Are your children’s vaccines up to date?

Set a reminder

Please or to access all these features

Behaviour/development

Talk to others about child development and behaviour stages here. You can find more information on our development calendar.

Does anyone else want to come and be a better parent with me?

997 replies

AnotherMonkey · 18/02/2014 21:30

I've just deleted my original post in an attempt to be more positive.

I'm very low tonight, both of mine (4.5 and nearly 2) are pushing me so far beyond my limits at the moment.

So instead of posting my rant of misery, I wondered if anyone felt like joining me in choosing one thing to be less crap at at time?

Tomorrow, I am going to begin by taking it all less seriously. I'm going to try really really hard not to shout at all (this is difficult because DS is deaf at the moment and often does things which are not safe or bloody annoying but I'm going to find ways around it if I can). Essentially I'm going to try to take a step back and instead of letting poor behaviour bring me down, I'm going to try to isolate problems so that they can be dealt with. I might even make a list. I like lists.

(This evening was so bad I never want to see my neighbours again. I'm quiet, smart and even tempered in real life. Tonight our house must have sounded like a war zone. Or the screaming toddler equivalent. It's shit and it has to change).

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
AnotherMonkey · 24/07/2014 19:34

Searching that really made me laugh.

I have thrown all ideals out of the window today and have had my two metaphorically pinned under each thumb. It was necessary and it did the trick. It's not sustainable though - if I tried that every day it would wear off, I'd have nowhere left to go and we'd all hate each other. It's just a way of pressing the reset button on boundaries.

Dreaming - it is SO true that the quantity and quality of sleep has a massive impact. There was a woman on the radio talking about the impact of reduced sleep on our decision making. Apparently a week (? I think. Short period of time, anyway) of only 4-5 hours means that you are making decisions as if you were drunk. Make that 2 years and counting.

OP posts:
Letsgoforawalk · 24/07/2014 21:08

So glad you shared the high points if your holiday with us searching Wink I must confess I too laughed.
Hope everyone has a good weekend with enough sleep and minimal tantrums
Off camping to festival with the HHO (horrid hormonal one) and SAO (shouty angry one) taking plenty beer. DH is staying home and playing golf..........

BertieBotts · 24/07/2014 21:51

If you have more than one child who is of primary age you could always do the finger on nose thing. It's a drinking game but we used to do it at work and I have a friend who used to teach in China (where the poor kids were so overworked they literally used to fall asleep in her classes!) - the idea is you say nothing but put your finger on your nose. As soon as someone else notices they have to put their finger on their nose. The last person to put their finger on their nose has to do some kind of penalty - you could just make it something silly, the idea is to diffuse the tension of the situation.

Letsgo you're right about thinking about what matters. I suppose the problem is trying to apply that at the time. I tried to get more organised about this, but, well, that was months ago and I haven't managed yet. But it definitely helps to identify "triggers" of this kind of reaction and then figure out what's achievable, what matters.

Letsgoforawalk · 24/07/2014 22:11

Yes, no point in wasting energy on an un-winnable battle.
monkey I'm so glad you started this thread Thanks

SearchingMySoul · 25/07/2014 03:34

I concur with letsgo on that point and most others! :)

I have realised that even when I am keeping it vaguely together and not yelling, I can't help adding a mild "threat" to everything I say to the children. "You need to brush your teeth now otherwise you won't have time for a story" "You need to get into bed otherwise I am going to have to put the sides back on your cot" "You need to stop messing about otherwise you will not be doing that art project tomorrow". Ok, and occasionally when I am not holding it together: "If you can't behave (in the immigration queue) those policemen in the little glass boxes are going to get very angry and take you to the room for naughty children" In my defence, it had been a long day and I really needed the toilet and was at the end of my tether with the boys wrestling in the queue... stillBlush

Does anyone have any suggestions for how to stop doing this? I don't even think I realise I am doing it, it comes so naturally. I don't know how else to get their attention but it feels horrible always using the "otherwise" card. They must be so sick of hearing it!

MrsTerryPratchett · 25/07/2014 03:44

New to this thread Smile Searching the book I'm not going to finish reading at the moment says, one word. Bed! Behave! No 'otherwise...' because it's easy for them to understand one word and it doesn't get lost.

I am currently trying to be positive, "if you go to bed you will have a lovely story and song" rather than natural, "Mummy will cry and scream if she doesn't get five minutes to herself".

Popalina · 25/07/2014 07:38

How about just simple commands like 'time. To brush your teeth so we can have time for a story' etc? It's hard to break behavioural habits like swearing etc. takes a lot of focus and energy!

