Does anyone else want to come and be a better parent with me?

[AnotherMonkey]

I've just deleted my original post in an attempt to be more positive.

I'm very low tonight, both of mine (4.5 and nearly 2) are pushing me so far beyond my limits at the moment.

So instead of posting my rant of misery, I wondered if anyone felt like joining me in choosing one thing to be less crap at at time?

Tomorrow, I am going to begin by taking it all less seriously. I'm going to try really really hard not to shout at all (this is difficult because DS is deaf at the moment and often does things which are not safe or bloody annoying but I'm going to find ways around it if I can). Essentially I'm going to try to take a step back and instead of letting poor behaviour bring me down, I'm going to try to isolate problems so that they can be dealt with. I might even make a list. I like lists.

(This evening was so bad I never want to see my neighbours again. I'm quiet, smart and even tempered in real life. Tonight our house must have sounded like a war zone. Or the screaming toddler equivalent. It's shit and it has to change).

Hello, can I join this thread?

I have a DS1 aged 4.7. DS2 aged 2.11, and DC3 on the way.

I yell at them every single day, and every day I put them to bed and am flooded with guilt at how ineffective and inadequate I am. I am SO short tempered, and my husband is too, and I think we're both stuck in a vicious circle of anger and I can see our boys mirroring this behaviour now too

I have downloaded several parenting books to my kindle and have started reading one or two. Both describe our family to a tea, but then daily life takes over and I give up reading and nothing moves forward.

I am TERRIFIED that my boys will grow up to be angry, aggressive individuals and remember a childhood full of shouting. Don't get me wrong, they're showered with lots of love and time too, but all I seem to be able to remember is the minutes/hours/days when I'm yelling and screaming at them, or DH is too.

I haven't (yet) read all the replies - but I will. But one of the comments on the first page really struck a chord with me yesterday and I drove in the car crying. "My children were perfect until they got me as a parent".

THEY are not the problem. I am. Help!

mandbaby you are very welcome! Things will get better, partly because the children will not always be 2 & 4 and partly because you want things to change and are motivated enough to make changes. there is lots of good advice within this thread and people who know how you feel.
Good luck and keep posting on here.

Can someone post me a link to the Orange Rhino 30 day challenge. How do you get the daily tips emailed to you? I can't find it on there anywhere.

TIA.

I'm gradually reading through all 500+ replies. Can someone please explain to me what is meant by "natural consequences".

Thanks.

Hi mandbaby I didn't know either so I googled it and found this quite helpful article
blog.positivediscipline.com/2012/04/natural-consequences.html.
I don't know about the orange rhino one, the website looks confusing to me.
How is it going?

It's going good for me, thanks. Two days and no shouting. (However, it's probably not as good as it sounds as I've been at work the last two days so I've only been with them for 5 hours today. I came close to shouting once but I stopped and thought for a moment.

I've printed off newborn photos of my boys and pinned them up in prominent places around the house as a visual reminder of how vulnerable my children once were - and still are. Hopefully these will help.

Here's looking forward to a 13 hour no shouting day tomorrow...

Oh I'm glad this is back :) Actually was thinking about it the other night as I wanted to post but then forgot to.

Natural consequences - this is basically the effect of something if the parent wasn't there to police it. So the natural consequence of messing around at the table might be that you knock your dinner on the floor, or the natural consequence of going out without shoes is your feet get wet and cold, putting your hand in the fire means you get burnt, etc.

However a lot of people say natural consequences when they mean logical consequences, which is stuff like if you make a mess, you have to clean it up. If you mess around at the table, you'll be removed before you tip someone else's dinner over, etc. The natural consequence of making a mess is that the house/room is a mess, which might not mean anything to a child on its own - pointing out that the crayon won't come easily off the wall, or that it's unfair to mummy/daddy/other people who live in the house is a step above natural consequences but probably necessary - natural consequences aren't a great help or teaching tool on their own for socialising small humans! :)

What I was thinking was it would be good to kind of make a four point focus plan. You don't have to share them on here but they might be good for helping us focus our energies rather than everything seeming overwhelming.

1. What makes you feel guilty.

1. What do you enjoy. What's the best time you have with your children?

1. What don't you enjoy but do because you feel you should? Or maybe feel guilty because you don't do enough?

1. What things help you parent at your best (you're not allowed to say "My kids behaving!" - stuff like eating better, sleeping better, having support from DH, getting out more, having a plan, not having too much to do, etc)

Make the list, and, please, DON'T WORRY if your negative lists are longer than your positive ones.

