

We've done better over the last few days, as it's the holidays , no deadlines and no school runs definitely makes for a happier household. Tomorrow, we have a train to catch, so I might not manage to be so relaxed...

Many more posts that I've not had time to catch up with yet... need to go to bed though, to be ready for the morning!

Argh I need to sleep and people keep addressing replies to me on threads

Thanks Set - I think in some ways I'm looking a bit for a "way out" of the UP philosophy that I've internalised, someone to say, you know, it's okay not to worry about it so much. I think I've become a bit obsessive over the whole issue. It's like a fear that if I get it wrong then - what, I don't know. I don't even know what I'm afraid of. But I know that I felt incredibly resentful and let down when DS was about four, four and a half and I finally admitted that the whole gentle parenting thing just wasn't working in the way I was expecting it to, I was promised this beautiful, pure, innocent, not compliant but respectful and co-operative child and instead, although (I felt!) I had done everything right I was faced with a child who was - and still is in a lot of ways and it REALLY pushes my buttons - not respectful a lot of the time, in fact quite scornful of me a lot of the time, appears to love winding me up just for the fun of it, yes he is often sweet and probably more co-operative than most five year olds, but also irritating, infuriating, sometimes boring. I don't love every second I spend with him, in fact a lot of the time I am trying to squash down my irritation, grit my teeth and not explode, or (not sure if I should admit this ) trying to persuade him to go away, leave me alone, do something, anything, that doesn't involve my input.

It's like I want this mythical child the gentle parenting books etc all promise but I don't have the patience to do it properly or I don't have the personality for it to work and every time I revert to something more authoritarian it's very difficult for me, and I also feel like I'm breaking or crushing something. Sometimes that's not a bad thing - for example he manages his anger without throwing furniture any more - but every time I read a gentle parenting article I'm told "you can supress an urge but it will come out in other ways" and I think I'm frightened all the time that I'm just messing him up. He's anxious, like me, he overthinks, he's scarily intelligent (he does mental arithmetic and he's never been to school!) he has tics, I've started assuming that he has either ADHD or high functioning aspergers or both, more often than I assume he doesn't have them, and somehow that helps! How crazy is that? I'm not going to push for any kind of assessment because nobody else has picked up on this so maybe it's just me, but being able to assign his crazy or not understandable behaviours on "something else" and not just "another way I've screwed him up" (which makes me angry at myself which comes out as snappiness and lack of patience with him). Funny - I sailed through the toddler stages because I could understand and contextualise that his behaviour was not about me, it was developmental and I could work around that, help him to cope with that, and understand it would get better with time, but everything after three is all "Nope! You screwed up!"

Hmm. Well, sorry for the rather long and involved and gut spilling reply the last sentence in particular, I think I'll sleep on that.

And also yes!! Well done LetsGo! :)

bertie I hear you. Attachment/gentle/whatever parenting, I expected to have a placid, gentle child who respected boundaries and was obedient because he loved us so much. Ha ha ha! How about a dose of reality instead! I'm sure such placid easy children exist but we didn't end up with one.

I think every parenting 'way' can be challenged. Ignore bad behaviour / be firm with boundaries is one example of that I have struggled with. I think as long as what we do as parents fits with our values then it must be okay, surely? And not expecting to see a straight upward trend of easiness and 'success' but accept the messy up and downness life seems to really follow? Lowering expectations has been huge for me. And not forecasting far into the future with today's behaviour (he hit me, he will be a woman beater when he grows up!) has NOT been helpful

I mean NOT forecasting (as much!) has been helpful. Doing it was really undermining my objectivity and generating a heap of parenting worry.

We may get called up for a word about DS in future re development (ASD, ADHD, who knows) but at the moment no professional is raising a red flag so until they do I am much more mentally healthy just accepting that whatever we see is age appropriate.

One thing that's helped me lately when DS is resistant and bolshy is imagining I'm modelling the behaviour I'd like to see from DS if he was dealing with a younger child. Like if he was helping a tired scratchy two year old get dressed or brush their teeth or whatever. Somehow that gets me more into empathetic, calm mode. Not sure why.