Crap night, up every hour with baby and put my foot down with the potty training and stopped it, despite being told not to. How can a child screaming and resisting going on a potty be good?

AnotherMonkey · 25/07/2014 09:36

Thanks letsgo - me too! Thanks. I also agree about picking your battles.

Searching, that is so true. I also do that All. The. Time. I going to try to do that less today.

Yesterday morning, when DS was being particularly rude and annoying but before the clampdown, I was doing a little DS song (based mainly around some rubbish beat boxing and the annoying noises he'd been making on repeat). It made him laugh and he did one for me. The first one was made of the same daft noises and me and DH were all 'that sounds nothing like mummy!'. Then he went 'DUMPH doo D D DUMPH doo be SENSIBLE be SENSIBLE'. Well that sounds about right. Blush

MrsTerryPratchett that's a good point.

Popalina that does not sound like much fun at all. I've got the potty training to come - I'm planning to start his weekend. Crikes.

OP posts:
DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep · 25/07/2014 09:37

in "how to talk so kids listen and listen so kids talk" there's lots of strategies and advice. One is the one word one. so instead of "look at you, You're messing about instead if brushing your teeth again it's so annoying" you'd just say "your teeth!" . or you could give information and say "teeth get sore if they're not brushed" or you can describe a situation "I see a boy who brushed his teeth yet" etc and the book says different approaches will work best for different families and children and in different situations. Descriptive praise when they've done it. "you did that very efficiently, there's lots of time for your stories now" It sounds great in theory and does work better. We also use a bedtime chart so i keep getting my 3 and 2 year olds to refer to it and check where they're up to. Hard work controlling my frustration still sometimes (where does dress up in and Cape and sing frozen songs come into our bedtime routine? !?!)

Oh, I've forgotten the rest . I slept really badly last night despite dt1 only waking once. Once! !! though I find it much harder getting to sleep again when I've got up and resettled him than when he woke me in my bed. Not that I want to go back to 6 or 7 night waking and cosleeping. Best stop moaning and practice not losing my temper today....

SearchingMySoul · 26/07/2014 01:51

Yes, the One Word thing sounds like it should work and makes so much more sense than my incessant monologue. But here's a question based on what I think the response would be from both boys: what if the response is "No!"?
I will try it out though and report back.

popalina - totally think you are doing the right thing stopping the potty training if there is so much resistance. I have to do it with DS2 but am being super relaxed and slow about it. No point pushing if they are not keen as you will have a battle of wills on your hand. Good luck monkey - hope it goes well for you. Let us know what tactics you use!

Can't help thinking of letsgo at a festival - don't want to wish away any single minute of childhood but I also can't wait to be able to do that kind of thing with my boys (if they'll have me!)

ClairesTravellingCircus · 26/07/2014 07:34

Hi everyone(if you remember me), sorry to be so absent, there is so much I'd like to say, I'm reading all your posts and it's all very interesting. I struggle to find the tkme to write cohesive posts and contribute to the dialogue.

And a very warm welcome to the newcomers.

Things are ok here with the twin toddlers, I'm implementing some strategies picked up from this thread and the various sites/books mentioned and it seems to work (mostly).

My problem are teen dd1 and preteen dd2. Dd1 seems to hate the very sight of her dister sometimes and it pains me. And I admit I feel hopeless and that it is my fault somehow.

Wish I'd found out about positive parenting and all this many years ago. Sad

Anyway, just wanted to let you know I'm still here, kerping up but not posting much.
This has to be one of my favourite threads ever on mn!

DishesToDoWineFirst · 26/07/2014 07:51

Can I come back too? I have missed this thread and wondered how some of you were going. Better than me I figured! I dropped out of all social media for a while to help clear my head. Bertie I will read the Buttons book, as one of the things I realised during the last few months is that I have been afraid I am raising a man who will treat women badly, disrespect their boundaries and physically assault them. DS (3) being hitty with me and generally being a handful triggered a bunch of old fears. No wonder my reactions have felt so extreme! Will read and post more later!

DishesToDoWineFirst · 26/07/2014 09:19

Argh I just wrote a HUGE post replying to individual lovely people too and the bloody browser crashed as I typed the last character!!! Okay I will try to be zen, deep breath....

SearchingMySoul · 26/07/2014 12:59

Yes, the One Word thing sounds like it should work and makes so much more sense than my incessant monologue. But here's a question based on what I think the response would be from both boys: what if the response is "No!"?
I will try it out though and report back.

popalina - totally think you are doing the right thing stopping the potty training if there is so much resistance. I have to do it with DS2 but am being super relaxed and slow about it. No point pushing if they are not keen as you will have a battle of wills on your hand. Good luck monkey - hope it goes well for you. Let us know what tactics you use!

