Does anyone else want to come and be a better parent with me?

[AnotherMonkey]

I've just deleted my original post in an attempt to be more positive.

I'm very low tonight, both of mine (4.5 and nearly 2) are pushing me so far beyond my limits at the moment.

So instead of posting my rant of misery, I wondered if anyone felt like joining me in choosing one thing to be less crap at at time?

Tomorrow, I am going to begin by taking it all less seriously. I'm going to try really really hard not to shout at all (this is difficult because DS is deaf at the moment and often does things which are not safe or bloody annoying but I'm going to find ways around it if I can). Essentially I'm going to try to take a step back and instead of letting poor behaviour bring me down, I'm going to try to isolate problems so that they can be dealt with. I might even make a list. I like lists.

(This evening was so bad I never want to see my neighbours again. I'm quiet, smart and even tempered in real life. Tonight our house must have sounded like a war zone. Or the screaming toddler equivalent. It's shit and it has to change).

Well last night went well - put DD in a proper chair (not high chair) and she seemed to enjoy being able to eat with us.

But she slept terribly (illness; nightmare; clock change?! Who knows?) which meant I was up half the night and the only way to settle her was to lie down by the side of her bed until she fell asleep.

This morning I was really tired therefore and asked DH to actually get up first (by which I meant also deal with dressing and breakfasting DD, which is usually my job). Then I got an earful from DH about how tough HIS life was - constant work; no holidays; all he wants to do is give up work and walk on the hills (note no mention of spending more time with me and DD). Well, I'm afraid I just completely lost it .
Which means we are now not talking. Am I really being unreasonable? (Whole new thread I know, but just need to vent to a nice audience!) And then he said all I did was shout - and I've been trying so hard. I just want to cry!

Hope everyone else is ok - sounds like you are all doing much better than me.
Back to square one - try not to let the thread down!

BlueEye, I hope things are going ok for you today.

(((Scout))) that sounds rubbish, and more than a bit selfish on your DPs part I don't think you're being unreasonable at all. You don't lose your count if you shout at unreasonable DPs, we can call it strategic. :)

Nellie, great job last night. DS goes to bed at some point between about 7.15 and 7.45, but he's awake at 6am or just after. It sounds like the amount of sleep they need is pretty similar.

Easter holidays here at the end of this week. I have to admit I'm a bit nervous. Really don't want to undo all the good work!

(((Scout))) that's just rubbish. Why are men sometimes so disconnected from what's going on! Makes me cross and no, I don't think you lose your points for shouting at him. The night before last after the awful bedtime, I was so down all evening and at one point DH said to me "what's the matter with you?" Completely oblivious. I snapped at him, that what was the matter was I didn't know how to parent my child anymore to which he didn't know what to say and I just went to bed because I didn't have the energy to think about why it is he doesn't get it.
Hope you have a better day today.
DS2 up being sick this morning so am working from home to give him some attention and cuddles.

Oh Scout that sounds hard :( It sounds like a bit of a case of competitive tiredness - I'm not meaning that in a bad way or that you're doing something wrong - it just happens when you're both so stressed out that you really need the other's support but don't have the capacity to give any support. So you end up kind of screaming "Look at me, I need support more than you!" at each other which isn't ultimately helpful. Gaaah.

Only way to break the cycle is to be the first one to be nice but probably try not be totally pushover nice, but hint that you expect support too! Hopefully you can get to a point where you can both talk about feeling overwhelmed and maybe plan for either a holiday or a change in circumstance in the future or

This is totally different because it is a parent/child not husband/wife, but I used to always get really stressed out and angry at DS when he whined and moaned about carrying one shopping bag. We didn't have a car and I often carried a week's shopping home, in my backpack, carried in two full bags in my arms and sometimes something light but awkward being held on top too. I would give DS a bag full of crisps or something to get him used to the idea that we share and help out and he would just piss and moan about it all the way home "It's not fair. Why do I have to carry this, it's sooooooo heavy, I can't do it" etc etc. I'd end up really moody and snapping "Well here have this one instead, I'll swap!" or "I don't care, my bag is far heavier than yours, stop moaning"