For 1, go through each item, maybe with DH and/or a trusted friend, or post on here if you want to? And see if your guilt is justified. You will have some level of totally irrational mommy-guilt, that is inevitable. They put it in when they take the placenta out, as someone very wise told me a few years ago. So you can strike a few items off the list straight away, but it helps if you can have someone to reassure you about those things!

Then from what is left, you're going to pick one thing at a time to work on and change, but not yet. Go through the other three items first.

1. You need to cherish these and do them more often. Can you work them into everyday boring activities or maybe parts of list 3? For example I like having conversations with DS about interesting topics, which we can definitely do during some other less fun activities.

1. Again this is a list to work through and see if it's something that you really have to do - not everything is! Don't let the guilt rule you, or ideas of what you "should" be doing. Can you follow that "should" through to an actual logical conclusion? For example - "I should really make dinner, even though I hate doing it." Why, because if you don't feed your children they might starve. Okay, that's pretty compelling, vs "I should always read a bedtime story even though my child hates it and it ends up as a huge battle" - why? The bedtime routine could involve something else, you could read at another time, you can have a break for a while and see if they want to get back into it. Don't fall into a trap of "someone/everyone said it's true so I believe it" - follow the why.

If you really do believe it's important, then okay. Can you delegate. Can you devote less time to this. Can you take shortcuts any or all of the time, can you do it in a different way, perhaps incorporating something from list 2? Are you more able to do it if you take care of list 4? Can you set limits on this so that your children aren't demanding more than you can handle? Is it something temporary that you can look forward to not having to do any more. Can you imagine going forward in time and looking back and missing this thing?

1. Whichever of these you can easily achieve, go for it. It might be as simple as going to bed earlier, when I was a single parent I used to go to bed at the same time as DS a couple of nights a week, that was just my life, if I didn't do that I couldn't physically cope. It was a short phase and I don't need to do it any more, but I do have to go to bed at a reasonable time.

The things which are less easy to achieve - work around it. If you have a partner, you can take naps. If you have any slack in your income, you can afford to spend a bit more to buy food which is both healthy and tempting, rather than cheap and tempting or healthy and not very interesting. Can you be a bit creative. Rearrange your day so it's more structured, or there are less things to achieve. Long term can you change anything. If you have a non sleeping child sleep may be difficult but can you work to change that or at least accept that it will be easier as they get older. Even big changes - changing your own or your partner's work hours, for example. Hiring a cleaner, if you have the wiggle room. Paying for more childcare. Studying. Moving! Seeing a doctor about persistent health issues or tiredness - there might be a deficiency which a blood test will tell you.

Tired yet? I suspect this will take me a good few days to work through myself, but once you've done it, you then have a few things you can try to change which hopefully shouldn't be too difficult to implement, and then it's easier to tackle the big guilt inducing things and you can make a list with action points. Maybe pick an easy/obvious one first - the one I want to tackle is DS' food, at the moment he eats far too much junk food and a v limited diet. I want to put more time into planning meals and eating together which is going to be a fairly big change - we'll have to eat later and push his bedtime back. But we've ordered a new dining table, finally, and the next step will be for me to make a list of the "normal" or healthy meals that he will happily eat and make some sort of a rough meal plan. Then, I hope, it will be easier to add in new meals.

Welcome back Bertie!
mandbaby I maybe should have warned you about the homework
You won't find a quick fix on here, nor will you find nasty comments, the famous mn judgey pants or people who think it's their way or the high way.
I will have a good look at your post bertie and do my lists later today. (I love a list!) Still having a lovely week off with convalescing girl. Baking cakes, clearing out clutter and cooking nice family meals. Spending so much time in the house is making me realise just how dirty it is though!

Haha, well, the "homework" is not compulsory but some of us like navel gazing

Yay we're back! I often think about the posters on this thread. I keep hoping searching will come back on too, I'd love to know how her boys are getting on now.

mandbaby welcome :) well done on the two days, it's a great start. There's been so much good advice on here but for me, the aha parenting site (and, crucially, the email updates) has made a real difference to the way I respond to difficult behaviour. I still have crap days but I'm definitely a better mum on the whole.

www.ahaparenting.com

Bertie, those are good questions. I'm going to think about those properly this week. I'll try to post my answers if you will

letsgo I hope all is well with your daughters. Do you think your eldest is underweight for a medical reason or because she's consciously trying to be slim or just because? I hope your younger daughter is recovering well. I like the sun/wind analogy, it basically describes the approach I'm trying to use with my two, although I'm not always successful!