Can't help thinking of letsgo at a festival - don't want to wish away any single minute of childhood but I also can't wait to be able to do that kind of thing with my boys (if they'll have me!)

SearchingMySoul · 26/07/2014 14:25

Apologies for the repeat post - don't know how that happened.
Welcome back dishes and claires - so good to hear from you again! It's like a sort of family reunion! :)
So frustrating when you write a post and it disappears... It has happened to me numerous times
Happy weekends all. Let's see what it has in store for us.

BertieBotts · 26/07/2014 16:19

Oh no Dishes I hate it when that happens! Sometimes if I'm writing a long post I type it out in Notepad first and then just copy and paste.

The one word thing sometimes helps but I find DS has a tendency to ignore it.

Claire if it helped I was constantly irritated by my DSis (3 years younger) from about 12, maybe 14 onwards. It was just that we were in such different stages - I wanted to be brooding and moody and write terrible poetry and have text marathons with my friends where we barely said anything but managed to carry it on for hours, while listening to screamy goth music and she wanted to play barbies or go out on our bikes or play schools or something. I think it's just that children from about 3 up to maybe 12 are quite full on and love to be around others, and certainly we both played with barbies, soft toys etc for a long time. The younger one won't get that the older one doesn't want to do those kind of things all the time and needs space and time on their own. We shared a room and I was constantly saying "Go away" "Leave me alone" and "Get out of my space!!" We got the closeness back again later, but I think it's a typical teenage thing. Most teenage girls I know fight with their sisters. Do you wanna build a snowman is not that far off the mark Grin

A good alternative to "If you don't... then we can't..." is "When you have ... then we'll ...." - it takes the choice out of it. What actually happens when you say "if" or "otherwise" is you're giving them a choice - behave and avoid the penalty, or misbehave and take the penalty. Then you run the risk that they decide the penalty is worth it. However IME this works better with toddlers, because the issue with toddlers is getting them to do something, whereas with preschoolers and older it's more getting them to stop messing around and get on with something, so saying they can have/do X after they've done the thing you want isn't so helpful when the point is that they are taking 3 hours to do the thing.

Immigration queues are horrible places, everyone is tired and stressed and fed up of travelling. I've seen some excellent fights in immigration queues although mostly been too knackered to be entertained by them.

No tips on how to avoid the otherwise thing any other ways, I suppose just trying to think about what you're asking them and maybe if it's something routine it might be easier to get them to take responsibility? I don't know but I fall back on this too and don't like it either.

SetTheWorldOnFire · 26/07/2014 23:23

I have a few things to mention about Picking Battles and Natural Consequences - however I would like to be clear that this is what I know of the theory, I am often rather rubbish at putting it into practise.

Picking Battles - there are many things, like silly noises, which do annoy you, but in the bigger picture don't cause any harm. If you heard someone else's child doing it, you probably wouldn't notice or care and certainly wouldn't judge the parent for it. Yet somehow, when it's our own children, it is a button pusher. I'm trying to make more effort to ignore some of the things like this, which really don't do any harm and aren't a big deal.
Deciding what falls into this category isn't always easy, as some sibling bickering does and some doesn't, sometimes leaving them to it teaches negotiating skills, but sometimes you have to intervene to ensure the smaller sibling isn't totally pummelled.
An occasion where I noticed this, was when DS1 and 2 other friends were playing at the beach, 3 frisbee rings, 3 boys. They kept arguing over them and us parents were just about to intervene, to remove them all or enforce a 1 boy, 1 frisbee rule, when the boys started playing a game which involved each of them taking it in turns to throw all 3 frisbees at once. It was a very close run thing but they did make a game which worked, which wasn't what we would have chosen and enforced, but was how they wanted to play. Everyone was happy with no punishments or arguments (a rare event).

Natural consequences is probably even harder to work out and enforce, I consider natural consequences to be things like - refuse to get dressed in time, not have time to play x before school. However there are many, many grey areas, like refuse to wear coat means get cold, but I would carry coat and let them have it once they say they're cold, rather than freeze completely. I would say, but we have to cross this road (or similar) before putting it on, so there is a clear sense that if it's refused at a certain point, it's not instantly available at another, but without being cruel (in theory).
It's also about making the consequence fit the crime, so scooting too fast and without paying attention, means the scooter won't be taken out with us for a while, because they need to understand it is dangerous for themselves and other road users, so I can't let them do it, unless it's done carefully. Removing TV watching privileges for irresponsible scooting would probably seem unfair and irrational to the DC, which makes it harder to learn the lesson from. As a normal, responsible adult, I understand that if I left my shoes out in the garden, it means I have wet shoes and have to wear another pair or not go to the activity which involved those shoes (so no gym if trainers are wet), I would not understand if it meant I couldn't watch TV on Saturday night, as this has no relation to my shoes wet/dry status.