One day I must have been reading a parenting website or something or feeling in an unusually good mood, because I remember thinking "Okay, don't say that. Let's try a different approach." and I said "Yes darling, it's so hard to carry all of these bags all the way home, isn't it? I'm finding it hard too. I wish somebody else could carry the bags for us." DS to my astounding surprise didn't moan back but said "Yeah. I think I need a little rest actually and then I'll be okay." I didn't panic at the thought of delays like I usually would and I said "Hmm, OK. Can you make it to that bus stop over there? Then we'll have a quick rest and then walk the rest of the way home." He ran off with a new-found burst of energy, we had a 10 minute rest and a drink which lightened the shopping ever so slightly and he didn't moan any of the rest of the way home

I guess the point of my story is, sometimes acknowledging that others are struggling helps them to be more open to the fact that you're struggling too. I don't know if it works on husbands, but I try to do this with DH. If he comes home saying "Ugh I'm so tired, I've had a stressful day" and I'm tired and stressed too I try to say "Oh that sucks. I'm knackered as well. Early night?" rather than going with what my instinct sometimes tells me "YOU'RE tired??" We are disgustingly loved-up and newlywed though so please shoot me if I'm being unhelpful

I had replies to others but I was on the train... I'll work my way backwards.

Nellie - I like the boat on the sea idea.

I definitely think the laughing is a more nervous/involuntary reaction. I remember once being told off by a babysitter and she told me to say sorry about something or other, I said "Sorry" but in a really small voice and it came out sounding really grunty and in my nervous state I found it so funny that I could not stop laughing. She got really cross and said she would tell my mum I had been naughty :( I was upset but I couldn't explain why I was laughing. So for me the laughter is a cue to either tone it down a bit or give it some time, although DS does sometimes laugh in an actual gloaty way and not a nervous way at all

Sparkly - perhaps you could say something along the lines of "DH have you noticed that often when you speak to DS lately you're using quite negative language?" That way you're not actually accusing him or anything or criticising, you're just stating a fact and it gives him a chance to notice it himself or just think about why he might be doing it or justify it with a reason or whatever really. I tend to think that men don't really think about individual parts of their parenting anywhere near as much as we do. At least I have this impression about most dads. They just get on with it while we agonise! However was talking to DH the other night and he said that he feels both of us have grown and changed and become better parents, so that's interesting. Maybe he does think about it more than I realise.

AM I think that's what I feel about shouting too. Sometimes it's bad shouting, and sometimes it's necessary shouting. I'm not sure that shouting in itself is some awful thing. I do agree that there's a way of shouting which is horrible and the DC switch off but I don't know that it's reasonable to stop all shouting ever.

About a different scoring system, I like the one in "The happiness project". This is the part of her website about it. www.gretchenrubin.com/get-started/get-started/

Her goals are about happiness in general but I think you could make one about parenting. She had twelve different areas to focus on over a year-long period, so you could either choose one area to focus on a month, but make it less than twelve - off the top of my head:

Shout less
Spend more quality time with the children
Get out of the house more
Instil a sense of

It's basically a way of organising your thoughts about what you actually want to achieve, and then breaking them down into manageable goals. So for example a goal of "get out more" could be buying a season pass for swimming or a local zoo and then working out how many times a month you need to go to make it worth it and make that an aim.

You score each day/week/month on how well you did on the goals, and the crunch point, you don't expect to be perfect. Just working towards the goal is an achievement since it's better than what went before.

You probably have to read the book to get a better sense of it. Maybe I can try to explain it better if that's confusing (aware I still haven't done the bit from WYKPYB I said I would! I have work tonight, will probably get to it on the weekend.)

Interesting reading tonight - lots of wise words from letsgo and bertie (amongst others). I am meant to be working tonight but I have done an hour and I am too knackered to concentrate so quick MN and to bed.

I also don't think all shouting is bad (although my DH would agree) - sometimes you need to raise your voice to get attention, for safety reasons etc. I am trying to focus on not shouting in a negative manner (if that makes sense) ie not really having an unnecessary go at them when another approach would have been better.