Bertie (hopefully you went to bed already so I'm not keeping you up!) - I really hear you. I mean really. You could be me speaking the things on my mind constantly. I am so concerned about screwing up my kids. Worse, concerned that I already have. I wish I knew how to stop and just relax and enjoy them instead of always feeling this sense of responsibility that makes me short tempered and snippy and a huge trigger for bad behaviour. I try so hard to do the right thing that when my DCs turn around and do the opposite or are rude or mean to each other I feel like a desperate failure and consequently lose it. And we keep going back to square one. I wonder how many times you get to use that card? All I can say to try to help in some way is that there are days when my mind doesn't go there and I do enjoy the positives, just like monkey's post, and the weight seems to lift a little. I wonder if everyone has those darker moments but just tuck them away or shrug them off. And if they can then why can't I. Regarding the times when I feel I don't like my DS1 very much (when he is being disrespectful or hurtful), the best thing is to put some space between us for a short while. It doesn't take long for me to start to think differently and calm down. And the same goes for him. The difference is that I hold that moment with me and add it to the list of times I feel I have screwed up, and dwell on it for too long. I sometimes think if my mum was still with us (she passed away 16 years ago) I would have someone there to bounce this stuff of and to get some reassurance. But then I'm curious about whether those of you who still have your own mums find you can talk to them about your parenting?

Haha, no, I did go to bed. And then proceeded to get upset about old things. Hopefully PMT hormones.

I find I can't talk to anybody about parenting because their response is often that "my way" is too long and involved and there's always this implicit judgement thative caused all of the issues by being too soft. Possibly I am imagining it some of the time but it's been really there on enough occasions. And then I tend to disregard their opinion because I feel like thry don't understand what I'm trying to do which is really horribleand snobbissnobbish of me but I can't seem to help it and that's quite isolating.

My DPs are still with us, but with other partners. The feedback they both give is that smacking is essential, parenting is a battle that the parents ideally win. However my DM is more hands off, fewer rules less stress for the parent, pretty hands-off. DF is more about rules and behaving properly otherwise there will be anarchy in the streets. He gave more hugs but more memorable smacks. So a wideish gap in terms of role models.

If we include DP's parents the gap is even wider. She is very 'fewer-rules lots of love' and he is the opposite, discipline and criticism. Still not sure how he expresses love!

I do value their advice and perspective, I really am so glad they are all still here even if it is a bit tricky sometimes. Due to old issues conversations can be a bit loaded and emotional. And when they express the exact opposite of what seems right to us I tend to feel like I'm doing it all wrong and also resentful at being undermined, hmm bit of personal growth opportunity there [oops]

It's funny DP and I were complaining about discussing some of the parenting we found hard growing up, but now after thinking about this I want to make sure we see more of them as I would miss them terribly, warts and all. And there are some really awful warty bits!

searching I can't talk to my mum about it. She can't believe my struggles to get my.boys dressed. she just as hold them down and do it and they'll soon learn. And while . sometimes I've had to to get going on preschool run or something teaching them . I'm bigger and I'll force them isn't high on list of parenting skills! My absolute biggest concern is I'll fuck them.up completely- or already have. And I have good a levels, a degree, so why am.i not able.to effectively absorb, understand and apply.the principles I've read about?!

Though yesterday was a good day. my dad came up from late morning though til tea time which helps hugely. I even persuaded made him help me take the dc swimming (traumatic usually even changing 2x2yr old and a 3 year old)

Today I have changed and will be the calm positive parent. Especially if we forget about the fact I already got so furious with dt1 for waking dt2 up by having a screaming tantrum about the fact I gave dt1 chocolate milk for staying in bed til his light came on that I called him a selfish meanie. Havjng spemt half an hour at 1am calmly listening to his whining and then again from 5:30 i was feeling a bit tired and easily irritated. What a prat I am.

I relate to so much of this.

My parents are still around and part of our lives. My relationship with my mum has never been easy and her visits tend to be stressful although the DC like to see her. I could never talk to her about any of this, we simply don't have that kind of relationship. This does make me sad at times and I have really felt that lack of support system since DD. searching I think I've seen you mention before what a strong role model your mum was. You must really feel her absence at the moment. UnMN-y hugs to you xx

One thing which really stuck out for me was bertie 's comment about sailing through the toddler years but feeling like you screwed up after three. I have had the same experience, but have blamed it on the arrival of DD, resulting in a lot of what I can best describe as 'intrusive thoughts' about how I've fucked up having a second and how much easier life would be and how much happier DS would be if it was just him. This feels very dark because I love DD so very much and I think is more to do with my own childhood issues than what is actually true. It's a massive relief to hear that others go through this, regardless of whether there's another sibling in the mix.