I think How To Talk So kids Will Listen has better examples of this (I have read it and do agree with it, despite an inability to put it into practise). My mum was a HTTSKWL parent and, although I love her dearly, I get very irrational when people try to ascribe me feelings I don't have (which she did do according to this book's teaching), I agree recognising your DC's feelings is a good thing, but hate the way the book instructs you to tell them you know they're angry/frustrated/etc, when this isn't always the case. I definitely agree with trying to apply empathy, to understand where they are, but telling them they're feeling certain things might be counter-productive.

Although I worry that I shout too much, I'm also not convinced that constant understanding and unconditional parenting, turns out utterly happy, confident, perfect DC. I think it's far more fair to say we all just mess up our DC in slightly different ways, according to our parenting style (based on the fact me and my sisters are all slightly screwed up, but in different ways, by semi-unconditional parenting).

Our biggest battles have always been when I've tried to push something, which I think they should be doing, but they aren't developmentally ready for. I think walking instead of buggy, potty training and general independence skills are places where we've had huge ructions trying to do what society thinks a 2,3,4,5,6 yr old should do, and then they've just gone ahead and done it with no problem a few months (years/ tears) later.

BertieBotts · 27/07/2014 08:48

Great post settheworld :)

On your example with the boys, there's a theory in how to talk about just that, interrupting the fighting just to let them catch their breath and look at each other, and then telling the problem to them and asking them to sort it between themselves. Sometimes theyll stop fighting on their own to do this and sometimes you'll need to just intervene to give them a minute.

I have always had the opposite problem that DS didnt think he was ready for things that I know he'll be fine doing alone. I've always taken the view that if they want to do something you should let them try as long as it's safe and there are ways to modify most activities so they are safe.

For the coat thing it depends to me on age and understanding. A small child literally can't understand "it will be cold when we get out so you should put it on now in this warm house". I used to let DS run out into the garden quickly to check if he thought he needed a coat which worked. When older I get him to carry it himself but he asks now what the weather is going to be. Whether I would take one regardless would depend on season, length of trip, whether others are taking theirs etc. If I take it though then he's allowed to put it on immediately, because I don't think it's particularly bad of them to not want to put a coat on, sometimes I misjudge for myself what clothes to wear.

In the how to talk books it does say that sometimes you'll get the wrong feeling and that your child will tell you. Perhaps not always true?! I do try to word it as a question rather than assuming I know something.

I would be interested to hear if you feel willing to share how you felt UP damaged you and your siblings, because I always revert back to this being the best way but struggle to keep to it so fall back on other parenting methods. I like to hear about real downsides (not just "that sounds like it would never work") because I'm sortof aware that theory is useful but not everything and I'm in danger of over relying on it too much. Plus I don't agree with some of the premises at all.

BertieBotts · 27/07/2014 08:50

Oh I misread your post! I thought you were saying they wanted to try things you/society didn't think they were ready for.

Letsgoforawalk · 28/07/2014 00:09

So much to read, so much to comment on!
Will have to settle for hello to old friends and new, festival was fab.
The weather! The weather! Beer, music, company all great.
Lots of little people there, I thought of you lot seeing all the pre schoolers running around, running their parents ragged but also having a lovely time enjoying the freedom and the music. It was a very gentle small family friendly festival.
Quite tired now. Might post about parenting, or might give you my "how to enjoy a festival with children" tips. If anyone is interested? Mn probably has a whole section on it already.....

Letsgoforawalk · 28/07/2014 00:12

Might post about parenting tomorrow
Like I said, tired. Not checking stuff Smile

Letsgoforawalk · 28/07/2014 12:01

set the world fab post, well observed about the beach frisbee thing.
Hello dishes and claire's Brew
bertie you describe the (sometimes) relationship between my not quite teen and young teen very well. It swops about too though, with the older one not quite having left childhood things behind and the younger being at times 12 going on 19 and deciding she is too cool for all sorts of stuff.

The one word thing can work because it helps on a few levels.