CTC I definitely remember you! was generally in awe of how you manage at all!! I agree that giving the hitting as little attention as possible works better than anything else I've tried. In our home, DD is now not only capable of standing up for herself, but generally shouts 'DON'T YOU DARE' in her little 2 year old voice and goes in for the kill. It seems to be spoiling the fun for DS (!) and it's not been such a problem recently. Honestly, they're mad as a box of frogs, the pair of them.

I'd had a brief read of the Aha! website and suddenly realised that I bought the website creators book about 6 months ago but never got round to reading it ("peaceful parent, happy child" by Dr Laura Markham). I will definitely be picking it up after I've finished my current book.

Had a shit day today. Yelled at both my boys when they were running around after each other, screaming. I asked them to stop but couldn't be heard over their shrieks and squeals and so had to shout. Does this count? [Blush]

bertiebotts you've got a mention in today's mumsnet email, did you know?

I've picked up Laura Markham's "Peaceful Parent, Happy Child" and dropped my other book. I'm about 20 pages in and already finding it very good. I've read no advice yet as to how to improve things, but it's just amazing how much it's ringing true.

The only thing I would disagree with is, the book basically says that our anger against our children comes from scars from our own childhood and when we address those, we can heal as adults and move forwards and parent without being angry. But TBH, I cannot really think of any scars from childhood. I was never smacked, rarely yelled at. I was well behaved and my parents (especially my mum) were very patient with me.

I believe that my anger is more to do with fatigue, patience (or lack of) and frustration at not being listened to.

I will read the book through from beginning to end and hope that it helps - it has amazing reviews and as I said before, parts of it ring true.

I actually think part of my problem is feeling like my husband and I are reading from different hymn sheets. Sometimes, I'm uptight and sweating the little things, and he doesn't. And then other times, he gets angry at the slightest bit of "misbehaviour" and then I feel my stress levels rise because I know that if HIS temper goes, it spoils the whole day for everyone because there literally is no snapping him out of a bad mood once he's in one.

did I?

Haha! Double whammy Thanks for the heads up :)

I would say shouting over noise doesn't count. Although I'm not doing a personal shouting challenge.

I agree "isshoos" now aren't always down to problems in the past. In fact the most up to date thinking in the field of counselling/therapy etc is that it's not helpful to focus on the past, just focus on the present. If the issue is caused by the past then often it's still playing out in the same patterns now so dealing with it now is still going to heal the same wounds (and it's of more practical use now) - the old adage that everything goes back to some trauma in childhood is thought outdated now.

Don't get me wrong - I didn't have a "perfect" childhood. 3 issues stick in my head, but none, I don't think, are being repeated in my own parenting:

1. My mother went through a phase of drinking heavily when I was in my early teens and I often used to come home from school and find her virtually passed out and had to try and sober her up before my Dad came home and a blazing row ensued. Whilst I resented her for it at the time, it's taught me that I will NEVER drink excessively in front of my children, and if I do have a drink, it's a small one with a meal. I don't even like my hubby having a cold beer in the afternoon in front of them, as I just think it promotes bad habits.

1. Birthdays weren't a very big deal in our house. No presents (just money in a card of every relative) and never a party or a cake. My birthday was always in the school holidays too, so was often forgotten about by friends too. This has taught me to make a HUGE fuss of my children's birthdays - lots of gifts, excitement, always a cake and a small party. When they're older and they have friends to invite, we'll have bigger parties - if it's what they want.

1. My mum and dad weren't cuddly or kissy and I don't recall being told "I love you" many times as an OLDER child. Possibly they stopped because I went through a stroppy stage of not wanting to be kissed/cuddled, etc. Again, this has taught me that I will kiss, hug and tell my children that I love them every day until I die. I don't care how embarrassed they get!

I really hope the book does move away from "scarred childhoods" preventing us moving forwards as parents in our own right because if it doesn't it will prove to be a useless book!

I'm sure none of the above turned me into the Orange Rhino yelling at my kids for doing something very minor.