If it makes you feel better scout my DH got up at 830 this morning - just as I was leaving on the school run! No reason - just a lazy arse. But it is so hard when these things make you mad inside and then DS was wittering in my ear in the car (when I was still inwardly seething re DH) and I snapped at him and it wasn't really his fault. I did apologise but it happens too often - Dh winds me up - the kids suffer.

Bed for me too, have done some work and now have a headache. Kids still awake and around but bathed and sleepy and winding down. Hope you've all had a peaceful cuddly bedtime with your lovely toddlers and big kids.

Scout, I don't think YABU at all and i totally sympathise. I used to leave Stbxh in bed every morning as well as doing all the night wakings and he told me towards the end that he really resented me having a lie-in at the weekends I have no magic solutions or words of wisdom as really made me see red! Hope you're talking again and, more importantly, he apologised.

I agree re not all shouting is bad shouting... and not all quiet behaviour is good either - it can be quite menacing (and when kids go very quiet... well, you just know they're up to something ).I like the idea from Legs so will endeavour to try that next week.

I am sure you've tried this Monkey but do you take food with you at pick up time? We are always the last to leave the school and it used to involve lots of cajoling and tears and some cracking tantrums. Now I'm normally armed with a cereal bar or the like and whilst its not perfect, gives them something else to concentrate on (as well as raising their blood sugar a bit - i know i am dreadful when i'm hungry!)

Hope DS2 is better Nellie and DS1 has settled into his pre-school nicely.

Here's to a stress free Thursday

I completely agree about the competitive tiredness. Me and DH do that too, and when it happens now I can see it coming, but am too damn tired to do anything about it :) we are getting on SO much better since our nighttimes have improved but we do get snappy at each other if we're having a particularly tough weekend or had a bad night.

Bertie, thanks for the happiness project link. I'm really interested in that, I'll read it properly later.

Nellie is DS2 any better today?

I'm finding that my list (about the qualities I would like to have as a parent) is really helping me to make more informed decisions when dealing with the little stuff. It doesn't mean that I do everything perfectly (haha ), but I'm much more aware of the situation and my feelings around the situation.

Here's what I've been thinking about this week. My mum's world is very small. She has her own very limited perspective (mostly based around diet, possible illnesses or allergies and stories about people she knows, ideally with a sad or pitying theme) and really doesn't seem to be able to show an interest in anything which can't be brought immediately back to these themes (or her little world generally).

I realised recently that in an average week, I couldn't tell you what had been in the news. My little world has different themes but I'm a bit scared that I am turning into my mother. I absolutely do not want to turn into my mother and I don't want to bring my kids up in this way either.

I want to try to get into the habit now of opening our eyes to what is going on outside our front door, and I'm thinking about small ways of making this appropriate to DS and even DD at this stage.

I read a blog post this morning about sponsoring a child and I think this might be a great idea for DS now and then DD when she's ready (photos, letters to each other, DS can decide who he would like to sponsor and the regular updates are potentially a great conversation opener). Not sure if it's a bit early for him but I'm going to look into it.

DS and I talk a lot (when I can get a word in around whichever role play is going on at the time!) so I can look more consciously at chatting not just about him.

Trying not to make it sound like another Thursday homework assignment but I really want to know what you all think! Did you have this sense of wider awareness growing up and do you want it for your DCs and have you got any good suggestions?

Letsgo, I hope your headache has settled

And fushandchups, it's a really good point, I need to try to remember to keep some snacks in the car. He does get super grumpy if his blood sugar is low - always has - so that makes really good sense.

Oh and I forgot to say - DH downloaded Raising Boys the other day (DH! I know! We hadn't even discussed it ). I read a bit but actually found it quite uncomfortable. I think this is mostly a combination of the bizarre negativity and nursery guilt which overcame me during the first chapter.