  1. our voices can become 'wallpaper' that our DCs just stop hearing if it is incessant or repetitive.
  2. It gives them the message that you believe they can think for themselves, they know that shoes do not belong in the middle of the floor, but do belong in the shoe box, cupboard or whatever the place is in your house. A two year old knows this, so give them credit for this knowledge and let them work out for themselves what you mean when you say (cheerfully) "shoes?" Ideally keeping sarcasm and irritation out of your voice even if this is the 19th time this week.........
  3. Doing what someone has told you in detail to do, accompanied by a mild threat. How does that feel? Doing what you know you should be doing after a mild prompt, followed by a warm smile or a 'this room looks tidy now, that's great' how does that feel? Autonomy feels good.
  4. Children go through a lot of mental steps to process what is said to them, a speech therapist outlined them all for me once and there are lots. This is why the 10 second rule is very useful, simple verbal prompts are good for the same reason.
  5. In one word you are not calling them lazy, irritating, messy forgetful or anything else that can come out in the sort of tirade it is easy to get into when you have tripped over their school bag left in the kitchen doorway for the nth time that week. Through gritted teeth if need be, one word works and leaves out the lecture. Tell them later that if you trip over their bag one more time you are going to swop it for a fluorescent pink one and stitch cow bells onto it so that it is easier to spot.

set the world it is interesting what you said about the attributed feelings thing, that is immensely irritating. I interpret the instruction in the book to be careful listening and helping them to put a name to their feeling so that they know you understand how they feel.
they can say 'I felt upset and frustrated when they wouldn't let me join in', rather than just being bad tempered: 'I hate so and so!'
And having their feelings denied 'but you can't hate her she's your best friend'
Clear lines as well as empathy is needed with this 'unconditional' stuff. Unconditional does not mean 'do what you like' !!

Hope you are all having a good day, now I must return to the tent airing/laundry/ shopping tasks.........no more MN I have Work to do.
I Will Not have a quick look at the camping threads, oh no, I am a Busy Woman.

AnotherMonkey · 28/07/2014 18:36

These are great posts, so much good for thought.

I need some calming words today. I feel so utterly shit at this.

DS can be fantastic. He really can. He knows how to behave and how to be polite and how to be kind. But so much of the day is spent behaving in the exact opposite way. It's as if he just doesn't give a shit what I say. Or as if he simply doesn't think any of it actually applies to him, despite it being directed, clearly and simply, at his level and with enforced, mostly eye contact, right at him.

He takes great pleasure in stirring up his sister so she spends half the day screaming.

They're in the bath with DH at the moment and it sounds completely mental.

I cried this afternoon, I couldn't keep it in. I pulled myself together and have a sore throat now from the effort of not spending the afternoon sobbing. It's just firefighting.

I've read the books. I know the type of parent I want to be. I'm no pushover. But I don't know where it's going wrong.

OP posts:
mandbaby · 28/07/2014 19:42

Letsgo Great advice. I tried the "one word" theory on DS2 (3yo) yesterday when I'd tried for ages to get him dressed. In the end, DH took DS1 downstairs and I just said "dressed" to DS2 and he did it immediately!

Great advice from settheworld too. Thank you.

Welcome to the newbies. And welcome back to the "oldies" too!

Anothermonkey we all have days like this. I've had several in the last month. As hard as it is, don't beat yourself up and focus on the positives.

Talking of which, I've started my diary today. And today's entry is a good one. DS2 has been a little shit all day. (Well, I say all day. He was actually in nursery this morning and I wish he could've stayed there!). Huge tantrums, demanding food (even though he'd already eaten loads), and generally not happy with anything. And to cap it all off, he is now not only saying "shut up" every time he doesn't get his own way, he now says "sod off" as well Shock Blush. I'm mortified. He must've said it at least 5 or 6 times today. But not once did I shout or punish. I've explained to him how I think it's rude and unacceptable and I've tried to get to the root of what's bothering him, but to no avail. I'm just very proud of myself, because two months ago I'd have yelled at him and put him on the naughty step.

He is desperate at the moment to have a cuddly toy he's seen of the aliens from Toy Story (he's Toy Story mad). And I've told him that I will buy them if he can go all day without being rude. Every time he says "shut up" I tell him he should say "aliens" instead when he's feeling angry. It doesn't seem to be working. My next tactic is to completely ignore it. As I read last week "what gets noticed, gets repeated". Ignoring it seems so hard though - especially when I'm sure our neighbours can hear him saying it when we're in the garden. Blush

Letsgoforawalk · 28/07/2014 22:02

monkey Brew and Cake, it will get better. Hope tomorrow is a good day.
mandbaby Brew and Cake for you too. Never mind the neighbours, children say all sorts of dreadful things, good idea to give him an alternative. Not sure what to suggest other than, it will pass and you are doing the right thing by staying calm and thinking about the effect your words have.