As a lot of you know, I also spend a lot of time sure that we have underlying issues with DS. But then we have a day like yesterday and I think surely he couldn't just turn it on and off. I realise things can be different at school and at home but... I'm just not sure.

The thing I really struggle with as far as my own issues are concerned is where this fight or flight panic comes from. Like dreaming says, I'm educated, I have held stressful jobs, I was once nicknamed ice queen (not entirely complimentary!!) by a senior manager simply because even if I don't feel it, I can give the impression that I'm unflappable. So the fact that I spend so much time feeling like there are three of us throwing a tantrum at home really disturbs me.

dreaming you're not a prat! you're a hero. That is seriously not enough sleep to function at your best, whining at 1am would seriously wind me up, and you could do a lot worse than selfish meanie!! Good luck today, take it easy

dreaming NOT a prat omg you were up at 1 then 5 with whining. How is any sane person supposed to respond to that? Sleep deprivation is torture. And you have three little ones, including DT... All I can do is take my hat off to you. If you are making through each day, all of you relatively unharmed, then that is a bloody triumph.

Also it sounds like many of us are educated (with letters even!) and bright but still finding this tough.

I wonder if it's because it is so all encompassing - you have to do all of think, feel, plan ahead, be responsible for, juggle behaviour that would be infuriating at the least in adults (getting kicked, hit, shouted at, not complied with, non communication, having to referee fights, etc) all on a 24 hour clock often with insufficient sleep.

And we love these little people (though may not LIKE them all of the time) so we are fully emotionally involved at the same time as having all our buttons pressed and getting old traumas or issues pushed smack up in our faces.

Not to mention the expectation on mums nowadays to earn money as well as run the household, be the family PA, think of everything for everyone, often doing the majority of housework and meals, shopping, family and extended family birthday, blah blah, etc etc.

I think there is a terrific lot of pressure on mums. We have all that on our plate then feel bad we have to do it all perfectly. Where are we supposed to get all the energy for it all? We can't. We just can't. Well I can't!

back again, sorry to dive straight in, but have very little time.
I wonder if I ask advice about a situation?

Earlier we were getting ready to have lunch, I popped to the loo and heard dd1 (13) and 2 (9) argue. Dd1 wanted me to tell dd2 off for shuffling on her bottom to go to the table.

I asked why and she said that she found it annoying and she asked her sister tog et up but she refused. I just shrugged my shoulders and said "yes it's a bit silly but she's not doing anything to you, just leave her"

then of course, she went on that if she had done that I would have told her to stop bla boa. When I asked why did it matter so much, she said "it's embarrassing" "but there's no one here but us!"
"I don't want an embarassing sister" her reply.

She then got off the table and went to her room without eating.

I ahven't told her anything, just asked later if I should keep her lunch. but WTF? Honestly???

I know I didn't always get on with my sister, but dd1 sounds like she actually despises her.

I suppose there's not much I can do and just have to leave them to it, shouldn't I?

I just have so much on my plate right now, moving house in less than two weeks, toddler dd3 wetting herself all the time after being dry for two months, both toddlers still wake up everu night and sleep with me while dh is on the sofa.

wish I could just go to my bedroom and shut the world out, but it won't

The night is no excuse here guys, this is a VAST improvement. Til this sleep programme he was up 6-7 times a night, even night and slept with me from his first waking anyway (10pm ish) as I could never resettle him in bed. hes been a 5:30am boy all his life too so one wake up should be is blissful

Claires hello!! No idea. that's the kind of thing that would have intensely irritated me if my sister had done it. We didn't get on for. your girls age to about when I was 18 or 19. We are.close now but I don't think anything would have brought us together in our teenage years my sister was very difficult to get on with as acknowledged by our mum . 1:1 time for your elder girls? I'm. not much help, still trying to survive the toddler years let alone older...

BUT just had to pop on to day I finally behaved like a grown up when dt1 put on the brakes and refused to move on the way home.from a 'quick' trip to the village butchers/ school playground for biking. DT2 had politely dais he'd walk song was carrying one balance bike. DD (aged 3) on a pedal bike she only been riding 15 days (ie not great at braking and all things control) and he wouldn't fecking move. I couldn't carry him, his bike and my rucksack full of meat. Instead in the 40 minutes it then took the 4 of us to cover a distance of approximately 500m I did not lose my temper, stayed calm, tried all known tools in my power. And the others were patient, thank goodness!!!

*every night