Haven't decided whether to persevere with it yet - does it get better or will I continue to be annoyed?

monkey I've not read the raising boys book but one about girls got taken straight back to the library. I just found the gender generalisations too irritating to even read it!
My 13 year old has taken to reading any 'parenting' book I leave lying around. (She couldn't stomach it either.) When I asked why she was reading parenting books she looked at me hard and muttered darkly "know your enemy....."
Now if I employ a book sourced tactic she tries to spot it!
Snack at school pickup is a good tip. Or how about bringing a character from home to 'meet' him, a Lego or playmobil firefighter or something like that?
bertie I'm not sure about the happiness project...is it just me or does the phrase 'the First Splendid Truth' sound a bit chairman Mao and cultural revolution? I'd rather be lazy actually and have the useful bits distilled through this thread than actually read it all and work out what's worth doing.
On the subject of getting up, DH wakes up when I bring him a on my work days. then he makes sure the kids get lunches and breakfast and sees them off to school. On my days off he wakes up when I bring him a and I get the kids lunch,brekkie etc.....
fush I completely know what you mean about kids being up to something when it all goes quiet.

Yes the terms are annoying and cutesy. It's American Self Help syndrome, really, annoyingly cheerful and upbeat and everything has to be branded. I fear the website doesn't explain itself very well, one of those annoying things where you have to read the book because it gets complicated to explain. I'll have a go but wednesday to friday is death time for me.

Thanks for the support all. DH and I now ok again. He is a good dad, but hates his job and resents that I am p-t, so sometimes that all spills out.

fush I agree food and water at school pick up time is vital. Means we get home without argument.

monkey my mother was a nightmare for other reasons! but something she did do with us as kids was to take us to walk round a really grotty area near where we lived when we were growing up so we knew how fortunate we were. I think sponsoring a child is a great idea.

Letsgo I'm starting to really like your DD! Haven't returned to the RB book yet, I think it may be joining the unfinished club.

I've sorted out the child sponsorship, I'm pretty excited about that actually. Waiting for the welcome packs to arrive before I introduce the idea to DS and he can write his first postcard over Easter.

I'm checking the news each morning, it's like feeling a little part of my brain waking up again.

We had to leave the library in disgrace today, DD is such a monkey at the moment. We're warming up nicely for the terrible twos! We do seem to have turned a corner with DS at home though, which is brilliant.

monkey you are so thoughtful about all this, I think a lot of people just go from day to day doing 'autoparent'. I know I did for a long time. Probably only when you hit against something (or a small child starts hitting you..) do you have to really do some work (ie: thinking hard about problems, their root causes and what combination of attitudes and actions will help to solve or manage them, not digging potatoes kind of work, but equally exhausting....)
I've been reading 'confident children' by Gael Lindenfield and in the last chapter she talks about exactly what you are trying to do. it is all about helping them find their wings. Showing them that you engage with the wider world is part of that. There is also a 'dealing with conflict' chapter which I think has some good ideas. I need to reread it all.

The AHA (cant read that without thinking 'Alan Partridge') site page about a self willed child rang a few bells.. that is my youngest. Hang on to your hats people they don't get any less self willed as they get older. My first two just pretty much 'do as they are told' and accept my authority with only the occasional disagreement. DD3(12) however will push, and push and push and push and PUSH to get things done the way she thinks they should be done. And she has always been like this. I do wholeheartedly agree with the advice on the aha site. She is also terrific company, organised, self sufficient and achieves a lot.
Bertie I will try getting that book from the library if they have it. I trust your recommendations!
re: competitive tiredness. aah yes us too! not so much these days. they do start to sleep in at some point, honest!
Have a great weekend everyone!

Thanks, letsgo. We've all gone a bit quiet, I hope that's a sign that things are a bit more peaceful?!

Would love to know how everyone's getting on. I need to brush up on toddler tantrums but we're going away for a week over Easter to see family, so sleep will be worse but the days should be easier! Packing today, I'm rubbish at packing. I really shouldn't be on MN!!

I have a post in the making but I have to keep leaving it and coming back to it! It's one based on the Happiness Project but skewed a bit for parenting. I will get around to the Buttons one at some point too.