What Bertie said is good. Yes it is not all "tell me about your childhood" these days, but it would be naive (as mandbaby neatly illustrates with the coming home to find mum sozzled history affecting her feelings and behaviour now....) to think that it has no impact.

I find books that imply that a "perfect" life can ensue if only their instructions are followed to the letter, quite off putting. This is real life with a squillion things influencing all of us, our moods, actions and the demands that are put on us in any given moment all affect how we respond to our children and their behaviour.

To address a specific thing that you mentioned mandbaby when the boys were running around after each other and you couldn't make yourself heard shouting them to stop. Could you try a different approach next time they do this? Children can't populate a vacuum so when you ask them to "stop" you are giving them the job of thinking of something more acceptable to do than run around screaming.
If you think of what you would like them to do instead of running around screaming and direct them to do that (ideally an attractive option, don't expect them to stop being noisy monsters in order to sit on a chair and make small talk with auntie Gladys...) you might stand a better chance that they will listen.
For example if you were outside there might be birdsong or something that they would have to be quiet to hear. Or indoors 'lets all pretend to be sleepy badgers' or whatever..
If it is somewhere that you really need them to calm down and sit (restaurant, dr waiting room) bring a toy, tell them what behaviour you expect ( you can talk and sing but no running around) and try and calm things down before it gets to the running and screaming stage. I am sure you probably do this sort of thing already! And the age is challenging. I'm no expert but it helps to plan what to do in advance so you have a strategy and have less thinking to do when it happens.
Just reread your post, if your hubby and you are on different pages, join the club! Lots of us on this thread have this problem to a greater or lesser degree! Sometimes it is ok but when it isn't it really doesn't help. Good luck
We are all fine, little one recovered and back at activities. DD 2 (13) is thin not through any ED or health problem, just small appetite (and can be picky grrrrr..) and doesn't seem to get hungry until she is falling over and weeping from low blood sugar.
I fell off my yesterday and feeling old and achy today. I'm not as bouncy as I used to be.

Letsgoforawalk I know what you mean about feeling old and achey! That's me down to a tee! Doesn't help being in my late 30s and being 25weeks pregnant with 2 under 4s!

Speaking of being on a different page to hubby, I really worry that this issue could worsen... I am determined (if not entirely successful) to become a calmer parent. One that listens more, shouts less and never smacks. My hubby on the other hand is in the my-parents-hit-me-and-it-never-did-me-any-harm camp . Whilst I have regrettably smacked both my boys in the past, I knew at the time I shouldn't and it was in an insane momentary, angry outburst. I have sworn to myself never to do it again, but hubby threatens it all the time as he thinks this is the only way to control them.

The more I'm reading and learning, the more I'm realising that children CAN'T and wont be controlled - well, not if we want them to be calm, content, happy children. All we can do as parents is to guide them. I really want DH to read the books I'm reading on calmer parenting, but he's so busy with work (he's a teacher) and as soon as our kids are in bed he's busy marking/planning/etc. If I were to suggest to him that at the end of a busy and stressful day he starts reading how to be a better father, I think he would take this as an insult - rather than a desire by me for us both to be singing from the same hymn sheet, and to perhaps open his mind to other ways of parenting that don't involve control, anger, yelling and, at times, violence. Violence is too strong a word, but you get what I mean.

mandbaby, I really sympathise with your last paragraph. Tbh, at the moment I've decided to sort my own shit out and worry about DH later! But I do notice DH saying things to the DCs sometimes which I know he's got from me. And I know our issues are quite similar and that he really cares about being a decent parent too. So I figure some of it will pass on subliminally anyway?! I know that some of his opinions on discipline are shifting even though he hasn't been reading the books.

LetsGo, DS is a string bean. Some of this is definitely genetics and some of it down to stubborness. It can be so frustrating and concerning at times. Have you got any impressive injuries to report?! Falling off the bike sounds painful, hope you're OK. I don't feel as bouncy as I used to be in more ways than one, I have to admit

AnotherMonkey yes, I think perhaps you're right about our good practice hopefully rubbing off on DHs. I notice a lot of what DH says and does he's picked up from me and he has generally been led by my example since DS1 was born. I'm hoping that as I become a calmer parent and my children reap the rewards, he will realise that there are other ways to parent than just shouting and threatening (and occasionally) smacking. (Don't get me wrong, he doesn't smack and leave a mark - more just to shock them into paying attention to what he's asked).