Had a really nice day with DS today :) We went around the easter market here. I tried to listen to his cues a bit - ie there was a little petting zoo with goats, sheep and rabbits and donkeys and he wasn't interested because he wanted to go to the sweet stall and I wanted to insist that he looked at the animals first. But I thought, OK, let's go and look at the sweets. He bought some sweets and then because he had nothing on his agenda he was happy to look at the animals and interested in them. So I feel like he's not very good at delaying things and looking at something while his attention is taken away by something else but I guess that's probably quite normal for his age group.

Not peaceful here, I'm afraid. Have had ridiculously stressful evenings, with the usual tidying up ructions escalating beyond all proportion.

In other news, I'm hoping to go on a taster session for the wellbeing service next week. Off for a conference for a few days this week, leaving boys with DH - one way to avoid conflict...

Oh no Blue, sorry to hear that :( Isn't it funny how we all have lots of stuff going on but most of us seem to have one particular sticking point.

I'll be really interested to hear how you get on at the wellbeing service. I hope you get a bit of time to recharge at the conference.

Bertie I'm really looking forward to reading your post-in-the-making! I haven't had time to go over that happiness website properly and really can't pretend I'm going to read any more self-improvement books any time soon, I'm reaching saturation point!

I really want to write about what happened tonight, I actually feel a bit shaky-emotional (nearly cried at the Aptimal advert when I came downstairs ) and I think those of you on this thread probably know and understand how far we've come to get to this point.

I took DS up to bed and something toilet-related happened - this has been one of the longest running control issues we've had with DS and I still don't actually know quite what the problem was tonight. I could feel things starting to escalate again. I've just tried to explain the whole thing but it makes really boring reading, it's so long. The short story is that I managed to stay really calm and let him know that I was on his side, but that I wouldn't let him hit me or slam doors or waste this much time when it was time to go to bed. The big differences were:

• He knew that limits were in place but that I was still on his side. For the first time, while I just sat and waited by his door and he hid behind it, this little hand reached out to mine and he actually tried to connect while he was still in the middle of it.

• It took a while but we managed to get through to the other side without him ever reaching supersonic.

At the end, we were curled up on the bed and I was stroking his hair. I whispered to him that I am always on his side. Him and Daddy and DD are my best friends and I am always* on his side. He went really, really still like he was taking it all in. I told him that I loved him so much and he said it back and he was so sincere I nearly sobbed on him right there. And then he went to sleep.

Honestly, I just want to cry, but mostly in a good way! It's a strange mix of joy that we've come so far and fear at ever not being able to be there for him. Nothing can prepare you for all this, I used to be tough :)

After my triumphant night last night, today was shit.

Again, the constant drip drip drip of tantrums and resistance, feeling tired and stressed about things I need to get done but simply can't until they've gone to bed when I know I'm going to have to do it through exhaustion, meant that by bedtime I was losing it. Tonight was basically the How Not To version of last night. DS also managed to wake DD up this time so then I needed to settle her too and I've been grumpy with DH so he's now being grumpy with me and I'm now writing this because my brain is frazzled and I'm putting off the stuff that really actually does have to be sorted out tonight. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrggggggghhhhhhhh.

Aware that I may be talking to myself a bit now but really hoping that some of you will be round over Easter as I've got a feeling it's going to be challenging!

Uuurgh.

Hi Monkey - that sounds like such an amazing breakthrough. I welled up reading that. We have all come such a long way and it is worth reflecting on. These moments are so unique to each of us but the common theme is being able to suddenly see through the haze, reach out to our dc's and hold on to them when they need it. It is truly amazing and yet so simple. It gets us back on track and gives us something to cling to when things get rough again. Enjoy that moment :)
Sorry for being quiet - we have had visitors and now have some more so we're keeping busy. The boys are actually getting on pretty well considering how they have been recently. DS1 is really enjoying school and it makes a world of difference although we have yet to crack the sibling fighting which is the bit that still makes me feel sad. Getting there little babystep by little babystep.
Blue - hope things are on the up soon and that the wellbeing session works out for you.

X post, monkey. Cling onto the feeling from last night and remember that is what is at the heart of it. The rubbish days will come and go but you know that when it comes down to it you have what it takes to hold on to them and guide them through