Weirdly, DS1 and DS2 both do as I ask more often than when DH asks. Whether that's because I've generally shouted more over the years than he has and I've made them scared of me or whether it's because I'm more likely to follow through with threats than he is. By threats I mean "if you don't stop doing that then we wont go to the park", and "if you don't eat that your dinner, you wont get any pudding". Whereas my hubby says these things but gives in and lets tham have what they want.

It is really tough with DH or DP not being interested in doing the parenting differently. I think we all understand that. It does however rub off on them, especially when they see you consistently getting a degree of cooperation. Even if they are not consciously admitting it I am sure there is some "what did she do to get that cooperation? I want some of that...." thinking going on. At the end of the day smacks and shouting stops being effective. Then where do you go?
As a teacher he probably
A: has techniques for dealing with children already that don't involve aggression
B: finds it hard to deal all day with challenging children and come home and do the same.
Maybe you could turn it round and talk to him about teaching, assuming he has some knowledge that you could use on your own children,asking for his advice you never know there might be nuggets of wisdom he learned in his career that it has never occurred to him to apply to his own family ?!?
monkey like the string bean comment. Yes definitely genetic component me and DH were likewise stringy!
No impressive injuries sorry! Just grazed face and bruised leg. Not quite Jonny Hoogerland degree of bravery here. Nothing hit me (apart from the Tarmac) and I wasn't going very fast

mandbaby

I agree with what you write about the book, I also was reading it thinking hard about any past issues that might affect my parenting, I haven't found that many, but I have realised a lot of my parenting has been inflenced by family/friends. I have seen people let kids basically lead their lives (in terms of choosing what/when to eat where/when to go to sleep etc), and I think with dd1 I probably went too far the other way.
Things I have considered as given I am now questioning and trying to decide if they are really important to me and my family life or am I doing it just because it is what i see in my circle of friends? Hope it makes sense!

Anotehr book I'm finding very useful is "when kids push your buttons", it explains how to find out what our buttons are, and why kids seem to do that, the fact that we all ahve an agenda (getting to work on time, learning to put shoes on by ourselves), and they often conflict, which is when we get frustrated at our kids. seems very obvious written down like that, but she goes into some detail and it's been very insightful for me. I find it helps having a bit more patience when I'm in a hurry and they insist on putting shoes on by themselves and similar stuff.
It does make me sad that I should need a book to learn to see life through my toddlers' eyes (and that I had to get to no3&4 to get 'it'), I wonder why some people just do it instinctively and some don't.

I am struggling with the ignoring ds' hitting tbh, it's easier if I'm with them playing but of course he always chooses teh moment I'm making dinner, hanging the washing, going for a wee, getting a glass of water etc etc, to strike. so if I'm peeling a potato, or i'm midwee my first freaction is yelling, then I go and pick up his sister, but I've already shouted. (by the way when I shout stop, he just hits harder

sorry for the me me post, I ahve little time, and if I stop and read properly I'll never post. Hope to catch up properly next time!

I think the stuff in When Your Kids Push Your Buttons is very non instinctual, actually, and I'm usually the kind of person who sees things from the other person's point of view, probably far too much most of the time (that old situation of everyone else's feelings being important but not your own!) I just think sometimes it's so intense and neverending parenting little ones that it's easy to forget that they might have feelings or opinions about things of their own.

Does he get a consequence for hitting Claire? Maybe you could increase if/when you see him do it harder on purpose? Why do you think he's doing it - is it for attention if he's only doing it when you're not around? (Or maybe he just knows you'll step in if you are!) - is it frustration/jealousy or is he just doing it for no apparent reason?

My DH doesn't smack but he is far more punishment-oriented than me. It's like it's his default and he doesn't know what to do without it. The other day he asked DS to pick up a sweet wrapper, DS said no, so DH said "Do it now or I throw away your other sweets". It worked and DS wasn't upset or bothered by the threat but I was annoyed because that's usually a threat that we only use to stop him coming out of his room when he's been put there to calm down.

I'd probably have put the wrapper in DS' hand and he would have done it with no need for any threats at all. Or just kept reminding him or asked him if he wasn't going to do it now when he was going to do it. It's a wrapper so it's not majorly important that it's done right now but DH has an idea that DS should be obeying him instantly which I don't agree with!